The points i was making are:
Icy Touch generates 5-7 times more Threat than Heart Strike, or any other ability,
U should only buff Icy Touch and Rune Strike with talents, cos they are our main scource of Threat,
U should get as many Defencive Talents as u can, they wont hurt u (there is nothing worth losing 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 Spell Deflection in Blood Tree that can help u in any way, Spell Deflection > Bloody Strikes),
U should use 2x 1handed Tanking weapons (bosses that have Parry Haste are not included, carry 2handed wep for Lady, Sindra and Halion), u have more than enough Threat for single target Boss tanking, and u can never have enough avoidance,
Heart Strike is useless for both single target and 2 target tanking, 50% DMG on 2nd target that Heart Strike does will make apsolutely no diference when it comes to Threat, KM + IT will,
There is no magical rotation in which u cant use more than 1 IT per rune cycle cos u cant have both IT and DS, u can make a great rotation with which u can spam IT and DS as much as u like, u just need to use Glyph of Disease as ur 3rd glyph,
Blood Gorged and Heart Strike are bad talents for tanking, especialy since u need to waste even more talents to reach them.
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Wind of Northrend
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Member
yall should just reroll paladin instead of trying to put some text here xDD
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Banned
The fact that Icy Touch is so good is exactly why you shouldn't focus on buffing it at the cost of everything else. It's already ridiculously good right outside of the box, there's no need to make it better. The purpose of IT is to provide you with burst threat at the start of the fight to ensure that the DPS don't pull and then have yourself transition into using all of your frost/unholy/death runes on Death Strikes and keeping threat without IT.
I don't like RNG in my defensive talents. Spell Deflection is just background noise that works when you don't need it and when you do need it, you can't make use of it. It's a shame too cause If Spell Deflection was a guaranteed 9% reduction on all direct damage spells, it would be a fantastic talent. As the case is right now, no one would ever even notice the difference between someone with and without it because of how random and irrelevant this talent is. Bloody Strikes meanwhile provides a boost to cleave and AoE damage, which is definitely appreciated on a blood DK. Not that these two talents are in any way exclusive but one of them is definitely way more useful and that's Bloody Strikes.
This is the reason you value Heart Strike so low. By going dual-wield, you make all of your strikes much worse and are forced to rely on IT to keep threat. Every IT you use to keep up with threat delays the availability of your Death Strikes. Dual wielding gives you more avoidance, 2handed gives you slightly more stamina and removes the need for IT in your rotation after opener. What Heart Strike does is it makes the 1 free blood rune you would usually spend on blood strike much stronger, helping you keep the threat lead without IT.
I don't know what you were trying to say here but the whole point of Glyph of Disease is to push IT and Plague Strike out of your rotation after opener, allowing you to use a blood rune to keep your diseases up and thus having the 4 frost/unholy runes for Death Strike. Every time you have to use IT to keep up with threat, you're slowing down your healing. There is no way for you to use IT and not damage your Death Strike healing at the same time.
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Member
*clueless gnibo broken monkey English wall of text inc*
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Wind of Northrend
Ok so, before anything else, the formula for threat generation:
Icy Touch - DMG * 2.0735 (frost presence) * 7 (IT mod)
Heart Strike - DMG * 2.0735 (frost presence)
Avrg Icy Touch, self buffed with this spec:http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
deals arround 1000 DMG, using 2x [Mithrios, Bronzebeard's Legacy] 25m hc.
Total Threat generated with 1 IT is: 14514
Avrg Heart Strike, self buffed with this spec: http://talentcalc.deffender.eu/death...00000000000000
deals arround 2300 DMG, using [Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand] 25m HC, with Blood Gorged active and 3/3 Bloody Vengeance on me.
Total Threat generated with 1 HS is: 4769
Burst Threat? I didnt know that generating more threat is bad thing to do as a tank.
How i see it, buffing Icy Touch will give u even more value out of those talents cos of the insane multiplier, and using 1 Icy Touch is better than spamming 3 Heart Strikes for the same amount of Threat.
And, when talking about "Cleave DMG"... 1 IT on 2nd Target will do soooo much more when it comes to Threat, than 50% DMG from HS or 100% DMG from Blood Boil. On 3+ targets no Blood Boil will help u against best in slot Fury Warrior spamming Cleave and WW, u can only pray they fixed DnD, so pls...
Also, i use 2/5 Black Ice and 4/5 Killing Machine to buff Icy Touch. Total of 6 talents. U use 2/2 Two Handed Specialisation, 3/3 Bloody Strikes, 1/1 Heart Strike, 3/3 Might of Mograine, 5/5 Blood Gorged. Total of 14 talents to do 3 times less Threat while using 1 Ability.
RNG or not, there is no better talent to chose, even in ur suggested talent build. U can eather lose Sudden Doom, Might of Mograine or even Death Rune Mastery and get that passive spell avoidance (45% reduction). And on a fight such as Sindragosa and Halion, u can never have enough of Spell Deflection.
