WotLK Libram of Valiance as BiS

[Lynea]

Since when is PoJ a threat talent?

Instead of furiously typing to respond, I'd recommend you sit back for a moment and try to comprehend what I've said. Nothing in that quote references Pursuit of Justice.

The argument was that he'd take Vindication over PoJ and my statement was just to clarify a way of having both. Enlighten me where I stated that threat would be an issue or wouldn't be covered.

If you had read my post in its entirety, and my original post in the thread, I think you'd understand that the talents you're trying to argue about are preference at best. That said, again, what I specifically stated there had nothing to do with Pursuit of Justice. But since you're so stuck on that argument point, one could argue that Pursuit of Justice could be a threat talent since it allows you to arrive at your target faster and allow you to start building threat sooner.

However, the point I was trying to make is that you are arguing with him that your 25-man group should cover Vindication's necessity. And then you proceed to suggest that he talent into crit instead. Which is a threat talent, when threat should already be covered by yourself and your 25-man raid just the same as the AP debuff. If your group and/or leader chooses not to take competent Rogues or Hunters, then that's a problem with your group. Just because you have to compensate for that problem does not mean everyone else does.

You cannot be prepared for everything. The example always been LK.

Your example is irrelevant. The only unpredictable variable is human error. Attempting to compensate via an assortment of talent and/or gear selections has become first nature here on Warmane. Everyone specs into their raid buffs. Everyone builds their gear sets based on the precedent that there won't be someone else to cover it (whether it be threat for tanks, hit rating for dps, etc.). That is a fundamental flaw in your approach to the situation here. People who approach the game in this way either A) haven't the slightest clue what they're doing, or B) their group isn't stable in any way.

Just the same as human error, there is the possibility of perfection in execution as well. For those players who are able to compensate for human error with their own capability within the game, there is absolutely no reason to support them getting a talent when their own capability nullifies the usefulness of that talent.

TLDR: A recent quote from myself on another thread. Different context, but the point remains the same.

A class guide is obviously aimed at people who want or need a guide, people who are new to the game or the class. Not imbeciles who think they know everything.

I get that there are people who are solely concerned with being right. And that you are one of those people. I'm sorry to inform you, but nobody really cares if you are right on the internet or not. The only thing of importance is that correct information be dispensed to those seeking it, not misinformation and petty bickering from individuals who think they know everything.

About Sotp, it's pretty weak when it comes to threat generation. I'd put those 2 points into reckoning if I wanted more threat (assuming crusader has already been taken).

While I agree, it's not that great, it's also not RNG. While speccing into crit is RNG. Some people like to avoid having to deal with RNG as much as possible. I know you already know this about Reckoning, but I think it's still worth mentioning for the benefit of others. Reckoning can be a problem outside of ICC, and on Lady Deathwhisper and Sindragosa (assuming parry haste works). Even if the parry haste isn't working, people should still remain wary of it, should it ever be fixed.

Yeah, extra movement speed helps both you and your raid here.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sZi0tAbuMusIufzxfMobc

This is what I generally use. It's about as defensive as a prot pally spec can get.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sZA0tAbuMGsIufdxfM0b
This is what I've been using to tank for my guild at the moment. Threat is a non-issue for me, since I have some top-tier Hunters and Rogues to take advantage of (in addition to the fact that I've never really had an issue threat-wise anyway, unless my favorite feral is in the raid). So I don't spec into Conviction or Crusade (I love Crusade, but fortunately not necessary for me). DKs are almost non-existant in our group, so JotJ is necessary (it does work, just doesn't display visually for some reason on certain bosses). The extra point in Spiritual Attunement is to partially compensate for our lacking sources of Replenishment.

This is a 10-man raid environment I'm speaking of at the moment, though. For larger raids with allied guilds, if I tank, I'm more commonly on my DK. And in the case of my paladin being necessary, she does have a second spec to spare for talent differences.

My point is that there are cases that do validate a change of talents.

[Selaya]

Of course the set-of-talents being used is not set-in-stone.
The point however is that any given variant of a set of talents should include 2/2 PoJ because this is a talent that you cannot possibly cover by any other means available.

[Qtinz]

If you had read my post in its entirety, and my original post in the thread, I think you'd understand that the talents you're trying to argue about are preference at best. That said, again, what I specifically stated there had nothing to do with Pursuit of Justice. But since you're so stuck on that argument point, one could argue that Pursuit of Justice could be a threat talent since it allows you to arrive at your target faster and allow you to start building threat sooner.

