1. Well then I'd be interested to know what your sources are for your retail damage formulas, because they'd have to be egregiously and hilariously wrong to arrive at such a conclusion as double-dipping traps.
    Hilariously wrong when with the NEW CORE you can't reproduce the same damage, am I right? Do I really need to pull off obvious numbers? Can you also quote me one R1 Hunter in Live content that used to do that Trap damage with a MM Spec? I'm curious about your sources as well.

    Also hilariously how I remember reading some people here saying that trinket swap mid-fight wasn't an exploit when you're not supposed to drop combat mid-fight in any way and you also have an internal CD of 30 seconds in order to proc the new trinket which didn't happen.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  2. Well, you can reproduce the same damage. Unless you were talking about specific fights where they're now doing less (doh DBS).

  3. Can you also quote me one R1 Hunter in Live content that used to do that Trap damage with a MM Spec? I'm curious about your sources as well.

    Also hilariously how I remember reading some people here saying that trinket swap mid-fight wasn't an exploit when you're not supposed to drop combat mid-fight in any way and you also have an internal CD of 30 seconds in order to proc the new trinket which didn't happen.
    I'll repost my question 'cause I'm curious to see the answer. I assume you don't have a proper answer yet - Google it. I'll wait.

    Also when you state that you can reproduce the same damage a thing pops in my head - I was aware of multiple hunters that abused that system and I've seen their DPS fall since the new core was implemented. You can now reproduce the proper damage of the trap herself (you're right on that) but you can't do a 15% average value of your DPS anymore.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  4. Routine use of traps necessitates melee range - and that's something that was mechanically unfavorable on the vast majority of retail encounters, as opposed to here (at least until recently) where fights weren't still 100% working.

    You don't have to dissect every action Hunters from retail ever did to draw a conclusion on something that has as simple a mathematical basis as damage formulas. You just need to a) know what the damage formula is, and b) how to properly apply it. The fact that you seem to think traps ever double-dipped leads me to believe you did one of those very incorrectly.

    TL;DR Traps aren't "double-dipping" right now, nor did they prior to the core swap, as was evident to anyone who ran the appropriate tests correctly (I believe OP was one of those unfortunate enough to have been dragged into that duty?). Though it is possible certain other bugs are at work that aren't necessarily inherent to the base damage of Explosive Trap itself.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  5. Well then I'd be interested to know what your sources are for your retail damage formulas, because they'd have to be egregiously and hilariously wrong to arrive at such a conclusion as double-dipping traps.
    Well, you can reproduce the same damage. Unless you were talking about specific fights where they're now doing less (doh DBS).
    Routine use of traps necessitates melee range - and that's something that was mechanically unfavorable on the vast majority of retail encounters, as opposed to here (at least until recently) where fights weren't still 100% working.

    You don't have to dissect every action Hunters from retail ever did to draw a conclusion on something that has as simple a mathematical basis as damage formulas. You just need to a) know what the damage formula is, and b) how to properly apply it. The fact that you seem to think traps ever double-dipped leads me to believe you did one of those very incorrectly.

    TL;DR Traps aren't "double-dipping" right now, nor did they prior to the core swap, as was evident to anyone who ran the appropriate tests correctly (I believe OP was one of those unfortunate enough to have been dragged into that duty?). Though it is possible certain other bugs are at work that aren't necessarily inherent to the base damage of Explosive Trap itself.
    I'd be interested to know your thoughts on 1mil+ damage done by Explosive Trap only on a fight like BQL.

  6. Routine use of traps necessitates melee range - and that's something that was mechanically unfavorable on the vast majority of retail encounters, as opposed to here (at least until recently) where fights weren't still 100% working.

    You don't have to dissect every action Hunters from retail ever did to draw a conclusion on something that has as simple a mathematical basis as damage formulas. You just need to a) know what the damage formula is, and b) how to properly apply them. The fact that you seem to think traps ever double-dipped leads me to believe you did one of those incorrectly.
    You're right. I really don't have to dissect every action that was used in Retail. But what I usually do is compare results;

    Let's see here now - A MM Hunter, back in Retail, used to round a percentage value of 5% to 7% maximum damage output through an explosive trap. It was used in fights where you required movement (Example: Halion) and you would use them to keep your damage output flowing. Now let's just talk about percentages 'cause converting the percentage value to an exact number can be tricky: 5% ~ 7% to 15%~ - Do I see a multiplication there? Just because the formula does exist that doesn't mean the final result is 100% correct. The formula can be miscalculated (as it was) before the implementation of this new core. According to the tracking that I've done, hunters that used to apply that ability in their rotation, now lost an average of 1.5k DPS - And before you pull this argument off - The several fixes to the rest of the abilities are accounted in this.

