Why not Aura Mastery for Prot Paladin?

[Bartalk]

I've been looking at many guides for Prot Paladin recently and almost all of them say unanimously to spec into Prot / ret talents and take zero points into the Holy tree.

However, on the private server that I play the consensus is completely opposite in that for end game raiding like ICC25 HC and RS 25HC you want to have Aura Mastery. I guess for fights like Sindy, LK, and Halion it's useful for abilities where you would want more magic resist and an extra cool down?

I'm by no means an experienced tank, and I definitely feel like for trash pulling Seal of Command would be really amazing, and I do like pursuit of justice but I don't really know of it's really necessary (do bosses even disarm us? If I have nitro boots do I really need pursuit?). I guess my question is why is it wrong to go down the holy tree?

If my threat on bosses isn't that bad or lacking wouldn't the extra CD be better then more threat generation? Should I really be worried about missing out on Seal of Command for trash? For what fights and specifically what abilities of bosses would you want AM over more threat?

I have a couple other questions like at what point should you go for 4 piece tier set over more armour. How much armour is too much? Would more stamina be better for ardent defender?

What abilities you need to worry about for tanking in ICC and Halion. How much expertise do you need for Halion. Is blade ward actually useless and if so which enchant to use on weapons?

Do I need judgements of the just? What about vindication? It seems like both of these can be covered by other classes but what about for fights where you don't have those classes? Would it be better to include these for 10 man HCs? Or in case you are missing the other classes? Like what about Halion where he can party reset? It seems like you would want to have judgements of the just to reduce the attack speed by 20%.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this. Of you think there is another place to post this please let me know and I'll direct my questions there.

[Beanlord]

I'll break up your post into separate pieces so I can try to answer your questions more accurately.

I've been looking at many guides for Prot Paladin recently and almost all of them say unanimously to spec into Prot / ret talents and take zero points into the Holy tree.

However, on the private server that I play the consensus is completely opposite in that for end game raiding like ICC25 HC and RS 25HC you want to have Aura Mastery. I guess for fights like Sindy, LK, and Halion it's useful for abilities where you would want more magic resist and an extra cool down?

There isn't anything wrong per se from specing into holy tree in order to get aura mastery and improved loh. A spec like that would look something like this,

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVGzMZV0tAbuMusIufdx

Points are highly debatable, however. For example, one could reasonably make the argument that One-Handed Weapon Specialization can be completely skipped and the points put towards Divinity (a talent that improves your survivability). Or that the two points in Judgements of the Just can be omitted as every 25 man raid already has a -20% attack speed reduction applied from dks (redundancy being important is the counter point here).

What you're mostly missing in the above example is Divinity and Vindication. Vindication being the more important of the two. It is, to put it mildly, extremely important for bosses with hard hitting melee strikes to be debuffed in terms of attack power. The effect is about on par with buffs such as Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude. An example of a fully defensive protection paladin would be something like this,

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZE0tAbukusIufdxfMz

Here you obviously have all the defensive talents you would care about from prot and ret tree, but you're lacking the buff and improved cooldown of loh and also the effect of aura mastery. To put it in simple terms, the sub holy tree is adequate for a paladin tank that will be off-tanking the vast majority of the encounter and is primarily there to provide external cooldowns to the main tank. A few of the reasons this spec fell out of favour here is that,

1) In 25 man raids you have roughly 3 paladins excluding the tanks which can rotate AM for the needs of the raid, which are generally Shadow/Frost/Fire AM in order to deal with raid-wide magic damage. Although, AM devo aura is something people do to give a tiny bit of AP to warriors on trivial bosses and is still a good chunk of extra EHP for the tank currently tanking the boss.
2) Improved loh, while good, can be used basically once per 2-3 fights. As a tank you do indeed want to take as many extra cooldowns as you can, but there's something to be said about redundancy (as I alluded to before) and consistency as well. Ideally when min-maxing you will rely on others to provide key buffs and debuffs. For example, no mage in their right mind will spec/gem/enchant an extra 3% hit rating on the off-chance that a moonkin and/or shadow priest will die and take the debuff with them. However, when tanking the philosophy of how to spec and gear is not quite the same and there is still a lot of value in taking AP reduction and AS reduction talents.
3) Lack of Divinity. This talent, while often disregarded by players, is actually a very good way to bump up your survivability. It affects every bit of trickle healing you receive (think rejuv, flash of light, earth shield, pom, lifebloom) allowing you to effectively be topped off better in between hits and buying more time for your healers to pick you up. The last part, by itself, is very valuable for a tank.
4) Prot paladins do actually main tank depending on raid configuration. Prot paladins main tank especially on solo tanking groups, mostly due to ardent. Seeing as you'd practically never do LoH on yourself (because of Forbearance), for such situations the talent is essentially worthless and you're spending 10 points just to get AM as opposed to spending no points in prot tree (no points as in no points required before reaching a certain tier) for Divinity and 10 points in ret tree to get the equivalent of 10% Phys. DR.

