You're twisting what's being said in the Bizzard post to try to make a case. "Since we have never gone into much detail about how this hidden system currently works, we’d like to explain exactly how it will work in the next patch." Emphasis to the main point of the post - they didn't go into detail before, but they decided to this time go into detail and list what will change in the next patch. There's no telling how much might have been in place before in this "hidden system" and how much was actually tweaked at that specific patch, nor any mention to in which patch any "hidden system" might have been introduced there. If anything, that post proves that the state you want this to be was only introduced in 3.3.3. Was there something before? Possibly. What was it (in detail) and when was it introduced? Until you have answers and proof to back them up, what we have as solid data are the tweaks introduced on 3.3.3.
Regarding my logic, it should be plainly obvious. You're doing apples and oranges and claiming they both make juice, so they have the same taste. Classes already have the abilities. If we were to go progressively with them, we'd need to make version after version of all the tweaks made through patch versions. Wintergrasp has no abilities to tweak, they would be additions. There's no "wasted effort" if we will go from 0-to-100 anyways. There are no progressive tweaks being added to it that are going to become irrelevant later, only mechanics that don't exist and will have to be introduced.
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Moderator
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Member
So I am gonna guess that in Icecrown Wintegrasp works as I have posted in my original post then right? I am honestly asking since a guy above said it doesnt work as its supposed to and I do not play in Icecrown which is supposed to be 3.3.5.
I am preety sure you played in the retail wotlk. Do you, at any point of the game from day 0 to patch 3.3.5, remember WG in this sorry balance state it is in Lordareon? I certainly do not. I am preety sure most people will back me up on this. For anyone that played in retail it was a common widespread notion that attacking is easier than defending the keep. That it self means that something worked differently internaly, compared to what is happening here. So thats already indication that there was a system in place for sure simply to encourage the keep to change hands regurarly and to avoid creating huge faction imbalances.
Except, if in reality the main thing is that you do not see any problem with how WG currently works, instead of it being a change destined to hit Lordareon when 3.3.3 comes. If thats your honest opinion on why we do not get those changes I can actually respect that since its not my own server I am just trying to give out some feedback because the current situation is annoying a lot of people as explained above from a guy (about the defenders always having more people most of the times since attackers are discouraged from even queuing for WG atm).
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Moderator
This is about Lordaeron, not Icecrown. If this was about Icecrown and something that is working incorrectly there it would have been deleted, along with an infraction for not correctly reporting bugs.
On the rest you're just philosophizing and reminiscing, so I'll quote the part you seem to not have addressed in any way:
Memory Lane isn't going to help you here, only hard data. For the record, I loathe PvP, so I wouldn't have stepped in there for it no matter the state.
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Member
I asked about Icecrown only because your first main point was about this server being in 3.1 and so that balance change is still irrelevant for us. Since Icecrown uses Lordareon's core if the change misses from Icecrown its either a bug or this balance change is ignored whatsoever and we shouldnt be expecting it to hit Lordareon at any point no matter what patch we are in. I won't ''philosophize'' any more since your answer is preety straightforward, a fix in the broken balance state of Wintergrasp will not happen atleast until we hit 3.3, if it ever happens which if you ask me I personaly think it will never happen, but again its not my server so I can 100% respect that even if I believe the logic behind it is totaly wrong.
Also as a last note, you are asking me to provide you with hard data that only blizzard developers could ever provide since this was never revealed to public up to 3.3, so you are preety much asking me on purpose for the impossible.
Thats the whole point of the original post , that this change should be based on common sense about Wintergrasp being broken when it comes to balance and as far as memory is concerned again I refered to it only to prove that we all know from our experience with the retail wotlk, that a system existed before 3.3 anyway (and lets be honest even if you hate PvP, WG whether we like it or not is related with PvE in wotlk because VoA exists).
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Member
This thread seems to have derailed massively. This is about the current state of Wintergrasp on Warmane's Lordaeron realm. In my eyes, to twist it into an argument about "realm progression" is to ignore and belittle the problem entirely.
The fact is that Wintergrasp is heinously unfair on Lordaeron right now, in favor of the defenders. That is an awful state for enjoyability of the realm. Period. Whether there was a hidden mechanism prior to 3.3.3 or not has no bearing on it.
Please, Obnoxious. This really doesn't matter. You KNOW there isn't hard data of any kind, lest you wouldn't post something so pompous. Why don't we focus on what the issue actually is?: Wintergrasp is so unfair that the attacking team doesn't even bother to queue, and thus it isn't fun for ANYONE.
If you really want to draw endless comparisons to retail; retail, from the moment WotLK launched, favored the attackers, not the defenders. This was very clearly deliberate, to foster WG changing hands with relative frequency. That's a GOOD thing for the state of a realm, as it promotes both sides controlling it often. Lordaeron needs this for Wintergrasp's longevity. Without it, WG will continue to die out, and the people (like me) that came to Lord specifically for it will leave with it.
Wintergrasp is an integral part of gameplay at 80, with legitimately important rewards. Please, for the health of YOUR server, look into implementing something that fosters WG changing hands frequently. If nothing is done, WG will die.