    Properly apply broken situations is something that I never did in this game and I strongly despise the ones that make it sound like it's a legit mechanic in this server. The only spec that should be able of pulling such high percentage through that trap is the Survival spec since you have several percentages that are influenced through multiple talents. Trying to blindly believe that it's accurate just because it sounds right it's wrong. From that point of view I shouldn't push my finger against the trinket swapping either.

  7. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on 1mil+ damage done by Explosive Trap only on a fight like BQL.
    Does seem impossible, barring the event of having several people in the raid incompetent enough to get mind-controlled and consequently end up as Explosive Trap fodder.

    Either way it's extremely unlikely double-dipping plays any role in this. If there's any culprit at all, that would probably be the Glyph of Explosive Trap, since Explosive Trap's correct crit multiplier is a subject currently in doubt.

    Properly apply broken situations is something that I never did in this game and I strongly despise the ones that make it sound like it's a legit mechanic in this server. The only spec that should be able of pulling such high percentage through that trap is the Survival spec since you have several percentages that are influenced through multiple talents. Trying to blindly believe that it's accurate just because it sounds right it's wrong. From that point of view I shouldn't push my finger against the trinket swapping either.
    Survival loses the most because dropping an Explosive Trap means forgoing Black Arrow. MM/BM Hunters aren't faced with that setback. The Trap Mastery talent (one of the biggest amplifiers to trap damage) is accessible to non-SV Hunters, and serves as the basis to trap-oriented builds.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  8. Does seem impossible, barring the event of having several people in the raid incompetent enough to get mind-controlled and consequently end up as Explosive Trap fodder.

    Either way it's extremely unlikely double-dipping plays any role in this. If there's any culprit at all, that would probably be the Glyph of Explosive Trap, since Explosive Trap's correct crit multiplier is a subject currently in doubt.
    I would concur, since the numbers I've seen (prior to core update) were far too high to constitute double dipping. Something else would be seriously wrong. If there's still an issue with it on the current core, I am unaware.

    That said, though, MM Hunters using the trap outside of filler when they're moving and/or just happen to be in melee range is silly. If any of them actually does that, then I'd only have to say that is really bad of them to do so.

    I've done math for the trap, with the assumption that Dr.Damage's coefficients are accurate. The output of the trap, with both glyph and the talent, should never exceed 400k on BQL. That is also assuming the 4 variables; trap is used on-pull and then on-CD; no fears or other mechanics preventing up-time of the trap; BQL fight lasts the full duration of the enrage timer (5min); and the Hunter is the first to get the bite (so trap damage is amplified after the first one). And 400k is being extremely generous. Now I find myself wishing I had saved these screenshots people showed me of 1mil+ trap damage on the fight.

  9. I've done math for the trap, with the assumption that Dr.Damage's coefficients are accurate. The output of the trap, with both glyph and the talent, should never exceed 400k on BQL. That is also assuming the 4 variables; trap is used on-pull and then on-CD; no fears or other mechanics preventing up-time of the trap; BQL fight lasts the full duration of the enrage timer (5min); and the Hunter is the first to get the bite (so trap damage is amplified after the first one). And 400k is being extremely generous. Now I find myself wishing I had saved these screenshots people showed me of 1mil+ trap damage on the fight.
    Following the numbers from Dr. Damage and also being extremely generous placing every single trap critting I've got a number of 339.550,1 - Translate it to 340k if you want. MATH FOR DUMMIES NOW!

    1.000.000 - 339.550,1 = -660.449,9

    I see a huge negative number floating in my screen from back then to now. Double dipping doesn't seem that far away of a resolution for me now 'cause 340.000 x 2 = 680.000 - It's already really near the 1M mark again isn't it?

    As for screenshots go, I'm pretty sure I have some people that have them saved. I'll post them as soon as I get a hold of them.