However, the point I was trying to make is that you are arguing with him that your 25-man group should cover Vindication's necessity. And then you proceed to suggest that he talent into crit instead. Which is a threat talent, when threat should already be covered by yourself and your 25-man raid just the same as the AP debuff. If your group and/or leader chooses not to take competent Rogues or Hunters, then that's a problem with your group. Just because you have to compensate for that problem does not mean everyone else does.

Now I'm questioning your reading comprehension. I clearly stated to spec out of crit in order to get talents like Vindication instead of sacrificing PoJ. It was him suggesting SotP over PoJ. But hey, maybe it's just your furious attempt of typing to respond.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sZA0tAbuMGsIufdxfM0b

I don't even understand why this discussion has run this road, if you are using PoJ yourself. You are clearly arguing just for the sake of doing so.

And the more fun thing even is:

Spoiler: Show

The point here drops into two possible options;

A) You feel comfortable enough with your tanking and you're in the top of you gaming when raiding end-game content and you know how to counter specific situations with different abilities. This is why you have so many spells as a Paladin in your spellbook.

B) You don't feel comfortable and you need the movement speed increase.

Your example is irrelevant.

I get that there are people who are solely concerned with being right. And that you are one of those people. I'm sorry to inform you, but nobody really cares if you are right on the internet or not. The only thing of importance is that correct information be dispensed to those seeking it, not misinformation and petty bickering from individuals who think they know everything.

Not really a point if Mrs. Knowitall is poosting this. :)

[Beanlord]

While I agree, it's not that great, it's also not RNG. While speccing into crit is RNG. Some people like to avoid having to deal with RNG as much as possible. I know you already know this about Reckoning, but I think it's still worth mentioning for the benefit of others. Reckoning can be a problem outside of ICC, and on Lady Deathwhisper and Sindragosa (assuming parry haste works). Even if the parry haste isn't working, people should still remain wary of it, should it ever be fixed.

Honestly, I did know, but forgot it completely. Anyway I was only comparing the talents in terms of threat generation.

Everyone builds their gear sets based on the precedent that there won't be someone else to cover it (whether it be threat for tanks, hit rating for dps, etc.). That is a fundamental flaw in your approach to the situation here.

I can't entirely agree here. Mainly with the threat for tanks. Even if you have superb raiders with you, there's nothing wrong in starting a fight with more assurance via w/e means, you know what I mean. But this talk is probably better left for some other thread.

P.S. I assume that when you referred to the hit rating that dpsers get, you meant something like people going for hit rating above their respective minimum caps?

[magaginho]

1) By the end of Phase1 there is a high chance you have to deal with adds while the next wave is spawning. With lower/slacking DPS you will definetly have to deal with Reanimated Fanatics. If you really think that it's up to you to control this situation I don't know what to say.
2) Yeah, espcecially in transition phases where you might wanna absorb some damage...
3) Ever seen people get rekt by Oozes in less then 1s? Any increase can make the difference.
4) I don't get your point!? The tombs have a LoS part which makes healing a lot harder. The healers have to expose themselves to MB and the less time you need on a tank swap the better it is. Period.
5) Most of the time you won't be able to get all, you have to get as many as possible.

1) In the same way you point out that "if you think it's up to you to control the situation" I'll backfire it. If you think the 15% movement speed will make you control the situation you're completely lost in your blasphemies. In that specific situation what kicks in are your reflexes, not your reflexes.

2) Absorbing damage? If we're actually talking about what I think we are I'll assume that you're talking about the Ooze explosion, for example. If you're so many miles away from the raid you're doing something wrong. Plus in case of you wanting to soak damage there's a thing called Divine Sacrifice that has a huge yard range.

3) Yes, I've seen how Oozes are destroying players in one second. But there's another thing - They're actually really slow so that means that as a MT you can actually taunt them wherever they are, since you're usually in the center of the room, and you even have time to search for a movie while you wait for them to get to you.

4) The healers have to expose themselves... Funny. Last night I actually went to do ICC as a Holy Paladin and you know... There's a thing called beacon. Where I can just behind the LoS comfort and still keep the tank up while bouncing Beacon. It's being aware of how to play with the abilities and knowing how to react to adversities. I'm hitting the same key over and over and over.

5) You're right. You won't be able to get all of them. Not even with the movement speed increase. I can guarantee you that if the raid is doing the proper job to the Vile Spirits you won't soak more Viles than me with that talent. Wanna know why? Because they're being slowed by multiple players which means you have all the time in the world to soak them. If you truly believe that PoJ is a mandatory talent instead of an optional talent I don't know what to tell you.

And you know, most of your arguments have a point I can understand, in some way at least, but then again I'm asking myself: What exactly are you loosing by taking a talent that's a survivability increase? Your choices are

SotP - Wtf?
Vindication - Your 25man setup should cover this. And even if it isn't covered you can still take it with the sacrifice of a little bit of crit. And by your own arguments you shouldn't be in need of this threat as a paladin anyways.