I'm by no means an experienced tank, and I definitely feel like for trash pulling Seal of Command would be really amazing, and I do like pursuit of justice but I don't really know of it's really necessary (do bosses even disarm us? If I have nitro boots do I really need pursuit?). I guess my question is why is it wrong to go down the holy tree?

SoC isn't necessary for anything, really. It will help somewhat with AoE threat, however, at high gear levels you're basically completely incapable of holding the threat of many mobs without the help of tricks and misdirection when faced against damage dealers. Pursuit of Justice isn't bad, but most of the time you aren't kiting anything. In fact on LoD even when changing from side to side in p3, damage dealers really appreciate it if you do it slowly enough that they can follow.

If my threat on bosses isn't that bad or lacking wouldn't the extra CD be better then more threat generation?

As a general rule of thumb, and note that this concept isn't game specific, if you can drop threat (meaning you can hold nubmer one threat spot without issues) in order to become tankier, do so. There is no downside.

I have a couple other questions like at what point should you go for 4 piece tier set over more armour. How much armour is too much? Would more stamina be better for ardent defender?

Most generally speaking, it's always good to go for 4 piece t10. It will provide enough extra avoidance, at high end gear, for your combined block and avoid to completely push normal attacks (of enemy targets) from the attack table. Meaning that the only possible outcomes when you take an AA from an enemyto be either a dodge, parry, miss or block. This essentially boils down to you having extra physical damage reduction. The cd isn't as good as dk/druid 4pT10, but it's good enough to not be skipped (maybe you'd skip it if replacing all 4 pieces from ilvl277 to the bare minimum of T10, idr what it was exactly).

Any armor past 49905 is completely useless. That value is not reachable outside of cooldowns and/or procs, however, so the real answer to your questions is that there isn't a point where you could have "too much armor". Now this doesn't mean that you should, for example, remove your Sindragosa trinket in favour of something like Glyph of Indomnability... After all, using common sense is part of the gearing process, but your question is very general so I can only give a general answer to it.

Stamina is your go-to stat for the most part. It has the most value when it comes to calculating EHP (you may also know this as "time to live"). There's basically only one instance in the end-game where you'd consider gemming something else and that is togc anub add tanking.

Like what about Halion where he can party reset?

I believe I answered the other questions tied to this already, so just for this part, you do want high levels of expertise, just in case he parry-hastes at an inopportune moment. To get it paladins resort to things like EoF chest, T10 legs, mithrios, vdw boots, expertise food and maybe even some gems. People are sort of divided on the issue of whether to go to such extremes, mainly due to losing out on other survivability stats. If you don't want to do that one thing you can do is to simply... stop attacking the boss. If you're at low health you can stop attacking and not risk parry-hasting Halion/Sindragosa or any other parry-hasting boss.

[Bartalk]

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I greatly appreciate all the information you have provided me here. I'll try to do the same thing you did and quote you throughout so that I can address each point you've made.

There isn't anything wrong per se from specing into holy tree in order to get aura mastery and improved loh. A spec like that would look something like this,

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVGzMZV0tAbuMusIufdx

This is more what my current spec looks like.
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sVVzZV0tAbuMusIufdxb

Points are highly debatable, however. For example, one could reasonably make the argument that One-Handed Weapon Specialization can be completely skipped and the points put towards Divinity (a talent that improves your survivability). Or that the two points in Judgements of the Just can be omitted as every 25 man raid already has a -20% attack speed reduction applied from dks (redundancy being important is the counter point here).

