Cataclysm Ignite

[Davelan]

Mfw top fire mages on retail could only pull 50k-55k max >.>

And that is why I said Im not the guy to talk since I can't test my actual dps atm. Running at 300+ms constantly is hard :(

@ How to get best ignite? Get combustion helper

[Davelan]

This is a 7 min sustained self-buffed without using pots or pre-potting. I am 407 almost bis firemage.

Best combustion is 16k per tick. Burst dps is 32k. I used LB as soon as possible after the blast with barely any downtime for any spell (cept for when using evocation and mana gem). My ping was 300 but it was pretty smooth this run thankfully (cuz this was sleep hour for western countries).

The 2 time 16k per tick were when I got a double pyro proc cuz I used instant pyro right after finishing another fireball which critted giving me another pyro.... so luck. 26k sustained on an almost bis mage... That really doesnt seem like the highest dps class in cata to me (given that loldary staff isnt available, it still cant make that much of a difference).

Im pretty confident on my pve mage skills... not the best but pretty decent, I didnt spend months practicing, watching and reading over and over again to catch the right rng for nothing.

please some1 show me something extremely better. I would expect myself to do at least 32k under same conditions.

[Davelan]

Recently Ive been able to pull higher combustion ticks (14-16k), so Im assuming the adjusted the numbers (Cap based on mana, spell power increased) a bit.

Leaving these links and info here so that I or anyone with the time to do the theory craft:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...4-3-Compendium

Spoiler: Show

Here is the breakdown of damage combustion does by components:

Combustion: 7374 tick - [100%]
----
Ignite: 9704.8/2 = 4852.4 [65.8%]
Living Bomb: 5612/3 = 1870.6 [25.35%]
Pyroblast! dot: 1953/3 = 651 [8.8%]

Spoiler: Show

Posting some formulas taken from EJ forums that didn't really change:
IgniteTickDamage = 0.2*AnyCriticalStrike
Combustion Tick damage = PyroDotPower/3+ LbDotPower/3+ IgniteTickDamage/2

http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/4552958356

Spoiler: Show

TL;DR: Your Combustion damage is Pyroblast/3 + Living Bomb/3 + Ignite/2, the first two don't vary by much but Ignite can vary by tens of thousands; don't combust on a small Ignite.

Living Bomb
LB is pretty much always up. It contributes around 2k DPS to Combustion. Combustion ticks every second, so 2k DPS = +2k tick value.
Divide tick by 3 to get Combustion DPS

Pyroblast
Pyroblast isn't always up. Nor is it imperative that it is up for a good Combustion. It contributes around 1.5k.
Divide tick by 3 to get Combustion DPS

Ignite
Ignite is where the rest comes from. If your Ignite ticks for 20k, that's 10k Combustion DPS right there. The secret to big Combustions is big Ignites. This means you do not combust just because you have all 3 DoT's up, you combust when you have a big Ignite.
Divide tick by 2 to get Combustion DPS

What exactly to put there varies with gear. More spell power (and mastery) = bigger Ignites. If you are at 400 ilvl, I would say 20k. And as a daring guess, remove 1k for every 2 ilvl below. But it's up to you to find the right number. If you have a bad raid setup that will also bring the number down.

So let's say you set it to 20k. You build up a nice Ignite while somehow not getting Hot Streak (it can happen :P), and MBI goes bling bling 24k. You have Ignite and Living Bomb up, but no Pyroblast. Should you Combust? Hell yes. Pyroblast is worth 1.5k as I said above, which is the same as 3k Ignite. Effectively 24k Ignite is the same as 21k Ignite + Pyroblast. Don't let lack of Pyroblast DoT waste a good Ignite.

Another Combustion fact that might be useful to know is that it doesn't double dip. Your mastery improves your Ignite, Living Bomb and Pyroblast DoT damage, it doesn't then improve Combustion's damage again. Combustion also isn't affected by anything on the target that increases or reduces damage taken, but again, its constituent DoT's are, and so it does get the benefit or penalty regardless, just not doubly.

[Davelan]

So Im not sure how I can test expect ignite and its stacking but I did bit of testing (Will post full results later after I get a significant pool) But I think ignite is dealing 21-22% more damage than its suppose to.

Again, not sure how I can test the initial problem yet. Anyone wanna give me a hint :/

Nvm Im stupid, I did not factor in my mastery >.> (Increases dots by ~22%)

[Davelan]

So since Im talking to myself mostly here, might as well use this as a note taker o.o

A difference Ive observed, compared to how it was before, is the ignite damage tracker on Combustion helper. So after each fight (Starting when I agro a mob, or the dummy in this case, to when that agro drops completely) CH would report my ignite damage, how much is expected, how much was applied, how much was lost (difference of the prior 2) and the percentage lost.

Before the loss and % was almost always 0, cant think of a situation where it would be different (Some1 help me?). Now, when I run a full dps test, it would always show a loss. The % lost varies from what seems to be 8%-20ish% or maybe more, but I haven't had the time to record them correctly.

No conclusion or sound theory yet, just an observation. Still formulating a better method of testing, went through a few and noticed there are too many variables I did not eliminate.