    Survival loses the most because dropping an Explosive Trap means forgoing Black Arrow. MM/BM Hunters aren't faced with that setback. The Trap Mastery talent (one of the biggest amplifiers to trap damage) is accessible to non-SV Hunters, and serves as the basis to trap-oriented builds.
    Errrrhm, what about the direct loss of white hits that are supposed to be your top damage ability?
    You'll lose somewhere between to 3~5 hits that will always be superior damage compared to an explosive trap in a single target with the damage properly fixed.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  10. I start to believe you don't know **** about what you're talking about then.

    FSR was always superior following the standards that you need to follow and not RAWR Values that are wrong 50% of the times.
    You're clearly contradicting with yourself in an attempt to prove others wrong, of which I see no meaningful point.
    Spoiler: Show
    Frostbrood is superior to Signet of Twilight because of the Armor Penetration Value that you're able to get through that. This also messes with your gemming and your balance of stats that shows up through the gear you're using. Signet of Twilight is an awesome right for short fights - Let's say that you're overgearing an ICC 10 Normal - Signet of Twilight is a better option in this field.

    Of course though, I fail to see any meaningful logic in this statement of yours at all.

    That reminds me of when people said that the Explosive Trap damage was working properly when it clearly wasn't. I really don't know in what values you guys follow yourselfs but doing the proper math with Retail numbers I always get a way different output - Double dipping traps, as an example, is not a retail number and for some reason you didn't see those hunters in live content doing it. Same goes for those hunters that used to love to exploit professions in order to get that extra crit and extra agility.
    Short note: I do my values with two different settings - Retail numbers and Warmane numbers since they tend to differ in several aspects.
    You have mentioned presenting this value multiple times and you had multiple chances during the old core, the answer you gave was "tomorrow" which of course, never came. In addition, I presented you the formulas from Shandara's Spreadsheet and the comparisons in Warmane's server, so there's "retial and Warmane" for you.

    Well then I'd be interested to know what your sources are for your retail damage formulas, because they'd have to be egregiously and hilariously wrong to arrive at such a conclusion as double-dipping traps.
    And I have got no mention of what they are double dipping off either. Simply "double-dipping" traps. Double dipping off what? Agility? Intellect? RAP? Spirit? LOL. No mention of that anywhere, simply the overusage of the word "double-dipping" and without any proof to back it up.

    Hilariously wrong when with the NEW CORE you can't reproduce the same damage, am I right? Do I really need to pull off obvious numbers? Can you also quote me one R1 Hunter in Live content that used to do that Trap damage with a MM Spec? I'm curious about your sources as well.

    Also hilariously how I remember reading some people here saying that trinket swap mid-fight wasn't an exploit when you're not supposed to drop combat mid-fight in any way and you also have an internal CD of 30 seconds in order to proc the new trinket which didn't happen.
    Short answer, yes I can reproduce the same numbers. The only way that traps were doing more damage than they were supposed to is that partial resists simply did not exist. If because of this traps were an exploit, then ever single class was exploiting because come to think of it, neither were mind flay subject to partial resists nor were Frostbolts. Also you seem to have forgot the exercise where the raid was wiping because the raid leader (a healer) and a few others dropped their tasks to see if I was exploiting trinkets by any chance and failed at it.

    I'll repost my question 'cause I'm curious to see the answer. I assume you don't have a proper answer yet - Google it. I'll wait.

    Also when you state that you can reproduce the same damage a thing pops in my head - I was aware of multiple hunters that abused that system and I've seen their DPS fall since the new core was implemented. You can now reproduce the proper damage of the trap herself (you're right on that) but you can't do a 15% average value of your DPS anymore.
    The fall of DPS for me is due to the fixing of Chimera Shots which use to double dip off damage modifier talents and procs and has nothing to do with traps. If you can say that you are doing the same amount of damage as you did pre-core, I would be happy to see a screenshot.

    I'd be interested to know your thoughts on 1mil+ damage done by Explosive Trap only on a fight like BQL.
    This is another statement backed with no proof. Because, the last time this was talked about magaginho mentioned having done 700k+ on the DBS fight, whereas I had never been able to exceed 300k+. So I wold take the 1 mil+ damage with the proverbial "pinch of salt" too.