So should I just skip this talent altogether since I should always have a dk in the raid that is maintaining this debuff or should I keep it specced incase they aren't going to be there? Do all DK's refresh this debuff on the boss or not? I imagine for fights like LK or Halion not having 20% reduced attack speed is probably going to be pushing the dmg I would take to unbearable levels.

What you're mostly missing in the above example is Divinity and Vindication. Vindication being the more important of the two. It is, to put it mildly, extremely important for bosses with hard hitting melee strikes to be debuffed in terms of attack power. The effect is about on par with buffs such as Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude. An example of a fully defensive protection paladin would be something like this,

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZE0tAbukusIufdxfMz

Do warriors not also keep up the same sort of debuff with demoralizing shout or is that unreliable? Divinity I agree could be useful but I think it's less useful then the other talents like Aura Mastery. If you think like ok you have say 6 HoT's on you at a time and they heal for around 200-500 well 5 points isn't really going to be boosting the amount you get healed in between holy lights by that much. Say you get 2k hp per second in HoT's even at 5% extra that's still only an extra 100 hp per second. I think that's pretty negligible considering most paladins have a Holy Light cooldown of 1.3 seconds and you will be beacon of light of you are MT.

Here you obviously have all the defensive talents you would care about from prot and ret tree, but you're lacking the buff and improved cooldown of loh and also the effect of aura mastery. To put it in simple terms, the sub holy tree is adequate for a paladin tank that will be off-tanking the vast majority of the encounter and is primarily there to provide external cooldowns to the main tank. A few of the reasons this spec fell out of favour here is that,

I understand you can get AM from someone else in the raid, but say for the Halion encounter while you are tanking inside, you aren't guaranteed to have an extra pally in there. Not to mention DPS and Healing paladins aren't really keeping track of bosses attacks on the tank when they are more worried about raid wide mechanics. So you being able to AM for specific attacks seems to be undervalued here since you don't have to rely on someone else to save you from a potential crushing blow. So I kind of consider this a main tanking ability and not just for the off tank to have. Most raids on my server tend to have two paladin main tanks also. On top of that having an extra AM to keep its use on a 1 min CD seems great for certain bosses.

1) In 25 man raids you have roughly 3 paladins excluding the tanks which can rotate AM for the needs of the raid, which are generally Shadow/Frost/Fire AM in order to deal with raid-wide magic damage. Although, AM devo aura is something people do to give a tiny bit of AP to warriors on trivial bosses and is still a good chunk of extra EHP for the tank currently tanking the boss.

Yeah most raids do have multiple paladins that can pop AM but for boss attacks on the tank I find most paladins aren't really keeping track of those spells/abilities/attacks and instead are focusing on using AM for raidwide dmg. Also having the tank pop AM means 6% extra raid wide healing.

3) Lack of Divinity. This talent, while often disregarded by players, is actually a very good way to bump up your survivability. It affects every bit of trickle healing you receive (think rejuv, flash of light, earth shield, pom, lifebloom) allowing you to effectively be topped off better in between hits and buying more time for your healers to pick you up. The last part, by itself, is very valuable for a tank.

5 talent points for 5% extra heals seems like a lot to spend imo, especially when most Holy Light crits end up putting you into the overheal category.

4) Prot paladins do actually main tank depending on raid configuration. Prot paladins main tank especially on solo tanking groups, mostly due to ardent. Seeing as you'd practically never do LoH on yourself (because of Forbearance), for such situations the talent is essentially worthless and you're spending 10 points just to get AM as opposed to spending no points in prot tree (no points as in no points required before reaching a certain tier) for Divinity and 10 points in ret tree to get the equivalent of 10% Phys. DR.