Yes, i dont see why do u even spec into Death Rune Mastery. U said it urself, u should use Frost/Unholy runes only for Death Strike, so u basicly wasted 3 talent points.
U dont have to spam Death Strike 24/7. Its not something u use when its off Cooldown, especialy when u are on 100% HP. This isnt Cata, it wont give us Shield. That is the reson why Glyph of Disease works so well with Death Rune Mastery, when u dont have the need for heals, use those Death Runes for Icy Touch. On top of that it replaces the need of using Plague Strike to refresh Blood Plague on ur target = more Death Strikes.
Again, there is NO strict rotation when u are Tanking as Blood DK. U eather prepare before getting hit by something huge and use Death Strike Instantly after, or u spam IT consuming those Death Runes.
And no, i dont value Heart Strike low cos im dual-wielding, even if i used a Two Hander i wouldnt spec it. I value using a Two Hander cos u have more than enough Threat from IT alone and u can never have enough avoidance. Not that im a fan of avoidance, but the more u have it the better...
When i think about it now, ur spec has apsolutely no sence tbh. U said u value Spell Deflection more than Might of Mograine or Sudden Doom, yet u didnt spec it. U say u should use Frost/Unholy runes for Death Strike only, why do u need Death Rune Mastery in that case? So u can have fancy Death Runes for Death Strike? OR, dont tell me, u use those Death Runes for Heart Strike when u are on 100% HP? So u basicly want less Threat? U know u can use that Death Rune for Icy Touch and get 3 times more Threat in return?
Again, Blood DK tank is simple as:
Use Blood Runes for Pestilence, Cooldowns (Rune Tap, Vampiric Blood), and keeping Blade Barrier up constantly (with another Pestilence, Blood Strike or Blood Boil, since it wont matter in the end).
Use Frost and Unholy Runes for Death Strike when u have to Heal.
Use Death Runes for Icy Touch when u dont have to Heal.
Spam Rune Strike.
Predict when u have to pop a def CD / Death Strike to heal, and position urself slowy and well enough so ur DPS wont have to move a lot for a short amount of time.
But yea, since im clueless and i dont know what im talking about, il leave u bois and wish u best of luck with Sudden Doom and Might of Mograine as tanks.
I hope it works out for u in the end. :)
Oh, almost forgot, sorry for my bed engrish profesur, i skipd sum classes... No med pls. Forgiv... :'(
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Banned
You're completely missing the point. IT costs a frost rune, HS costs a blood rune. Blood runes are disposable, frost ones aren't. You should never resort to spending frost runes on threat unless you absolutely have to because Death Strike costs frosts.
You didn't know that sacrificing Death Strike healing for threat when you don't need it to keep up with the next best threat is a bad thing? That should be self-explanatory. The only time you should ever be using IT is at the start and that's because it takes some time for your other threat to get rolling. This way you establish a threat lead with IT and then transition into keeping that threat by diverting as many frost/unholy/death runes to Death Strike as possible, or in other words refraining from using IT unless your threat lead is in danger. You will have a harder time doing this without HS because you will be using Blood Strike in its place, which is significantly weaker and you will have an even harder time dual wielding tanking weapons because your strikes hit like wet noodles. And yes, blood AoE threat is bugged negatively but that is exactly what makes AoE talents like Bloody Strikes and Morbidity valuable.
I'm really confused by this because I have no idea what point you're trying to make or why you're talking about Death Rune Mastery, considering I never posted any specs or even mentioned the talent. I do use Death Rune Mastery in my specs and if you have to ask yourself why a tank would use that, you really don't understand how runes work. It provides flexibility by allowing you to sacrifice your Death Strike runes in emergency situations, like when you need to pop Vampiric Blood but both your blood runes are on cd, it allows you to spam more IT during the opener or when you need to pick up adds, it's an excellent talent for making sure you can use the skills you need to use at any given time. At no point did I ever say Death Strikes should be spammed, I fully understand that in order to get the maximum out of your Death Strikes, you should be anticipating the boss hits as you are the fastest person capable of reacting to your own health, this is just a failure on your part to understand my position. Let me try saying it in simpler terms: "Glyph of Disease = No need for IT/Plague Strike = More Death Strike" "Using IT anyway = Waste of Glyph of Disease = Less Death Strike"
Why spam IT if you have a threat lead? You're throwing reactionary Death Strikes away for no reason, which you wont have if you get hit while the runes you spent on IT are on cd, which means you wont be able to react to damage. Now this is a waste of Death Rune Mastery.
