The unbalanced state of Wintergrasp

[mauroskavalaris]

Hello Lordareon,
After many weeks of monitoring and playing through the majority of Wintegrasp battles I believe that most people already know that currently the battle for Wintergrasp is completely unbalanced, meaning that atm the defending side has a clear and huge advantage over the attacking side. That is proved by the fact that whoever controls WG atm holds it for at least 2-3, or even more in some cases, straight days (!) without losing it even once whatsoever stomping through the enemy attacker and by the end of the battle camping him in its graveyard. Mind that this has nothing to do with faction balance since its happening for both the horde and the alliance on different time intervals. Right now the only possible way of actually winning as an attacker is during EU sleep time when the server has the lowest pop if you are lucky enough so that you get a lot more players than the defending side so you can zerg them out.

This ofcourse means that VoA, vendors etc are accessible for each faction on huge time intervals, so many time zones or many days that people cannot login (work, school w/e) are excluded from ever gaining accesss to WG if they are not lucky to be available when their faction controls it every 2-3 days.

The reasons for the advantages are more than obvious I will state just a few :
1. It takes little to no time and its too easy to bring down the attackers southern towers even with them defending them
2. Reaching Rank 2 so you can get sieges and start attacking the fortress takes the same time as it takes for the defender to bring down the southern towers, and by the time you get to Rank 2 the defender is returning with 30% damage buff in the base 5 shoting all the sieges.
3. THE BASIC reason this happens is because the retail balance changes that were done in 3.3 to WG so that it can change hands frequently ARE NOT IN EFFECT in this server.

I will copy paste the blue post back from 3.3 where it explains how balance in WG works below :

Here are the key systems in place behind the hidden Wintergrasp advantages and how they will function in the upcoming patch:
There is an internal tug-of-war scale not visible by players which will shift under specific conditions.
The scale starts at 0 (neutral) and can move up to 700 points in either direction favoring the Alliance at one end, and Horde at the other.
This scale is persistent and does not reset to 0 whenever control of Wintergrasp shifts.
If an attacking force captures Wintergrasp Fortress while under the effects of any of the advantages listed below (400-700 points in their favor), the scale tips 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
If a defending force successfully defends Wintergrasp Fortress two battles in a row, the scale tips 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
Each consecutive successful defense after a faction’s first two consecutive defenses will further tip the scale 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
As a quick example, if the scale is at 0 and the Alliance capture Wintergrasp fortress while attacking, the scale will not move. If the Alliance defend Wintergrasp twice in a row after this, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Horde. Each consecutive defense by the Alliance after this will move the scale 100 points further in favor of the Horde each time, bringing the Horde to 400 points in their favor after one unsuccessful defense and five unsuccessful attacks, a total of six Horde losses in a row.
As another example, if the scale is at 400 in favor of the Horde and they capture Wintergrasp fortress while attacking, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Alliance. If the Horde defend Wintergrasp twice in a row after this, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Alliance. Each consecutive defense by the Horde after this will move the scale 100 points further in favor of the Alliance each time, bringing the Alliance to 100 points in their favor after one unsuccessful defense and five unsuccessful attacks, a total of six Alliance losses in a row.
The following advantages are provided at the beginning of the battle for Wintergrasp whenever these corresponding ranges on the scale have been reached:
0-300: No advantages granted.
400: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring Factory under their control.
500: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control.
600: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control and gains access to Catapults after earning 1 kill in battle.
700: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control and gains access to Catapults, Siege Engines, and Demolishers after earning 1 kill in battle.

TL;DR : Implement the retail balance changes that were released in 3.3 so that WG can actually change faction hands frequently, more than once a week if you are lucky.

[qwertzawqw]

100% agree

[smartjew]

TL;DR this isn't patch 3.3 we're on patch 3.1 now.

[mauroskavalaris]

TL;DR this isn't patch 3.3 we're on patch 3.1 now.

Are you kidding me? The server is on 3.3.a . All talents all spells etc are on 3.3.a. The fact they have disabled ToC and ICC doesnt mean the server is on 3.1 ... With your logic they should change all the talents and all the classes back to their state in 3.1 . Thats a bright idea lmao

[Obnoxious]

The released content isn't 3.3.5a, which should be plain obvious by how things are being released progressively since Lordaeron's opening.

[mauroskavalaris]

The released content isn't 3.3.5a, which should be plain obvious by how things are being released progressively since Lordaeron's opening.

Are you even serious? Balance changes that were released on 3.3.3 ARE NOT content. I ll ask again why do we have 3.3.a talents and balance changes then? Why not go back to the state things where back when ulduar was released, if you played the retail game back then? You misunderstand what progressive realm means. Progressive means that all content concerning raids pvp seasons etc is progressivelly released. This has nothing to do with balance changes, since the server from the very first day uses patch 3.3.a when it comes to talents, classes etc .

As far as balance is concerced this server is on 3.3.a so it should feature WG balance changes as much as it features 3.3.a talents . It's more than obvious.

[Obnoxious]

Because we wouldn't create character mechanics just to ditch them along the way. That would be wasting development time.
"Balance mechanics" like this, on the other hand, are something that are just going to be included, not tweaked or removed.
You're free to have your own point of view, but it's not going to change how the server is and wll continue to be handled. Your "balance changes" content should come with the patch when they were released.

[mauroskavalaris]

Again this server is patched on 3.3.a when it comes to balance simply because as you said it would be too much of a fuss to rebalance everything every time a raid tier is released and due to the fact that 3.3.a represents the most balanced state of the whole expansion. That fact is compensated by the raid boss buffs the server features. A quality change that affects only how internally WG works and will improve the lives of everyone on the server without introducing any content, gear or whatnot is on par with the exact logic Lordareon is built on. Otherwise why dont we petition the staff to bring back the 3.1 talents and class changes . This change is irrelevant of any patch. It could have happened back in 3.0.0 for all it matters it would be the same thing.