Almost all main tanks on my server are prot paladins. As for the 10 points to get AM I get that it is a high cost but considering I think divinity is way too much for it's cost what are the real benefits of the ret tree spec. I'm already taking the 5% parry from ret tree, as well as the imp judgements to flush out my rotation. So to give up AM and 15% extra damage from my seals and their judge effects I would end up with something like this:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufzxfMd0f
or this:
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufzxfMzbf
Are the extra points that I am taking here really going to be better than AM? I realize it might make me a better add tank for trash and also generate more threat which could be very useful and the SoC can be very useful for tanking the adds on Halion and doing more valk dmg. I've never used SoC for add tanking but the way things are going in ICC it seems like trash pulls just blow because I'm constantly losing threat on targets I am not hitting and have to run around and constantly use my taunts all the time and even that isn't keeping adds on me all the time.

SoC isn't necessary for anything, really. It will help somewhat with AoE threat, however, at high gear levels you're basically completely incapable of holding the threat of many mobs without the help of tricks and misdirection when faced against damage dealers. Pursuit of Justice isn't bad, but most of the time you aren't kiting anything. In fact on LoD even when changing from side to side in p3, damage dealers really appreciate it if you do it slowly enough that they can follow.

Is this something I should just expect that when it comes to trash pulls I won't be able to hold onto all of the mobs? I keep feeling like I'm running around like a chicken with it's head cutoff trying to pull aggro from the dps on mobs that are running away to go kill them. It seems like I'm failing at my job here and that's why I'd kind of like to take Seal of Command here if it will help. I guess that I shouldn't really care though for trash pulls since bosses are more important but it feels like I'm failing at tanking when the adds just won't stay on me.

As for Pursuit of Justice I could do without the movement buff. I think I fair well enough without it and I get what you mean about moving the boss slowly on LoD since as a DPS you want to be able to follow behind at a consistent pace. I'm more curious about the 50% reduction in disarm effects though. Do we as tanks ever get disarmed by bosses? Does this effect stack with the titanium plating on our shield? Because the shield enchant seems to imply that it doesn't stack with any similar effects.

As a general rule of thumb, and note that this concept isn't game specific, if you can drop threat (meaning you can hold number one threat spot without issues) in order to become tankier, do so. There is no downside.

This seems like a good rule of thump. I'll consider things this way going forward.

Most generally speaking, it's always good to go for 4 piece t10. It will provide enough extra avoidance, at high end gear, for your combined block and avoid to completely push normal attacks (of enemy targets) from the attack table. Meaning that the only possible outcomes when you take an AA from an enemyto be either a dodge, parry, miss or block. This essentially boils down to you having extra physical damage reduction. The cd isn't as good as dk/druid 4pT10, but it's good enough to not be skipped (maybe you'd skip it if replacing all 4 pieces from ilvl277 to the bare minimum of T10, idr what it was exactly).

Was replacing the 4 piece tier set with 2 piece tier chest and gloves, but taking the items that give extra armour like Gargoyle Split Bracers, and Vendrigas Chain Belt, and Sentinel's Winter Cloak, and pillars of might. The extra armour is supposed to mitigate a lot of melee damage so on our server it considered to be pretty good if not on par with taking 4 piece tier set. Was considering other items also like onyxia ring, 2 stam trinkets instead of using sindy trinket and PTS. Currently without any buffs my armour is at 37817, and 39624 with devo aura.

Any armor past 49905 is completely useless. That value is not reachable outside of cooldowns and/or procs, however, so the real answer to your questions is that there isn't a point where you could have "too much armor". Now this doesn't mean that you should, for example, remove your Sindragosa trinket in favour of something like Glyph of Indomnability... After all, using common sense is part of the gearing process, but your question is very general so I can only give a general answer to it.

Stamina is your go-to stat for the most part. It has the most value when it comes to calculating EHP (you may also know this as "time to live"). There's basically only one instance in the end-game where you'd consider gemming something else and that is togc anub add tanking.

With this I was more asking about how much armour to get in regards to diminishing returns for armour. For instance I keep reading that anything above 36500 is sort of a waste because at that point you would rather have more stamina due to diminishing returns once you consider devor aura and other raid buffs. From what I read armour loses 80% of its value after that number because of how the DR curve looks. I'm just wondering if this is fact or not and whether going for more armour if you can get it is worth it. With no buffs I am sitting at 37817. Does that mean I should aim for less armour and go for 4 piece tier set now?

