Does Prince Keleseth count as 1/3 or as 1 boss? Since 'spam you with an uninterruptable direct damage spell' is literally what Kele does...
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Member
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Member
Ppl saying that you need morbility to ot is cringeworthy.Also everything past wotn in the blood tree is a waste of a talent point.
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Banned
Good point. Still, Anti-Magic Shell takes care of that when he received the darkfallen orb.
FuTeKi, we're talking about consistent off-tanking, no matter if it's inside or outside ICC. Unholy and Frost don't have any issues with AoE aggro. Blood, however, does. With Morbidity, it doesn't. That's all.
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Member
Tbh there is not much you can do until the threat multiplier of dnd is fixed.I do not find dnd usefull atm for anything other than pick up aggro.
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Wind of Northrend
I wont comment much on the "Clarifications" part, il just say i disagree with most of things...
I would just love to know how are both Sudden Doom and Might of Morgraine better talent choises than Spell Deflection, on top of how is it that Spell Deflection is a **** talent pls?
Also, how come is using Glyph of Death Strike / Rune Strike better than using Glyph of Disease and getting those 2 talents from Epidemic for something else.
Also i would love to know Blood dk tank rotation aswell...
My suggestion if u want Morbidity:
http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
Glyphs: Dark Command, Vampiric Blood, Disease.
Edit:
Black Ice and Endless winter will give u more overall Damage on DnD than Blood Gorged. Even if the Damage is same, u are not dependant on weather u are above 75% hp or not, and on top of that u dont have to waste talent points in Blood tree after u reach WoTN.
U can also use talents from Killing Machine and put it in Bloody Strikes if u think u have more than enough single target threat with normal hit ITs.Edited: May 3, 2017
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Banned
Spell Deflection is just bad because it's mediocre, unreliable and not very relevant to most bosses. Sudden Doom is by far one of the worst threat talents you could ever take as it's random threat and that usually means you're gonna get it when you don't actually need it. Might of Mograine would be considered good if it wasn't for the low crit chance of tanks, it's much better than Sudden Doom as you're generally gonna crit way more often than you'd proc Death Coils and it also affects your AoE. I'd rank these talents as Spell Deflection => Might of Mograine =================> Sudden Doom, from best to worst. That said, I don't think any of these talents should ever be present in a good blood tanking spec as they're all just different levels of bad.
Bloody Strikes coupled with Heart Strike is a much better investment than all of these combined for a mere 4 points.Edited: May 3, 2017
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Wind of Northrend
So, 20% chance to reduce almost every spell damage hit, from Frostbolts, Breaths, Blistering Cold, Infest, ... is a bad talent? Wow, didnt know that... Its basicly ability to parry a god damn spell.
If u explain to me how is Heart Strike usefull and how is it going to help u in any way, il be more than happy to hear u out. It deals almost same amount of damage as Blood Strike to his primary target, and it deals less damage than Blood Boil to his secondary target. It loses its value exponencialy if u dual wield as a DK tank on top of that...
Edit:
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Direct_damage
To save us some time i guess...Edited: May 4, 2017
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Member
So much misinformation here it makes me poke my eyes out... Let's make a quick comparison between deep blood vs frost subspec and some additional talent options and if they worth on taking or not.
1. Spell Deflection - Only procs on direct damage spells not on AoE or elemental weapon strikes, the only time it can come of use it's when Keleseth in ICC spams on you, but we have AMS + Orbs so this doesn't justify an investment of 3/3 so hence useless, pass on this one.
2. Icy Reach - This is PvP talent its pretty self explanatory what it does, so no need this in ICC or RS, we are not in Black Temple, Hyjal, or in wide open space raids where you need to pick up adds/minibosses all the way back from Dalaran, so wasting 2 points on this it doesn't justify at all.
3. Black Ice 5/5 you gotta be ****ing kidding me to waste 5 points on a talent meant for Frost DK DPS AOE playstyle in order to reach what? 3/5 KM and 2/2 Endless Winter? to what end?
