Well the thing is SoC damage is ok, its just not ment for Single Target DPS. Imagine how much AoE Damage u wouldve done if SoC single target DPS was awesome. When it comes to SoV, it is superior on single target DPS once its stacked to 5/5. Stacking from 1 to 5 and maintaining it can be a problem if u have to swith a lot. Also, once u switch from SoV to any other Seal u lose the 41-42% aditional Holy Damage and u keep only the DoT dmg from it which is not worth cos that aditional Holy Damage is what makes SoV great... SoR is mainly for single target DPS fights when u cant get full use of SoV.
That is why u should use diferent Seals in diferent situations.
LK 25m hc is a perfect example.
Phase 1 u dont have to switch targets and u want to push LK asap. SoV is the best choice here.
Phase 2, u switch from SoR to SoC, back to SoR and again SoC, depending if u have to nuke LK (SoR) or u have to DPS the Valks (SoC).
Phase 3, this one is good for both SoR and SoV. If u have a fast wep and a shield u should equip those before going out of Frostmourne chamber and get 5/5 SoV on boss asap, switch back to two hander and pew pew. If u dont have that 1.5speed wep, u can go SoR with ur two handed wep and play it safe.
Transition phase. Depending on how fast Ragings die u can chose eather one of the 3 Seals for them.
In 1st transition phase since the spawn slower u can use eather SoV or SoR. If u dont have a fast wep and a shield for stacking 5/5 SoV asap, use SoR only.
In 2nd transition phase u should go for SoR at start. When there are 2+ ragings alive swith to SoC untill they are all dead. This also counts for 1st transition phase if the overall raid DPS is low and u cant kill ragings before LK spawns another one.
SoV > SoR > SoC when it comes to a longer period of time when u single target DPS.
SoR > SoC > SoV when it comes to a short period of time u have on 1 target.
SoC > SoR > SoV when it comes to 2+ target DPS.
When u have to swith constantly on adds or something else: Marrowgar and spikes, Lady and Adds, Profesor and Oozes, BPC, VDW, Sindra tombs in air phase and p2, if u cant maintain SoV stacks, u should use SoR. If u have a slightest doubt u can lose SoV stacks just fak it and go SoR.
If u glyph it, SoR will do slightly less overall DMG than SoV (if u can keep it constantly on the target u are dpsing) when it comes to single target DPS but it will do wonders kill those adds, spikes, oozes a lot faster.
If u like to tryhard u can always switch from SoV to SoR if u want to burst another target and go back to SoV afterwards.
U can test the diference in Seal Damage urself on a dummy in Ironforge or Silvermoon. When u are rdy to burst pop Wings and DPS the dummy untill the Wings CD is over. Repeat with another Seal and compare the Damage. Do it multiple times if u want to be sure, go for a 4 minute test with poping Wings 2 times, but numbers are ussualy always the same. When u are checking the recount mainly watch the Seal Damage, that way u can see how the 3 Seals behave when it comes to single target DPS.
Glyph SoR and dont use Consecration if u have mana issues, also use Plea. :D
I know i repeat myself a lot when it comes to this subject, and im sorry, but aparantly ppl still use SoV even tho they cant get more than 3-4 Stacks on the target before it dies. Also, if u are doin some speed kills and the fights last less than a minute and u are on Ret paladin duty, Glyphed SoR > Crusader Strike > Wings > Judgment and go nuts...
Gl and Hf. :D
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Wind of Northrend
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Member
Will post updated charts with correct judgement.
Edited: February 8, 2017 Reason: Removed DPS charts using wrong Seal of Righteousness to avoid confusion.
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Wind of Northrend
I think u had the wrong Seal of Righteosness on when u did the tests cos Judgment of Righteousness should hit like a truck.
And glyph does matter a lot. :D
Armory Link: http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
SoR - http://imgur.com/a/6NldH
SoC - http://imgur.com/a/zH92d
I DPSed for ~2 minutes on Ironforge hc dummy.
Self buffed with Might and Crusaders Aura.
Used Cancelaura Chaos Bane macro aswell.
Crusader Strike > Wings > pew pew > Wings > stoped exactly when 2nd Wings CD ended both times.
Edit:
SoV - http://imgur.com/a/TdF2I
(1 Judgment was RESISTED, yaaay!)
SoV rotation:
1.5sec axe + Shield > Crusader Strike > Shield of Righteousness > Consecration > Equip SM >
Wings > pew pew > Wings > Stahp.Edited: February 3, 2017 Reason: Added SoV recount thingy...
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Member
Does anyone know any active Horde Raiding guild in frostwolf? :$
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Member
You're right, I didn't realize that old Trinity bug was still around and I probably had SoR on one of my bars since level 1. I took the charts out since judgement damage was inaccurate and I didn't want them confusing anyone reading the guides.