I believe I answered the other questions tied to this already, so just for this part, you do want high levels of expertise, just in case he parry-hastes at an inopportune moment. To get it paladins resort to things like EoF chest, T10 legs, mithrios, vdw boots, expertise food and maybe even some gems. People are sort of divided on the issue of whether to go to such extremes, mainly due to losing out on other survivability stats. If you don't want to do that one thing you can do is to simply... stop attacking the boss. If you're at low health you can stop attacking and not risk parry-hasting Halion/Sindragosa or any other parry-hasting boss.

This is a great tip and something I never would have considered. Are there any other counter intuitive things like this that you can pass along to me? I've heard for instance that if you are the mirror tank for blood queen you should use seal of light to help out the healers since I guess your dps is negligible for that fight.

Are there any other tips for other bosses you might have? Or if there is a good resource to go to for each boss in ICC I would appreciate that since then I could read up on each encounter on my own time. I've done all of these encounters before as holy or ret but I haven't really gotten comfortable with tank yet and knowing when to pop certain cooldowns on specific fights would be useful. Knowing which abilities to look out for as tank would be really beneficial so I can start anticipating damage and mitigating it with cooldowns to help out the healers. If there is for instance a tanking resource that would be great.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me with these questions.

[Beanlord]

So should I just skip this talent altogether since I should always have a dk in the raid that is maintaining this debuff or should I keep it specced incase they aren't going to be there? Do all DK's refresh this debuff on the boss or not? I imagine for fights like LK or Halion not having 20% reduced attack speed is probably going to be pushing the dmg I would take to unbearable levels.

...Do warriors not also keep up the same sort of debuff with demoralizing shout or is that unreliable?

This is connected to what I meant by "redundancy". There is value in multiple people bringing the same buff/debuff in a raid. Unlike damage dealers who think in terms of best possible scenarios, tanks think in reverse, meaning worst possible scenarios. You want to be able to provide both AS and AP reductions by yourself. Naturally this applies to classes that can actually do this (dk cannot reduce AP for example). Also, warriors may or may not be speced into improved demo shout and their demo shout requires active upkeep. Yours is automatic and is already the maxed out version.

Divinity I agree could be useful but I think it's less useful then the other talents like Aura Mastery. If you think like ok you have say 6 HoT's on you at a time and they heal for around 200-500 well 5 points isn't really going to be boosting the amount you get healed in between holy lights by that much. Say you get 2k hp per second in HoT's even at 5% extra that's still only an extra 100 hp per second. I think that's pretty negligible considering most paladins have a Holy Light cooldown of 1.3 seconds and you will be beacon of light of you are MT.

Those extras matter quite a bit. You need to consider that you're not always going from values of 100% hp to 0, nor from close to 0 to 100%. There will be many instances where you'd be at say, 40% hp (completely arbitrary value only used for the example), with the next boss attack killing you outright. In such situations any trickle healing improvements matter a whole lot and can, and many time are enough to bring you over the edge of dying on next swing. The thinking behind Divinity is very similar to the thinking behind Last Word as a weapon of choice.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=376758

I understand you can get AM from someone else in the raid, but say for the Halion encounter while you are tanking inside, you aren't guaranteed to have an extra pally in there. Not to mention DPS and Healing paladins aren't really keeping track of bosses attacks on the tank when they are more worried about raid wide mechanics. So you being able to AM for specific attacks seems to be undervalued here since you don't have to rely on someone else to save you from a potential crushing blow. So I kind of consider this a main tanking ability and not just for the off tank to have. Most raids on my server tend to have two paladin main tanks also. On top of that having an extra AM to keep its use on a 1 min CD seems great for certain bosses.

As I said, there isn't anything wrong per se for you to spec into holy. It's just that over time people have switched to valuing Divinity/Vindication/Judgements of the Just over it. Also, crushing blows is a term used from prior expansions, although I assume you didn't mean it with that context in mind.

Also having the tank pop AM means 6% extra raid wide healing.

Shouldn't be the case. Improved Devotion Aura works with any aura, there shouldn't be any difference arising from you using AM or not using AM so long as the raid is affected by any of your auras. The 6% buff will be there by default, unless something is broken on the server.

5 talent points for 5% extra heals seems like a lot to spend imo, especially when most Holy Light crits end up putting you into the overheal category.