You don't need your IT to crit rofl, as you don't need 5/5 BI for your DnD to do more damage, that won't boost your threat much, since IT + DND have natively built in threat generation mechanic so it's more than necessary to use IT 1-2 times on a target as it's most efficient ability a DK has on his arsenal to generate threat when it comes to picking up a target and DND for Aoe, and 4% more str from EW is a joke, you waste 12 precious talents point in frost tree to what ends?
When you can spend those talents elsewhere such as deep blood and be overall balanced tank and adaptive to any situation in my eye, such as maintaining ST threat easilty, be strong in AoE tanking due to 3/3 Morbidity, 2/2 Epidemic.
And Heart Strike + Bloody Strikes help you because HS hits 2 targets constatly means = better aoe tanking potential the blood spec lacks so hence the reason why we cannot pass on this, it's simple.
I don't see any better spec for Blood than this here: http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
As Glyphs: Dark Command, Vampiric Blood, Disease.
You can still do the job with frost subspec also but this is far superior if we are creating a scenario for tryhards who wanna squeeze the best possible outta their spec gear, enchants etc.Edited: May 4, 2017
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Banned
The only one of those that is relevant is Sindra's breath and she only does that a couple of times during the entire fight and even then it's a measly 20% chance that you can't rely on. Everything else you mentioned either doesn't work with Spell Deflection or can be interrupted.
This is just nonsense. No, Heart Strike doesn't do "almost same amount of damage as Blood Strike to his primary target", it does roughly double Blood Strike damage on the primary target and about one regular Blood Strike worth of damage to the secondary one. This is 100% damage increase on one of your fillers for single target and a 200% increase on two targets. It's useful on every single boss and provides higher damage cleave than Blood Boil for when you have to tank 2-3 things (Deathwhisper, Gunship, Blood Princes, Valithria, Anub'arak) and just for 1 point.
Oh? What's that? Your skills lose value if you actively neuter your damage for a little extra avoidance? No way, mate. Well, it's a good thing you took Spell Deflection then, maybe now you can live 20% of the time after Sindra breathes and parry hastes you at the same time on 10 stacks.Edited: May 4, 2017
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Member
When you suggest the use of DnD and morbidity, wouldn't it be a good idea aswell to recomend Glyph of DnD instead of Glyph of disease?
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Wind of Northrend
@Cashroll
1. Since u CANT click on the link:
"Direct Damage, or DD, usually refers to any type of magic spell (or a component of a spell) whose direct effect is to cause burst damage (hitpoint loss) to one or multiple targets." Infest also counts, Breath also counts, any non Damage over Time spell that hits u counts.
2. Extra range when Offtanking LK wont hurt for Shamblings, nor will tanking Halion in Phisical realm when u have to catch Infernos.
If u dont like it u can always go for 8% melee haste instead or Nerves of Cold Steel if u are DWing.
3. Main Scource of Single target aggro comes from IT (Frost Damage). Main Scource of AoE aggro should come from DnD (Shadow Damage).
Black Ice gives 10% Frost/Shadow damage increase. Blood Gorged gives 10% more damage. In the end same ****.
4% Extra Strength that increases ur overall DMG and gives u a little bit of parry chance is a bad thing u are right, its better to get 45% extra damage on Death Strike or even better, 5% chance to get an extra Death Coil after doing BS / HS. As for KM goes, i guess its bad to build up **** ton of threat with IT crit so u can spam more Death Strikes, and after that maintaining ur aggro with only Rune Strike.
As for ur BEST SPEC EVER FOR BLOOD TANKING, let me look at it...
Sudden Doom and Might of Mograine. Somehow 5% chance for extra Death Coil and 15% chance for 45% extra Damage on some irelevant stuff are better than 20% less Damage from any kind of spell that hits u. Are we talking about DPS or Tanking Blood DK? Also, u do know DK crits deal 200% of normal Damage. With KM u get 2 ITs by only casting 1. Do u even know how many Death Strikes is that?
Blood Gorged is so bad for tanking its ******ed, atleast from my point of view. The ONLY way it works is if ur healers are able to keep u on 75%+ HP, if u want to play RNGesus game as a tank, best of luck. This might not always happen when clearing dungeons u know, especialy if u have no gear... There are better options than wasting talents to even get to this **** that can be replaced...
