1. Hello Retradins,

    As for now I want to get ask 3 questions for optimizing the dps:

    1. As far as I tested on dummys and ICC 25 hc the Mail gloves are outperforming the plate ones somehow. Does someone have any obversations on that?
    2. Have someone tried the arp gear leather (with tosk, togc back and gloves with arp)?
    3. I was thinking of changing Berserking to Mongoose. Is it gonna be worth it? Someone tried it?

    Thanks in advance!

    Best regards,

  2. 1. From a purely DPS perspective plate gloves > mail ones (by a margin of less than 0.6 DPS according to Rarw for a 15 minute fight). I'd use mail ones on any long lasting fight (pmuch the only fights that matter) as they give you a substantial increase in mana, thus longevity and freedom to use absolutely any spell/ability you want, whenever you want.
    2. Pointless, it's not like arpen is useless, but the difference between the usefulness of Haste and Crit compared to Arp (as secondary stats) is non-trivial. In other words, going for a full arp setup won't be that bad, but it'll be worse than the actual BiS.. duh.
    3. No, it will not be worth it. Mongoose is roughly 100 dps behind berserking as an enchant for rets.

    P.S. Idk how you notice a dps difference between two items of the same ilvl when they're almost equal.
    Edited: February 21, 2018

  3. Well, maybe it's my imagination or the formation of the raids and the procs of the Divine Storm I am not sure at the moment. And I see more and more paladins playing with the mail ones from the high end raiding guild. I still can't understand it either. Today I will test it again to see how everything performs.

    Thanks for the fast answer!

  4. Mongoose vs Berserking is 120 Agi 30 Haste vs 400 AP, since they have the same PPM.

    As a Ret, you're not drawn to Agi unless it comes with copious amounts of Attack Power (all of your leather Agi pieces at Bis also come with significant amounts of AP). Agi by itself doesn't compare to Str or AP, because you don't get AP directly from Agi, unlike leather-wearers.

    Mail gloves vs Plate gloves is much too small a DPS difference to notice. People in end-game guilds like the mail ones because the mana helps a lot in not ooming on long fights like LoD or Halion.

  5. One stack of the libram is not at all comparable to a DS reset (DS also procs rings/trinkets/you name it). You'd start with wings regardless though, there's no reason to delay wings.
    From my expirience EoT libram is far superior on most of the encounters, so it does worth to start with CS and pop wings after.

  6. From my expirience EoT libram is far superior on most of the encounters, so it does worth to start with CS and pop wings after.
    The EoT libram doesn't benefit Crusader Strike. Even if it did, the difference is infinitesimally small. Changing your priority on the pull? Sure, go for it. But a tangible difference it will not make.

  7. From my expirience EoT libram is far superior on most of the encounters, so it does worth to start with CS and pop wings after.
    The point of my post was that starting with CS should not be done unless you want to lose out on potential dps and I just assumed that in this hypothetical situation we would be using EoF libram. To clarify though, you either start with DS and /startattack (if a 3% crit is present as Mercy nicely added) or you use Judgement (if it is not). In both cases you want to use wings. There's nothing to debate here.

    Otherwise it is also worth having the EoT libram, there are places where you should switch them up as the overtake of EoF is very slow.

  8. U have time for 2 Judgments with all Procs and Wings.
    U have time for 3 Judgments with Wings.

    If u just open with Judgment at start it will hit far less than if u CS > Judgment. U can test this urself on a dummy. That was my point...

    If u can squize DS before that Judgment and still cast 2(3) Judgments during Procs and Wings after that, it would be better to do so, especialy if u get another stack of SoV (10% more dmg on Judg).

    So, thats why i said:
    CS > Wings/DS > Judgment >...
    can be the best way to open.
    Test them all urself and see which one works the best i guess.

  9. Thanks you very much Mercy (and to all others replies)

  10. U have time for 2 Judgments with all Procs and Wings.
    U have time for 3 Judgments with Wings.

    If u just open with Judgment at start it will hit far less than if u CS > Judgment. U can test this urself on a dummy. That was my point...

    If u can squize DS before that Judgment and still cast 2(3) Judgments during Procs and Wings after that, it would be better to do so, especialy if u get another stack of SoV (10% more dmg on Judg).

    So, thats why i said:
    CS > Wings/DS > Judgment >...
    can be the best way to open.
    Test them all urself and see which one works the best i guess.
    Again, if someone else is providing the 3% crit, go for it.
    If not, you're delaying that crit buff for your entire group just so you can have an increase of 30 dps (or less). That's selfish and goes against the spirit of the guide.