[kairxa]

So since Im talking to myself mostly here, might as well use this as a note taker o.o

A difference Ive observed, compared to how it was before, is the ignite damage tracker on Combustion helper. So after each fight (Starting when I agro a mob, or the dummy in this case, to when that agro drops completely) CH would report my ignite damage, how much is expected, how much was applied, how much was lost (difference of the prior 2) and the percentage lost.

Before the loss and % was almost always 0, cant think of a situation where it would be different (Some1 help me?). Now, when I run a full dps test, it would always show a loss. The % lost varies from what seems to be 8%-20ish% or maybe more, but I haven't had the time to record them correctly.

No conclusion or sound theory yet, just an observation. Still formulating a better method of testing, went through a few and noticed there are too many variables I did not eliminate.

I didnt really play on neth anymore but the last time i play there:
1. There is a cap on ignite
2. Ignite munching doesnt work therefore you cannot really trust combustion helper on damage loss and so on. It is advised to track crit manually :(
3. Dummy sometime reset debuff and drop ur ignite.
4. If you want to test ignite stacking try to remove any proc from your gear and do alysrazor solo flight. This can help track how ignite really stack compared to dummy.

[Davelan]

I didnt really play on neth anymore but the last time i play there:
1. There is a cap on ignite
2. Ignite munching doesnt work therefore you cannot really trust combustion helper on damage loss and so on. It is advised to track crit manually :(
3. Dummy sometime reset debuff and drop ur ignite.
4. If you want to test ignite stacking try to remove any proc from your gear and do alysrazor solo flight. This can help track how ignite really stack compared to dummy.

Yeh dw I'm aware of some of these:
1. The cap is a soft cap based on your mana and INT/Spellpower
2. Due to ^ munching doesn't work. and I'm guessing that's why Comb helper shows ignite loss
3. That's an aggro issue and only happens when some1 else not in your party aggros the dummy, I went to IF during very quiet hours to test so never had that happen.
4. I'm not sure how that helps, could you elaborate?

[Davelan]

Of the new changelog

Ignite fixed report #26413

Cant seem to find report 26413, what exactly did they fix o.o

[woohoos]

4. I'm not sure how that helps, could you elaborate?

i will finish this for him. Alysrazor is a fight where the guy who's flying is going to get insane haste levels and later on even huge crit boost, the reason why fire mages are best flyers is that with huge haste they can spam 1 second pyroblast and crit non stop, having ignite at all time, to kill alysrazor mages had to cast combustion 2 times, but without stacking ignite with haste and crit boost it would be impossible, soo mages would fly, spam pyros and get ignite stacked, if ignite falls down mage won't be able to kill the boss due to low combustion

[woohoos]

Meaning soloing alysrazor would prove that ignite stacks. Or atleast with huge haste u can test "how well" it stacks

[Islingr]

Meaning soloing alysrazor would prove that ignite stacks. Or atleast with huge haste u can test "how well" it stacks

true but even back in blizz you needed basically 400+ on a fire mage and minimal lag to solo alysrazor that way, it was doable but I thought I saw Ignite was capped on max player hp, not mana or int (why SSV fire mage was a thing too, more hp and more mastery, much more dps benefit than a haste or int proc/stack)

[woohoos]

Ignite was capped on max player hp

That's very interesting , maybe u got any links about this?

[Islingr]

That's very interesting , maybe u got any links about this?

it *was* on the wowhead.com combustion spell comments I think... the spell that's been removed by wowhead apparently since it came out of use

http://cata.openwow.com/spell=11129 is cata combustion
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=11129 is wowhead's page for it... which basically 404's

it was a 4.0.3 or 4.0.6 comment if my memory serves so it *may* have changed somewhat by the time 4.3.4 came out but I doubt it

since I don't have any logs or screenshots and I checked that comment like almost a year ago when green_dev was on his weekend-fixing spree... can't be 100% on it but I think that's how it was

[Davelan]

true but even back in blizz you needed basically 400+ on a fire mage and minimal lag to solo alysrazor that way, it was doable but I thought I saw Ignite was capped on max player hp, not mana or int (why SSV fire mage was a thing too, more hp and more mastery, much more dps benefit than a haste or int proc/stack)

Thanks woohoo, I already knew that though. But thanks for trying. what I meant to ask is what, in details, will that prove or how.

the cap I said was based on BlueAO's post on the current cap ignite had here on warmane.

Hard capped no, but there is a cap which is determined by your spell power, haste and crit.

I stated the stats wrong.

[woohoos]

what I meant to ask is what, in details, will that prove or how.

I will start with "how" part. Its easiest to prove on alysrazor, cause u got enough haste and crit to actually get multiple crits(or in a way we can call it ignite procs) in a short amount of time, to actually see ignite damage increasing, decreasing or not changing, by watching the changes u can prove that ignite stacks or does not, or does it have some sort of cap if it does how high it is. This is very hard to do on a dummy due to lack of haste and crit.

Revealing all of this info might make peple to reforge in a different way or maybe evem change a playstyle in a way.