I'll rerun the same tests with the other SoR. My money is still on Seal of Command for single target even with the Shadowmourne proc rate bug.
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Wind of Northrend
How is Shadowmourne proc rate bugged tho?
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Member
All right, I’m back with another round of seal testing. This time I made sure to use the non-bugged Seal of Righteousness which did elevate Judgement of Righteousness damage as you can see in the screenshots. I also reduced the duration of each test from 120 seconds to 30 seconds since those shorter fights are more relevant to our discussion. Beyond 30 seconds SoV starts taking off and the comparison becomes moot.
Summary
Yes, Seal of Command is the designated AOE seal but I still believe it is superior to Seal of Righteousness in higher end gear even on single target fights (iLevel 251+ gear). SoComm scales with our crit rate while SoR cannot crit in 3.3.5. Ret paladins can get into the 50%-60% crit range when geared and that translates to double damage on SoComm more than half the time or zero gain for SoR which didn't start critting until patch 4.2.0.
The tests below show that total DPS on a single target using glyphed SoR damage is very much in line with SoComm DPS.
SoComm was the best seal on 2 of the 7 tests. SoR was best 3/7 and SoV was best 2/7. But overall, there's no earth shattering difference in DPS over 30 seconds. On longer fights SoV will completely dwarf other seals. I can post that test data later.
Notice how out of the three seals, SoV over 30 seconds was the least spikey. It had lower DPS on average for the first 30 seconds but if the fight drags longer you'll be glad to have those 5 stacks on the target.
I think it’s a terrible idea to be juggling between SoR, SoComm and SoV on a short fight for what at best could be a marginal gain for the following reasons:
- My testing shows glyphed SoR’s average damage to be at best a 1% increase from SoComm on single targets. This is without raid buffs which increase our crit rate and that only benefits SoComm.
- That 1% is not worth using SoR’s glyph 100% of the time. I know there aren’t any other amazing glyphs but I would still take Exorcism or Consecration glyphs which are marginal gains all the time. In a straight tank and spank DPS meter fight (like Festergut), the SoR glyph is a terrible way to min/max. I would take a better absolute max potential over possibly doing 1% more DPS on a 30 second fight occasionally under very specific circumstances.
- These guides are written to help newer paladins get a better understanding of their class. No one farming LOD is here looking for tips on gemming and enchanting. So it may not be a great idea to advise these newer paladins to be seal juggling during the Defile/Valk phase in HC 25 LK when a small positioning mistake will wipe a raid just because you may do an extra 1% on a Valk.
- Switching seals costs GCDs. On a fight like Marrowgar for example, decent raids will have those spikes down by the time I target one, taunt it, hit it with a ranged Exo and possibly get close enough to judge. I can do all this damage on my way to a spike without worrying about wasting a GCD to possibly gain 1% sometimes. On the run back to Marrowgar I would rather refresh my Sacred Shield or use Divine Plea instead of wasting another GCD switching to SoV.
- The retail rule of thumb was SoComm starts surpassing SoR on single targets once you get an iLevel 251 weapon. That's irrelevant of Shadowmourne's proc rate with SoComm. I know the favorite reply for comments like that is "this is not retail." Right, but it is pretty damn close. If you look at RAWR data or old retail DPS charts you'll see we are very much in the ballpark.
Test Setup
- Target: Heroic Dummy in IF.
- Duration: 30 seconds using each seal; SoR, SoV and SoComm.
- Number of Tests: RNG makes a big difference with a test this short. I tried to even things out by doing 21 tests; 7/seal. Then I sorted each seal’s test data from highest to lowest to make results more comparable. The order doesn’t matter; RNG determines whether you hit the upper end or lower end of the range.
- FCFS Priority: Judgement, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike, Consecration. I limited the use of Consecration to twice per 30 second test to make sure I don’t drop one last second which would skew test results by keeping me in combat longer after walking away from target. Did not use wings since it’s unrealistic to expect wings to be available on every 30 second fight and I did not want to wait 2 minutes between each test.
Recount screenshot shows correct judgement name for SoR. I can post more screenshots if we need them.
Edited: February 8, 2017
- My testing shows glyphed SoR’s average damage to be at best a 1% increase from SoComm on single targets. This is without raid buffs which increase our crit rate and that only benefits SoComm.
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Member
I'm not sure how you came up with that. SoV absolutely destroys other seals if you are able to stay on your target. For one, it scales much better than SoR with raid buffs since it can crit. Two, it has amazing librams to go with it as opposed to whatever mediocre libram you will have to switch to with SoR. Three, it has a phenomenal glyph that goes with it as opposed to the mediocre SoR glyph and my guess is you are no longer expertise capped any time you switch to SoR, unless you are also switching to Gloren but that's another huge nerf from Shadowmourne.
Here are 2 minute test results showing SoV, SoComm vs glyphed SoR.