  11. The EoT libram doesn't benefit Crusader Strike. Even if it did, the difference is infinitesimally small. Changing your priority on the pull? Sure, go for it. But a tangible difference it will not make.
    The point of my post was that starting with CS should not be done unless you want to lose out on potential dps and I just assumed that in this hypothetical situation we would be using EoF libram. To clarify though, you either start with DS and /startattack (if a 3% crit is present as Mercy nicely added) or you use Judgement (if it is not). In both cases you want to use wings. There's nothing to debate here.

    Otherwise it is also worth having the EoT libram, there are places where you should switch them up as the overtake of EoF is very slow.
    Again, if someone else is providing the 3% crit, go for it.
    If not, you're delaying that crit buff for your entire group just so you can have an increase of 30 dps (or less). That's selfish and goes against the spirit of the guide.
    Idea is to save your best damage for wings pop. So when tanks pull i run to the boss with nitro boots, place conce, CS+couple melee atacks to proc buffs+trinkets+build the seal(proc the libram)-> wings-> rotation. Ya, 1 stack of EoF libram is marginal, but if u use EoT one - 200 str is alrdy something, right? Like BL/HERO on start is delayed for few seconds as well, so everybody get on their positions, and since i use nitro boots i don't think delaying 3% crit is a problem. I dunno, it just feels that this way it works better for me (better burst), can't claim it tho.
    ____________________________________

    I have another question - on which encounters it does worth to keep the chaos bane buff (i mean solo target encounters)? Is there any difference from fight length or something? i keep this cancelaura thing on all the time, but it just feels like sometimes i have dps drops from what i'm used to.
    Edited: February 23, 2018

  12. You want to synch your Wings with the full proc of your trinket, ring and optionally cloak. You do not want to delay to 5 stacks of SoV. Delaying 3% crit debuff would be a much larger dps loss to the raid as a whole (yes even for 1 GCD) compared to the small increase in personal damage you'd get from using CS over judgement when you're at 0 or 1 SoV stack. That is why if there isn't a 3% crit debuff you use judgement, if there is DS + /startattack (in this order). Is this really hard to comprehend or what?

    Chaos Bane isn't worth keeping on any ST encounter and by extention on any multi-target encounter that doesn't involve useless AoE.

    Also this weird mentality people have in regards to what they claim to "notice" (this isn't directed at you in particular Princessochka) is simply absurd. I think what a friend of mine said the other day illustrates this nicely,

    "I went from leaning to the left side of my chair to leaning to the right and I saw a 3% increase in dummy dps over a 5 minute fight".
    Edited: February 23, 2018

  13. @Princessochka
    Its not worth delaying wings for 5 SoV stacks cos each stack deals a % of DMG aswell.
    As for Chaos Bane u should always cancel it.

    @Mercy
    1 gcd wont be too much since most of the classes need more than 1.5sec to start nuking the target (cast time of most spells take longer than 1.5sec, applying Diseases, 2x GCDs for 1st combo point and slice/roar, Hunters Mark into Sting, 1st Hit for Rage, and so on...).

    @Rifokelt
    U delay it for 1gcd if u start with DS aswell anyway.
    And as said, if u dont get DS reset for next 10 sec u kinda lose DPS if u do DS before anything.
    Its nothing hard to comprehend, both ways will provide with almost the same DPS, the only diference is:

    AA > CS > Judg > DS > CS > ...
    vs
    DS > AA > Judg > DS > CS > ...

    CS is safer and gives u 1 stack of Libram while DS doesnt but it deals a bit more dmg itself, which can be negotiable if u hit before CS cos of the DMG u get from seal and buffs...
    Edited: February 23, 2018

  14. You won't delay 1 GCD if the raid already has a 3% crit debuff from any source. The dps difference is small, yes, but just as BiS is BiS so is optimal, optimal.

    edit: Fixed sth.
    Edited: February 23, 2018

  15. You do not want to delay to 5 stacks of SoV.
    @Princessochka
    Its not worth delaying wings for 5 SoV stacks cos each stack deals a % of DMG aswell.
    I never said i'm building it to 5 lol
    I'm just applying it on boss so it ticks -> libram procs faster. Because mostly playing with EoT libram.
    Edited: February 23, 2018

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