    Trying to blindly believe that it's accurate just because it sounds right it's wrong. From that point of view I shouldn't push my finger against the trinket swapping either.
    You seem to be very redundant about traps. I would think that trying to say a widely hailed retail spreadsheet such as Shandara's is false sounds a bit.. wrong too.

    Following the numbers from Dr. Damage and also being extremely generous placing every single trap critting I've got a number of 339.550,1 - Translate it to 340k if you want. MATH FOR DUMMIES NOW!

    1.000.000 - 339.550,1 = -660.449,9

    I see a huge negative number floating in my screen from back then to now. Double dipping doesn't seem that far away of a resolution for me now 'cause 340.000 x 2 = 680.000 - It's already really near the 1M mark again isn't it?

    As for screenshots go, I'm pretty sure I have some people that have them saved. I'll post them as soon as I get a hold of them.

    Errrrhm, what about the direct loss of white hits that are supposed to be your top damage ability?
    You'll lose somewhere between to 3~5 hits that will always be superior damage compared to an explosive trap in a single target with the damage properly fixed.
    And what exactly are the basis for this maths? You have mentioned neither the damage of an individual trap, nor the length of the fight, simply "I did calculations and got X amount", what calculations did you exactly do.
    My auto shot takes 2.2 seconds to cast. If you are wasting 2.2x3-2.2x5=6.6-11 seconds to move into the range of a boss and then get back, I simply don't know what to say about it. If this is really an issue everytime, consider the use of Disengage to solve these movement management issues.

  11. This is another statement backed with no proof. Because, the last time this was talked about magaginho mentioned having done 700k+ on the DBS fight, whereas I had never been able to exceed 300k+. So I wold take the 1 mil+ damage with the proverbial "pinch of salt" too.
    You seem pretty defensive for someone that wasn't being spoken to. You're approaching it like you're being accused of something. If I wanted to accuse someone of something, I would've been.

    But since you're bringing it up....
    The fact that you have any Explosion Trap damage on DBS in the first place is hilarious.



    -------------------------------------------------------------
    -My feedback on the guide.-

    I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to guide-making. Anyone who's familiar with me knows I have a fair amount of experience in writing guides for wow. That said, some of this will be some really specific critique (giving constructive feedback here to help improve your guide). I know some people who you play with OP, are a bit sensitive to people they call "elitist". I don't wish to offend them here, but merely to help you and your guide.

    General Gearing
    This entire section of the guide I don't feel is well reflected by its section header. The section is very specific. It's not "general" at all. One can deduce from this section the sort of items you'd want to aim for, but ultimately, it is a very specific set of information. Labeling it as "generalized" is misleading. I would recommend modifying the header of this section to better reflect what it is.

    G) Best Pet :-

    Wolf :-
    1) Furious Howl - 320 AP for 20 seconds on a 40 seconds cooldown, NO LONGER buffs party members, it is a hunter and pet only cooldown.
    I find it amusing that you felt it was necessary to mention this. Within the last month or two, I had someone in my raid (who will remain nameless) in ICC beg me to be put in the same group as the other Hunter. I know this right here is why, and I know just as well that the vast majority (if not ALL) of "top hunters" or "top guilds" were using this to their advantage. That made me really sad. I think it's a good thing that you're making it clear that these people can't exploit this **** anymore.

    4) Potion of Speed - +500 haste for 15 seconds / 1 minute CD which resets when out of combat.
    If I were you, I would explain to people what pre-potting is. There are quite a few on here that have no idea.

    @ your whole trinket section. I completely disagree with how you address trinket procs. The value of those procs shouldn't be underestimated. Especially that of the Scorpion. I would highly recommend anyone who relies on proc trinkets that aren't easily visible when they proc (like DBW) get some sort of addon that makes you aware that the proc is active. This way, you can squeeze every ounce of potential out of that trinket proc (using hard-hitting abilities right away; in the case of the Scorpion, Aimed Shot and as much Steady as possible so long as its value is greater than that of the other shots not on CD at that moment).

    @1h vs. 2h weapon section. Your first two sentences there are a bit contradictory. Personally, I'd just delete the first sentence and add in something to the effect of "It's ok to get 1h weapons when gearing up if that is the only or best thing you have access to".

    II) Isn't Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets a tank gun?
    Zod is indeed a tank gun with "tanky" stats
    In the second line, Zod needs to be replaced with Rowan's.