Once again, I never posted any specs. You need to get some better reading comprehension, along with some writing comprehension. You know what, just get some general comprehension and we'll call it a win. Here's a spec I would use:
Spoiler:Show
No Spell Deflection, no Sudden Doom, no Might of Mograine. Morbidity and Epidemic for more available AoE and better timed Death Strikes. Icy Reach for grabbing mobs from Africa, Icy Talons for easier time holding aggro without IT. Endless Winter and 2/5 Black Ice are interchangeable.
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Member
name me the reason to have this rng **** talent, especially for Sindragosa and Halion encounter, when u have AMS/Icebound/Blood tap 4pt10/SFF trinket/AoD to soak/reduce any dmg from breath kek.
no virulence again? da****Spoiler:Show
how the ****, u guys make such builds, are u both raiding with baboons with average raid dps 10k or whut?
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Member
Weren't you the guy who couldn't realise that Unholy Blight is worth the same as two points Morbidity for an Unholy dk and claimed that the DoT doesn't stack?
Edited: May 6, 2017
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Member
kekd, i've never said that DoT doesnt stack - what i've said that comparing to Ignite/Deep wounds scaling is mediocre. now, get lost lul
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Member
As you were, so shall you remain. Denser than Gnimo.
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Wind of Northrend
Il just leave this here for mr dike rather than arguing with a plant.
@DamnOriginal
And u are also missing my point. But let me try to make it simple.
Since u CAN buff Icy Touch, that deals 3-4 times more Threat than anything else, with Killing Machine, making it a MONSTER aggro ability, and in return get more Avoidance, Deffencive stuff with talents and gear, i really dont see why would u waste talents on Heart Strike. U can always get Improved Icy Talons and replace a FDK DPS in a raid with a Mage or a Fury Warrior. As for Morbidity, i dont see the need for going more than 2/3 in that talent. Even as an Unholy DK i find it hard to use DnD every 15sec. Its ussualy every 17-20sec duo to rune CD and how they work...
I also dont know why would u rather use Blood Runes whenever they are off CD for Heart Strike and use those Death Runes for something else than Icy Touch.
Diference in Threat from my 1 handed Blood Strike and your Heart Strike will be arround, lets say 3k (its less but it doesnt matter).
Diference in Threat from (KM + IT) and HS will be 20k+.
2000 dmg * 2.0735 (frost presence) * 7 (IT mod) = 29029
Basicly 1 Death Rune used for Icy Touch does what 6 Heart Strikes do. I doubt u cant find a window where u can use 2 Death Runes for Icy Touch over Death Strike.
U can basicly spam Icy Touch for full duration of [Icebound] or [Blood Tap (4/5 T10) and Vampiric Blood], never be in danger of getting killed, and have enough aggro to just use Rune Strike, Death Strike and Pestilence for 1 whole min, maybe even more if u have a Rogue or Hunter in the raid.
I personaly think using Icy Touch like crazy for Threat cos of its insane multiplier, and getting as many defencive talents and items is better, especialy when u dont have Best in Slot gear and when u dont have a clue how ur class works. Also i think Improved Icy Talons are perfect for someone clearing Dungeons and 10m Instances while trying to gear up. Saying: dont use IT, exept on a pull to a newbie that doesnt even know how spell works, might end up badly for top DPS. I know u didnt say something like this but yea, i hope u get what im going for...
But hey, i guess we can always aggre to disagree. U have ur own way of playing a DK tank, i have my own, aslong as they both work everything is gucci, and people can always try out both and see which one works for them. :D
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Wind of Northrend
HEY, i did change my frost dps build in the end, and my view on haste!
pls no compare with dike :'(
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Banned
But you're not getting avoidance for free, you're sacrificing Death Strikes for it by relying on frost runes for IT and the avoidance itself isn't even that significant. It's not worth it imo, it would be worth it if IT used a blood rune, but it doesn't. The point about Morbidity is fair, often times you wont use it on cooldown with 3/3 but you definitely can and it's useful when things die too fast. I can definitely see 2/3 being fine as well.
You can't predict when the boss is going to land a hit on you unless you have the gift of foresight, so the moment you hit full health and decide now is a good time to spam IT twice, the boss might just land 2 or more hits before that set of runes finishes recharging, which means you now have 1 less Death Strike to use in reaction to those hits.
This is what you do in the opener with a 2hander as well, only except of having to re-do that later, you keep your threat lead without IT because you're not slapping the boss with noodles, thus allowing for more Death Strikes.
The reason IT is so ridiculously good is exactly why I feel it's best used at the start of a fight or to glue adds to you, allowing your less bursty skills to take over after and keeping your frost/unholy/death runes free for survival.
Amen. I just like disagreeing agreeably.
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Wind of Northrend
@DamnOriginal
Thanks for the long discussion on Blood DK talent subject. Made me change some things a bit...
I edited my tank guide and added a talent build with with Heart Strike in it. :D
Best of luck.
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Banned
I had completely given up arguing. Thanks, DamnOriginal ;)
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