Edited: February 8, 2017
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Member
Hey, got a question, lately my judgement spells have been resisting my targets in ICC as ret, I can't remember it doing that before the wipe and I just recently returned... Is it broken or fixed should I get spell penetration?
Also I have the BIS agility list set provided in this guide with kekmourne yet im not expertise capped, I got 126 expertise rating, that's 106 from the HC legs and +20 from a gem, it only reduces my dodge chance by 3.75% but 30 rating should be 1% right? meaning 120 = 4% + 2.5% from the seal glyph landing me at 6.5, but instead i'm missing 0.25% for some reason and I do see myself dodging every now and then.
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Wind of Northrend
@Gankmaniac
Judgments resists are linked to the Jugment effect (Light, Wisdome, Justice debuff) the damage itself is not getting resisted. Just noticed that while doin some tests on a dummy. :D
Expertise is buggy after the most recent changes and u get dodged from time to time even on 26 exp (dodge cap), u cant do much about it but to wait and hope for soon fixes.
@Valimus
U missed the whole point and diference btwn SoR and SoC.
SoR has high burst potential and it doesnt require u to be 24/7 on the target.
SoC has great dmg aswell but it requires u to be on the target constantly.
Main reason is Judgment damage diference and the more procs on TaJ and CB when u use SoR.
SoR has more stable constant dmg.
SoC depends on beeing sticky and crit % a lot.
http://imgur.com/a/7yMoD
http://imgur.com/a/lGQBc
Just check the diference in how much Manifest of Anger and Chaos Bane proced.
Check the diference in Judgment damage.
And notice the diference in Rightous Vengance.
I know that im nitpicking and that the diference is a bit less than 30k dmg when u look at 950k total dmg done, but my point was to show retri paladins that SoV is not BEST way to go on every fight. Belive it or not, **** ton of rets use SoV on fight such as Profesor Putricideand end up doin 5k DPS (Perfect fight in which SoR is far Superior over SoC is Profesor Putricide, test it on that fight and u will see that SoR wins every time).
And the main fight i suggested going from 1 to 2nd to 3rd and back to 1st Seal is Lich King 25m hc, and in it that Seal dancing makes wonders when it comes to my Ret DPS.
Overall, not to get too much into it cos there are **** ton of diferent play styles and one might work better for me, another might work better for someone else, just dont use SoV on fights in which u cant even stack it to 5/5. :D
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Field Medic Moderator
@ Gnimo, thanks for the input, but SoR being good for short uptimes on specific targets is already covered in the guide. I'm fairly certain that I covered this the last time I spoke to you here. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Member
Good day fellow paladins. I was planning to upgrade my paladin's equipment and i have 25 coins atm.
This is my current paladin equipment
4 set Sanc heroic with Fleshrending Gauntlets hc.
Ahn'kahar Neck HC (Str Hit Neck)
GSB agi cloak HC (Shadowvault Slayer's Cloak)
RS 25 leather agi wrist HC (umbrage armbands)
Coldwraith Links HC ( Str + Arp Belt)
RS 25 Plate Boots HC (Apocalypse's Advance)
RS 25 Agi Ring HC (Signet of Twilight)
Ashen Vengeace (agi)
Death's Choice HC
Taiaj HC
Glorenz HC
Which is the Optimal upgrade considering i have 0 Shadowfrost Shards on my SM quest.
Glorenz HC -----> Oathbinder HC
Death's Choice -------> STS HC (RS 25 Arp Trinket)
Thx for the help.
PS: I was planning to make the trinket change but i may be wrong so im seeking more input on this.Edited: February 14, 2017
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Dargenslayer
I would definetly grab Oathbinder over Glorenzelg here. DC HC to STS HC isn't as big of an upgrade compared to getting Oath over Gloren. You'll just have to put 1 20 expertise gem in your head (34 expertise dragon eye if you have JC to go slightly over cap rather than slightly below with the 20 for more reliability). It's 160 DPS more to grab Oath over Glorenz according to Rawr and it says that STS HC is 2 DPS worse than DC HC because you don't have enough ARP from the rest of your gear for the passive ARP it gives to be effective. When you get Oathbinder, than STS HC becomes about 20 DPS more than DC HC.
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Field Medic Moderator
@Allelouise, I'll have to agree with Dan here for the most part. Death's Choice and Sharpened Twilight Scale are very close to each other to begin with. So close, in fact, that they swap places depending on your gear as he's mentioned. The difference in weapons is more static, and the Oathbinder allows you to setup your expertise in a way that lets you be prepared for obtaining a Shadowmourne.
Make sure you hold onto that Glorenzelg, though. It can still be useful for PvP for a variety of reasons, even if for nothing else, weapon swapping.
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Member
Thanks for the in depth reply. Definitely getting oath over sts.
Yes, glorenz definitely for pvp.
I've a long way to go before getting SM so ill stick with oath for now, thx for the replies.
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