    4) Blue sockets are almost never worth getting,even in the case that you are stuck at 1390 ArP, which is a bad place to get stuck in, The gain from an Agi gem would be 30.4 DPS, that from an ArP + Stam gem would be 29.78 including a +4 socket bonus. It is worth using 1 Puissant Dreadstone which results in a greater overall gain of stats if only the socket bonus is +6 or +8, but it is also usually better finding an alternate gearing pattern by switching the JC bonus ArP and Agility gems around.
    When I read this part of the guide, I thought back on your stat priorities section. Specifically, this part;
    4) Mp5 - 0.18 DPS per point of additional Mp5
    If mp5 is a dps gain, then wouldn't it behoove you to use an arp/mp5 gem instead of an arp/stam gem? I would already normally say this, but I'm using the context of your own guide here to validate it.

  12. @Lynea - Hi Lynea, I have nothing targetted specifically at you or am saying that you are accusing me, I am just mentioning the specific amount that I did as opposed to the number you mentioned. It is just that I have had this conversation with magaghino before, and frankly am tired of this pointless conversation. About the other feedbacks that you left, I would thank you for them and will address them appropriately, when I return home. About the trinkets section, I mentioned that it is a rough order assuming hit cap has been reached and also close to the ArP cap. The trinket passive effects and the procs combined would still make that order hold true. Yeah, I mentioned that Needle can not be accurately compared as the ArP procs value can fluctuate, perhaps it is better to also suggest about Needle helping hit the soft cap too.
    And yeah, I did not mention pre-potting either, did not want to go into playstyle at all because for one thing there are other guides on that and also because I hoped to not create this very specific argument about the usage of traps.
    Yeah, I hadn't realized I had typed in Zod in that Q/A.
    For the last part, I specifically mentioned the value of Mp5 in the scenario of an insta-80ed hunter with no mana pool. It is extremely unlikely that anyone would accept that hunter into ICC. But if he does get into ICC, has a single item with a single socket, he is, indeed, better off gemming Mp5. I have specifically created three scenarios and mentioned stats like Mp5 do not exist as a source of DPS gain when you have decent intellect from gear and/or a source of mana replenishment. This is completely irrelevant though as I have clearly mentioned that it applies true only in the case of an insta-80ed hunter and the stat values weigh differently at a different gear level.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  13. You're clearly contradicting with yourself in an attempt to prove others wrong, of which I see no meaningful point.

    Of course though, I fail to see any meaningful logic in this statement of yours at all.
    For starters; If you really like to do math like you say you do I openly invite you to do the mathematic properly and check the damage difference between one ring and another in longer fights. That's as far as I go here.

    You have mentioned presenting this value multiple times and you had multiple chances during the old core, the answer you gave was "tomorrow" which of course, never came. In addition, I presented you the formulas from Shandara's Spreadsheet and the comparisons in Warmane's server, so there's "retial and Warmane" for you.
    The answer never came? The answer did come with this new core. I haven't been raiding at all but I'm aware that your damage did lower. So don't try to pull a smart *** stating that Chimera Shot is all the nerf you got 'cause that's not the only reason. Also when you had MULTIPLE hunters pointing out to you that the damage was not normal and you blindly believe that you're the one right - I guess I can't help you. Maybe a so called God might help you in this time of despair.

    And I have got no mention of what they are double dipping off either. Simply "double-dipping" traps. Double dipping off what? Agility? Intellect? RAP? Spirit? LOL. No mention of that anywhere, simply the overusage of the word "double-dipping" and without any proof to back it up.
    You're right. Maybe the word double-dipping is not right since my native language is in fact not English. But one thing is right though: Stating that you can reproduce the same numbers is a massive bullcrap since several hotfixes for the traps were released. Also, as far as I remember, didn't Talarina shove numbers in your face proofing that you were wrong? Same numbers that made you be all butthurt and go to the PTR to try to reproduce the same numbers? (Since you want to go personal).

    Also you seem to have forgot the exercise where the raid was wiping because the raid leader (a healer) and a few others dropped their tasks to see if I was exploiting trinkets by any chance and failed at it.
    I'm sure your guild leader and officers will be proud of reading this. But I don't blame them for having doubts such an issue when your so called Teacher, back in Epic and Aeturnum, did swap trinkets all the time and abused professions in order to beat the living hell out of the other hunters. (Yes, I can be personal as well - Again. And you don't want me to keep going this way 'cause I know a lot of things. A LOT.)