[Obnoxious]

As I said, you're free to have your point of view.

[Wifibee]

It's always like that and it's a problem that can be fixed with RAID LEADERSHIP.
Everyone has the same ****** goal : fun with seek & destroy and zero strategy.
OF COURSE it's harder to attack a keep than defending it !

But if the attacking team keeps 5-6 players tops on each workshop and defending it, also going back at it every single time, the defense side will just NEVER get them back and can only have 8 vehicles maximum until the first fortress wall comes down, then they're down to 4.
4 vehicles for the defense side. Versus 20.
if you can't win, you deserve to lose then.

Is it easy to win ? No.
Is it easy to "make people listen" ? Hell no.
But if your side is that much tired to lose WG, then you better start some strategy and really, truly assign some WG usual good players as potential raid leaders and listen to whatever the F they say for once.

I remember a time when different classes were used for their strategic advantage and not just to look at the numbers of Them versus Us.
Make group of 4 or 5 rogues/feral druids listen to orders and captures towers in Alterac Valley = easy win.
Make a aoe group of mages/WW wars/etc rush, suicide run style the last cemetery = you'll capture it
And for WG ? Make people listen.

[ShevrosForum]

This thread is important, and really should be addressed.

Wintergrasp on Lordaeron is ludicrously in favor of the defending team. The southern towers die at a feverish rate, and the Keep walls are all but impenetrable. This isn't a problem with Alliance or Horde, as it happens to both sides. Whichever team is defending simply wins.

Horde has had WG consecutively for DAYS, and now Alliance has it for the foreseeable future. I'm a horde player, and most of the games that I played while we controlled Wintergrasp, Alliance had 2+ stacks of tenacity. Now that Alliance has WG, Horde is attacking, and always has tenacity. Why? Because the balance is so out of whack, and attacking is SO hopeless, that whichever team doesn't have WG already doesn't even bother queuing. They simply assume they're going to lose. It's legitimately THAT bad.

This is awful for the state of the game. Not only because it makes WG completely unenjoyable, and thus kills the desire to play it, but also because it limits one faction or the other for immensely extended periods of time. Whichever team doesn't have WG seemingly can't get WG, and that means they have no access to VoA, no access to weekly quests, and no access to the vendors.

I actually have no idea how Alliance managed to take WG from Horde. I have played countless Wintergrasps now, and legitimately every single one I've ever played on Lordaeron, the defense has won. All of them. Ever. 100%. I have only seen control of WG switch this one time, and it happened while I was offline. I logged on, queued for WG, and noticed at the top of my screen that it said "Alliance controlled." It has said that ever since.

Please, I BEG the Warmane devs to look into it. Just do a minor hp change. Increase the HP of the southern towers. Decrease the hp of the walls. A change that simple really would fix it. Everything else is great, and the actual FUNCTIONALITY of WG is top-notch. It's really creazy what an amazing job you all did with getting WG working. It works perfectly. It's just unfair.

[DakMonkey]

@OP: Link to wherever you copypasted that from? I totally agree, but would like to see the original post as well.

@Everyone who is saying this isn't 3.3.5a

Talents, spells, bgs and items are working/getting fixed as if this was 3.3.5a server and there's no reason why wintersgrasp should follow a different route than everything else on the server. This is not 3.1, this is 3.3.5a without few instances.

EDIT:

no access to weekly quests

You can access weeklys regardless of who controls wg.

[Obnoxious]

@Everyone who is saying this isn't 3.3.5a

Talents, spells, bgs and items are working/getting fixed as if this was 3.3.5a server and there's no reason why wintersgrasp should follow a different route than everything else on the server. This is not 3.1, this is 3.3.5a without few instances.

This goes for you too:

As I said, you're free to have your point of view.

For us, this is 3.1 with certain character mechanics at 3.3.5a.

[Hagem]

I agree 100%. The staff should take a look into this.

This goes for you too:

For us, this is 3.1 with certain character mechanics at 3.3.5a.

Don't come with the excuse that the content is 3.1. ITS THE SAME ON ICECROWN WHICH CONTENT IS ENDGAME...

[imlerith95]

http://www.wowhead.com/news=145516/p...alance-changes
From what I have actually gathered the Wintergrsp's inner workings had actually a balance system BEFORE patch 3.3.3. The changes I refered to in my original post were actually the final state of the already in-place balance system of WG , meaning in other words as the blue post itself states with patch 3.3.3 they TWEAKED the ALREADY in place balance system which apparently does not exist in this server. And i quote from the blue post :
"since we have never gone into much detail about how this hidden system currently works, we’d like to explain exactly how it will work in the next patch. Keep in mind that, although this information may feel very new to you, the actual changes being made in the patch to the current system are relatively minor.''

So the way I see this and its always my personal opinion and nothing more, what Obnoxious stated above , as for the realm being 3.1 for us but with a few 3.3.5a changes we felt like including, is out of context since the system existed during 3.1 but not in is final state as it was revealed in the blue post i linked. And to get back to your logic as you said since tweaking talents and class balance every patch would too much a hassle, why not simply include the final state of the WG balance system as it was tweaked in patch 3.3.3 ? It apparently existed before patch 3.3.3 but simply blizzard hadnt revealed up that point how it worked.

Edit: I accidentally posted this from another account I am the original poster
PS: I personally do not remember at any point through 3.0 to 3.3 having the current situation with WG (with it changing hands only every 2-3 days due to the attacking side failing completely every time) back in retail and most people who played the retail should be able to actually confirm this.