Epidemic, nice one, cos we all know how STRICT rotation Tanks have, god forbid using IT more than once every 21 sec, cos IT is so bad, 1 IT crit will overagro a fkin warrior tank.
The only way u are able to tank without doing more ITs and going for this Blood DPS wanabespec build is cos u are eather overgearing ur content, getting fed up by MD and Tricks, u dont have a Fury warrior or Feral with hysteria that can **** on ur aggro.
Every time i go to do VoA and i see DK with this spec and mentality i have to DPS orbs as a ****ing melee cos hey, forums said this spec is great, god forbid spamming IT, il just let one of my top DPS die cos i cant make aggro and hunters/rogues cant help me out.
@DamnOriginal
Sindra does her breath couple of times? Did u like do Sindra in the last couple of months? Do u even know how hard she hits now?
Halion is also doing couple of breaths that are not relevant, right?
And u are right, 20% chance is low, lets remove 20% parry from avoidance table also for melee and see how that goes... I guess thats why Blizzard implemented Chill of the Throne (-20% dodge) cos its so irelevant.
I never said avoidance is best stat to go for, cos its RNG, but it sure is better than Sudden Doom and Might of Mograine.
And no, u are not suposed to go full ****** and DW with 1.3sec weps on bosses that have parry haste.
But, if u want to build ur tank spec and gear cos 3/33+ bosses can rape u if they parry, best of luck.
OK, so, as a best in slot DK tank (5800atk power+), with ur spec and only Horn of Winter as a buff i got this numbers on a dummy:
Gloren HC as a wep: Blood Strike did: 1200 - 1400 dmg , Heart Strike did: 1900 - 2100 dmg , Blood Boil did: 1000 - 1100 dmg.
Double Milthrios as weps (without ToT): Blood Strike did: 800 - 900 dmg , Heart Strike did: 1100 - 1300 dmg , Blood Boil did: 1000 - 1100 dmg.
A good Blood tank wont EVER use Blood Runes instantly. U need to have 1 up for just in case Rune Tap/Vampiric Blood, but without losing Blade Barrier. So i really dont see how HS will ever be usefull cos u dont do it as often as one might think...
Now, if u use Glyph of Disease with Death Rune Mastery u basicly do 3 things: IT, DS, Pestilence. Thats it.
Frost and Unholy Rune for Death Strike > Death Runes for Icy Touch.
U only use Blood Runes to refresh Diseases and to keep Blade Barrier up constantly. U actualy dont need to BS or BB ever...
With that u will have more than enough Threat to Heal whenever u want without even a chance of losing aggro.
I dont really see the need to complicate things, u IT for threat, u DS for heal, u Pestilence to keep the first two things going.
IT = 10k threat, HS = 2k threat (numbers are random, IT might do more, HS might even do less Threat).
I guess natural thing is to go for HS spam rather than going for IT spam right?
Again:
http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
U dont need more talents in Blood Tree. Killing Machine will give u more aggro than Heart Strike ever will.
U can always ajust Blood Tree a little, depending on if u decide for DW or Two Handed weapon, Frost/Unholy talents also, going less in Black Ice and more in Icy Talons (depending on how fast u feel the need to hit), going for Range, going for NoCS, droping Morbidity for Frigid Dreadplate and so on...
Edit: Morbidity wont give u magical AoE threat increase. It will only make DnD available more often, cos it only decreases the CD for 15sec. If u think that u dont need DnD more than every once 15/20/25/30 sec put the talents in it acordingly...Edited: May 4, 2017
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Wind of Northrend
thats it, im hiring gnibo to write essays for me
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Wind of Northrend
Thanks Kido, will do...
I just dont get it tbh, the reason why u go Armor Penetration on FDK DPS is cos ur Melee and Obliterate deal **** ton of Damage.
As for tank u have IT that generates **** ton of threat. Not maximising that is like trying to maximise Frost Strike DMG as FDK DPS and hope u will outdps the Armor Pen FDK. It wont happen...