    This is another statement backed with no proof. Because, the last time this was talked about magaginho mentioned having done 700k+ on the DBS fight, whereas I had never been able to exceed 300k+. So I wold take the 1 mil+ damage with the proverbial "pinch of salt" too.
    Salt on a hunter that needs to do AoE damage to prevail against other hunters? No. We're stating the obvious; The damage scale of the Trap ability ( I won't even talk about those Multi-Shots) was not right and that's the bottom line. Do I really need to ask Talarina, Tink and other people to show the anormal damage meters that you refuse to see? You were called out by multiple people about this - No conclusive answers were ever given.

    And what exactly are the basis for this maths? You have mentioned neither the damage of an individual trap, nor the length of the fight, simply "I did calculations and got X amount", what calculations did you exactly do.
    Calculations were done through a test with the Spec that you so love to use and with the glyph you also liked/like to use. Now here's the thing;

    The test was done in Training Dummies where I targeted a level 83 and two level 80's. Even then, I wasn't able to get even near the damage that you state that is legit (in a single target when I'm damaging three). I was buffed, the only thing I was missing was a 30% buff from ICC that even with that percentage increase in the damage value - Doesn't get nowhere near. Oh! Also, on another note:

    The only way that traps were doing more damage than they were supposed to is that partial resists simply did not exist. If because of this traps were an exploit, then ever single class was exploiting because come to think of it, neither were mind flay subject to partial resists nor were Frostbolts.
    There is a big difference: One thing is exploiting because you have no other alternative (Example: Shadow Priests can't avoid it since Mind Flay is a core ability and they need to use it - Same way for Hunter's Chimera Shot was working), other thing is forcing a spell that is NOT a core ability in order to raise your personal numbers. That reminds me of when the Misdirection Bug was a thing - Just because you it exists it doesn't mean you have to use it in order to do a proper job. But then again if you want pictures of that damage we're talking about - Ask Talarina for some of those. I'm pretty sure he has a ton. Also this will be my last post here since I believe this is not the right place for this discussion and the thread deserves respect since it has effort behind it.
    Edited: April 21, 2016

  14. @Lynea - Hi Lynea, I have nothing targetted specifically at you or am saying that you are accusing me, I am just mentioning the specific amount that I did as opposed to the number you mentioned.
    Fair enough. Ignore what I said there then.
    For the last part, I specifically mentioned the value of Mp5 in the scenario of an insta-80ed hunter with no mana pool. It is extremely unlikely that anyone would accept that hunter into ICC. But if he does get into ICC, has a single item with a single socket, he is, indeed, better off gemming Mp5. I have specifically created three scenarios and mentioned stats like Mp5 do not exist as a source of DPS gain when you have decent intellect from gear and/or a source of mana replenishment. This is completely irrelevant though as I have clearly mentioned that it applies true only in the case of an insta-80ed hunter and the stat values weigh differently at a different gear level.
    I don't disagree with you. Though there was one point where you mentioned that there are those times where you oom in p3 on Halion. So, just saying, sometimes **** happens.

  15. @magaginho
    Sure, I give you an open invitation too to point out what exactly is wrong in the maths that I did.
    No, LOL, I know multiple hunters too outside of desolation, who can assure you otherwise. And where does God fit in a discussion of mathematics?
    No, Talarina, whoever he is, did not "shove" or in any way provide any sorts of numbers at all.
    I presumed when you used the word double-dipping you were actually referring to it, I am not trying to be personal by any sorts, English is not my primary language either.
    I am sure that whoever did that is proud of himself too LOL.
    I used DBS just as a benchmark fight because you mentioned related numbers on that fight, pray tell me a few possible ways to AoE on Festergut or on BQL. The MM tier 3 talent increases Chimera/Aimed shot damage when you get a killing blow which contributes to DPS on the boss. The use of multi-shot should have been self-explanatory by this talent.
    "Calculations were done... Test was done... Damage couldn't be reproduced.." - Again, where are the results?
    And finally, if Blizz intended so, these would never have existed at all in the MM spec.
    Edited: April 22, 2016

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