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Member
I will try to revive the discussion regarding this topic because I think it is more relevant than ever and quite a lot have changed within the last 2 months. Apparently Wintergrasp remains in the unbalanced state it has always been. What this means is that the defender has an OBVIOUS advantage over the attacker in so many ways. Name it the fact that southern towers die too easy and usually wont take longer than 4 minutes? Name it that it takes too long for the attacker to reach rank 2 and start using sieges before he gets overrun? And the list goes on.
The main point of this thread had been that WG DOES NOT WORK AS IT SHOULD, like it did back on retail. There was a hidden balance system behind WG in order to enable both factions to gain control of it and its big advantages both for PvE (VoA) and PvP (Mark vendors). The details about how this system works were released on 3.3.3, but that DOES NOT mean the system did not exist before. They just went on to release all the details about it with some extra balance tweaks that were released on 3.3.3. So a previous argument that says that this server is 3.1 (soon to be 3.2) and so this system doesn't apply to the server's progressing model is totally invalid.
The reason for reviving this thread has to do with the current server state. Unfortunately with Legion out of the gates and with other factors irrelevant with the post this server no longer has 12k pop as it did (So no WG ain't full for both factions as it once was 24/7). Moreover it seems that in the last month Horde's population has gotten steadily bigger than the Alliance's (not implying that there is a huge difference yet) which has resulted in the horde having almost always more players on WG apart from a few examples during peak times making it even harder for the alliance to attack successfully. This has resulted to the Horde controlling WG for 7 straight days as we speak and in general controlling it for the vast majority of every week leaving the Alliance with only a small window for everyone to use it for VoA, PvP items etc.
The question is if you are a Horde player why should you even care, if you are winning right? What this does is create an obvious faction unbalance since WG contains VoA and PvP vendors meaning the horde atm gains a big advantage over the Alliance. This hurts the server's health in the long run because either everyone will switch to horde so that he doesn't lose the advantages, meaning that the server will become a Dalaran horde AFK simulator or simply half of the alliance will get frustrated and leave. Mind this could change somehow in the future and the horde could be on the same spot.
Conclusion:
The problem has to do with applying the retail balance system posted in the beginning of this thread, that existed since Day 1 in retail in order to make WG less frustrating, balanced and accessible by both factions for a reasonable amount of time. If you are concerned about this server health in the future take a closer look at these points this time.
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Member
Something has to be done, the state of WG is absolutely pathetic.
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Member
I agree 100%. I am on the side that has controlled it most of the time over the last month or two and it still sucks.
Thanks mauroskavalaris for the suggestions and research. When I was on Ragnaros, nobody ever did Wintergrasp I assume that was because anyone could do VoA regardless of WG control until Icecrown and the current core fixed that long standing bug. I don't play on Icecrown now and haven't done WG on Icecrown with the new core so I can't compare.
What I do know is that retail was not like the state it is on Lordaeron when WOTLK was current content. Defending required people get in guns and defend the keep as well as take town the towers. It wasn't as simple as take down towers, Farm GY, GG like it is here on Lordaeron.
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Field Medic Moderator
That would be because Wintergrasp couldn't be done on Ragnaros. The script was never applied to the old core.
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The Wise
Afaik Horde has control over WG for past 3 1/2 weels if i remeber right :)
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Member
The client is running on 3.3.5 talents/gear adjustments. Its a season imbalance not a WG issue lol... Some classes simply won't scale well until next season. So its whoever has the most DK's , Rogues, and Warriors that will win. Clothies are really vulnerable without the extra resil to make up for 3.3.5 adjustments. Relax...Flavor of the month has always been a thing.
$edit - @Obnoxius I think Icecrown needs to be in discussion and especially our AT friends over in blackrock to make sure everything is in order and fixed with IoC/wrathful level gear. A general wotlk pvp discussion is needed.Edited: August 31, 2016
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Member
its true that there are some major bugs regarding wg but its also a disaster atm because 2/3 of ally just afk and even when they dont most lack brain and have no idea and should read a guide how to wg
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Member
Yeah I think the real issue is alliance not trying to win. They had WG just yesterday during the night and now it's horde controlled again.
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Member
The problem has nothing to do with class balance due to talents or gear lol. If you have played wotlk retail back in 2009-2010 you should know that WG didn't work like this at any point of the expansion be it 3.1 or 3.3 . Also even if the alliance does indeed puts less effort into winning WG this doesn't mean that WG is balanced in a way to favor a frequent change of hands. So as it was mentioned above the Alliance got only a 5 hour window last night in the WHOLE week to do VoA / buy PvP gear and it was only during NA times when the server's pop always drops to minimum levels.
So, if this continues to be the case why anyone should bother playing on the Alliance and has obvious disadvantages? The more the faction balance breaks, the more things in the server will break (endless bg queues because everyone is on horde, oversaturation of the economy on the Horde side etc).
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The Wise
What happened when Alliance was winning all the time ?I ve seen 0 QQ threads then.So when situation changes people start to cry.Afaik alliance was winning bgs all the time 3 weeks ago.Not to mention so pro pvpers as well..
Same things with multiboxing,when you are winning it suits you,as soon you start losing you start to cry....
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