Overhealing is still fairly valuable at the end-game due to val'anyr.

https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufzxfMd0f
https://wotlk.evowow.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufzxfMzbf

Both of these focus on threat. Below you've acknowledged the general rule of thumb when it comes to threat. Again, there's nothing specifically wrong with either of these builds. You may just have more than enough threat already and be wasting talent points. In terms of defensive capabilities, Vindication is significantly better for physical damage than Aura Mastery. Aura Mastery is significantly better for raid Shadow/Frost/Fire damage though.

I guess that I shouldn't really care though for trash pulls since bosses are more importan

You've hit the nail on the head here. You definitely shouldn't care about trash pulls.

I'm more curious about the 50% reduction in disarm effects though. Do we as tanks ever get disarmed by bosses? Does this effect stack with the titanium plating on our shield? Because the shield enchant seems to imply that it doesn't stack with any similar effects.

We don't care, and it shouldn't stack.

Was replacing the 4 piece tier set with 2 piece tier chest and gloves, but taking the items that give extra armour like Gargoyle Split Bracers, and Vendrigas Chain Belt, and Sentinel's Winter Cloak, and pillars of might. The extra armour is supposed to mitigate a lot of melee damage so on our server it considered to be pretty good if not on par with taking 4 piece tier set. Currently without any buffs my armour is at 37817, and 39624 with devo aura.


With this I was more asking about how much armour to get in regards to diminishing returns for armour. For instance I keep reading that anything above 36500 is sort of a waste because at that point you would rather have more stamina due to diminishing returns once you consider devor aura and other raid buffs. From what I read armour loses 80% of its value after that number because of how the DR curve looks. I'm just wondering if this is fact or not and whether going for more armour if you can get it is worth it. With no buffs I am sitting at 37817. Does that mean I should aim for less armour and go for 4 piece tier set now?

With 4pT10 and a block value of >2k (at the end-game) you're essentially guaranteeing >2k less damage per swing during the effect. For a 40k swing that's the equivalent of >5% phyiscal damage reduction. You can still keep all armor pieces while getting 4pT10 by the way. Helm, shoulders, chest and hands with Pillars of Might, dbs 10hc wrist, eof cloak and so on. Onyxia ring is pretty good, especially if it helps you reach certain minimum resist breakpoints. Also, while ony ring is strong, it's actually not the second best ring in terms of EHP (with the first obviously being VDW ring). The second best EHP ring in the game is togc 10 hc valk ring.

http://web.archive.org/web/201306101...chanics_wotlk/

The diminishing returns nature of stats in this game confuses a lot of people. Yes, in the strictest sense of the phrase armor does indeed diminish. It will take you more armor to reach the next 1% damage reduction that it did before. But when tanking you don't care about this one bit. The main metric by which you go is EHP (or time to live, they're the same thing). In terms of EHP armor has no diminishing returns. The next 1 armor at 40k is just as valuable as the next 1 armor at 0. The wowwiki actually has this explained fairly well, so I'll link it here

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Armor

This is a great tip and something I never would have considered. Are there any other counter intuitive things like this that you can pass along to me? I've heard for instance that if you are the mirror tank for blood queen you should use seal of light to help out the healers since I guess your dps is negligible for that fight.

Well I wouldn't say it's counter-intuitive, but regardless I can't think of anything in particular to give as advice. I'm simply trying to answer your questions as best I can. As for BQL OT, yes you can do that. It may also be a small help to equip 2 stamina trinkets instead of 1 as armor on OT BQL is essentially worthless.

Was considering other items also like onyxia ring, 2 stam trinkets instead of using sindy trinket and PTS.

There are definitely situations where this can and should be done. BQL OT, as you mentioned, is one of them. But those you can kind of judge for yourself. If you're not going to be taking a whole lot of physical damage (keleseth), or if the physical damage is just paultry compared to the magical damage (ldw), then equipping an armor trinket may not be the best course of action.

If there is for instance a tanking resource that would be great.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=437416993
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1316872888
http://web.archive.org/web/201008081...tection_guide/

The EJ link is dated, but the concept breakdowns there are the important parts and most, if not all, should still be more than valid. The sheets are not made by me. They were made by a person named Itank.