The Vindication argument was already settled and done by Lynea. About SotP - Those are two points that are based in a pure % value that are non relying in a RNG factor. You might point it out as useless but what I see is a 6% damage increase from my seals which converts into a direct and stable damage increase. Why do I want more damage? Because those two points are clearly optional and I rather do more damage than going into more movement speed when it won't help me in overall performance SINCE, thankfully, I've always raided with competent people.

You cannot be prepared for everything. The example always been LK. Tanks die at LK. With every guild I did LOD, no matter if we farmed it or were progressing towards the kill, we had tries with a dead MT during the beginning of P2, during P2 or even, and this being the most dangerous one, in the middle of P3 while the OT is out for soaks. This just happens. Or maybe this doesn't happen to you and your guild, in this case I'd be glad to raid with you for the rest of my life.

Obviously the tanks might die on Lich King and badly prepared MT's die on the start of Phase 2. That's what differenciates the Regular, Good and Excellent players. I just don't really connect PoJ to this point anymore. If your tanking partner dies for some odd reason thats when you have the need to have reflexes and the need to read the raid while a possible battle ressurection goes out. Those 15% movement speed won't save you in overall since, with the examples you stated, you're dependent on the good performance and reaction from the raid members themselves. If they're slow to understand what's happening and what kind of placement they need to have you could be Sonic The Hegdehog and you would still fail.

A tank build and setup will always rely on the condition and awareness of the raid group. Like I stated above, thankfully, I've always raided with competent people that have never compromised my movements and never compromised my "stressful" decisions.

Yeah, extra movement speed helps both you and your raid here.

No it won't. Find one of those players that likes to move three seconds later and you'll tell me how much those 15% movement speed increase saved you. If I can get out of a Defile hitbox in one second there's no point for me to use a movement speed increase. It's a personal decision and there is no right or wrong. What I've seen so far was two players trying to proof me that I should use points in a talent that is completely optional and debatable for multiple situations. Every single mechanic of the game has multiple answers to it; The game is not that complex but people like to make it sound like it is. Like I stated above, I don't know what kind of experience you guys had with your raid groups, but me personally, thankfully, I've been blessed with a raiding guild that is more than aware and more than competent.

Now I'm questioning your reading comprehension. I clearly stated to spec out of crit in order to get talents like Vindication instead of sacrificing PoJ. It was him suggesting SotP over PoJ. But hey, maybe it's just your furious attempt of typing to respond.

I'll advice you to check your terms. Suggesting is not a mandatory option. It's a personal option. As you stated, and well, your personal opinion might be worthless but you can always point out possible builds and possible alternatives. If you consider that a flat 6% damage increase is unworthy to look at and if you truly believe that tanking should believe in RNG in multiple ways, be my guest. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I have to agree with you and that also means that people don't have to take your words as 100% reliable.

Honestly, I did know, but forgot it completely. Anyway I was only comparing the talents in terms of threat generation.




I can't entirely agree here. Mainly with the threat for tanks. Even if you have superb raiders with you, there's nothing wrong in starting a fight with more assurance via w/e means, you know what I mean. But this talk is probably better left for some other thread.

P.S. I assume that when you referred to the hit rating that dpsers get, you meant something like people going for hit rating above their respective minimum caps?

I don't remind myself of saying that I took SotP to generate more threat specially when I already generate enough threat as it is (and with Mithrios? How in the world do I do this?). I do it because my personal preference is to have a slightly higher damage output with my seal. Again: PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

[Lynea]

I can't entirely agree here. Mainly with the threat for tanks. Even if you have superb raiders with you, there's nothing wrong in starting a fight with more assurance via w/e means, you know what I mean. But this talk is probably better left for some other thread.

If you feel something is necessary, it is definitely your prerogative to get that thing. That's the whole point. There are a fair number of builds, gear or talents that will be subjective because of that. If you want to get something "just to make sure", that's fine. But at points, it can also be inefficient. Though I expect the approach most players on the server have is due to the lack of stable groups.

P.S. I assume that when you referred to the hit rating that dpsers get, you meant something like people going for hit rating above their respective minimum caps?

I'm referring to people getting a certain amount of it based on their usual raid comp - Draenei racial and Misery (shadow priest) debuff as examples. It's like a Draenei ret paladin gearing 8% hit rating. It's a waste of stats. The same notion is applied to a steady group of raiders. Having duplicate buffs/debuffs in a raid is a loss of efficiency, especially when those things are optional, and the same applies to hit rating, haste, etc. for a variety of specs/classes.