Going for Glyph of Disease will maximise the usage of both IT and DS which are two main spells that u want to focus on using as much as posible, as a Tank at the curent state of warmane. There is basicly no 3rd Glyph (Glyph of Dark Command and Vampiric Blood beeing the main and must have glyphs) that will give u more advantage on a long run than GoD.
Spell Deflection works on any kind of Non DoT damaging spell, from both single target spells to AoE, Cone attack spells such as Breath from Dragons. U will have arround 25% parry chance as BIS Blood DK, which will make every 4th spell that hit u do 45% less DMG. On top of that u dont need any more DPS talents since, again, IT is all that u need for strong and solid aggro. Just calculate and test it. Compare the Threat generation from IT and from HS, or any other spell...
As for AoE threat u cant do much about it since DnD is bugged. Once they fix it u should be fine... Morbidity will only reduce DnD cooldown, nothing else.
From my point of view there are 3 posible specs:
http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
Double raid buff spec which is great for 10m instances.
http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
Avoidance Spec which is good for tanking bosses like Lich King 25m hc.
http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
Spec that has decent and available AoE threat.
For 1st two specs u can DW instead of using a Two Handed weapon. One more time, IT is all that u need for threat, u can use 1handed tank weapons for more avoidance. U can DW with 3rd spec aswell, but Hard Hitting Rune Strike might be usefull when u dont have anything else for tanking multiple targets, after u use all ur Runes. 2/3 Morbidity should be enough since u wont be able to cast DnD exactly every 15 sec most of the time (17-20sec).
All these specs can be modified a bit but the point is that u DONT need more than 43 talent points in Blood Tree. WotN 3/3, after u get that just stop.
Glyph of Dark Command, Glyph of Vampiric Blood, Glyph of Disease (Glyph of DnD, for 3rd spec if u want even better AoE threat).
And just practice how to spam as much ITs and DSs as posible, keep those disease up with Pestilence, always have 1 Blood Rune ready in case of danger to pop Rune Tap / Vampiric Blood, without losing Blade Barrier. Try to predict when u have to use Defencive CDs, when u have to Heal, when u have free time to spam IT so u can do **** ton of DSs when Boss starts hitting u hard... Watch ur movements and always think 2 steps ahead. Thats it. There is no rocket science in tanking. Or in WotLK tbh, just keep it simple.
Best of Luck.
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Banned
Spell Deflection reduces damage by 45% not 100% like melee parry so that's just false equivalence not to mention that melee attacks are the overwhelming majority of almost all boss damage on the tank on almost every encounter. Melee parry is always going to be useful while Spell Deflection not, the two aren't even close in terms of usefulness. There's another glaring issue in the fact that the spells you actually want to reduce with Spell Deflection are usually also spells that you will have to prepare for anyway and guarantee that they wont kill you even if it doesn't proc as you can't rely on a 1/5 chance not to die. The end result is that when it seldom procs on trivial damage, it doesn't do much and when it procs on massive spell hits it doesn't matter either because you popped cds in anticipation anyway. I still rank Spell Deflection higher than Sudden Doom and Might of Mograine, I just don't think it's worth the 3 points.
The point I was making with my response to your dual wield comment was "No ****, Sherlock". Heart Strike is obviously worse if you dual wield, that does not reflect the usefulness of the skill when you're using the expected 2hander in any way however.
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Member
Unless you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for more threat, there's no real reason to not invest two points (minimum amount required to advance into the next tier) into Spell Deflection as all other options are purely threat oriented (ignoring obvious must have talents such as Blood tap and Imp. Blood Tap) and DKs don't really suffer from threat issues considering their absurd IT multiplier. Not to mention that in most raids you'll be getting lots of MDs and totts if you're tanking a boss. While Spell Deflection is rarely useful, it does have its place and will serve some purpose on a few encounters as you've all already mentioned. If you feel like you need the extra threat from some combination of Dark Conviction/Butchery/Subversion/Bladed Armor or the extra RP from Scent of Blood don't spec it. The thing is I really doubt any of you do so why is this even a discussion?
Edited: May 5, 2017
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