Even with BiS, troll racial = +1autoattack only. And the power you gain from berserking purely depending on your proc luck, its another issue. Its not so big + as most of you think. It can only par with blood fury even blood fury doesnt scale is to crit that extra shot all the time. With blood fury affecting all the shots and prolly most of them are crit at that gear easily. Another thing you can stack blood fury with haste procs etc its easier than proccing berserking with only ap buffs. Calculate how many shots you doing in 15 secs all buffed up with blood fury.
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Member
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Member
Ok, lets try to put some numbers in..
In ideal case you would do 2x Chimera, 2x aimed, 5x steady and 7 autoshots -> all with 345 extra ap. You have above 10k ap @bis -> those shots would do 3% more dmg. => that way you get 0.06 chimera + 0.06 aimed + 0.15 steady + 0.21 autoshot dmg.
With troll racial you get 1extra autoshot.
Can someone with bis hunter provide actual numbers? (ap is just a guess + average dmg of Chimera, Aimed, Steady and Autoshot)
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Member
The troll racial itself is better than the AP gain from the orc one. Can't question that.
But you can use the orc racial 1.5x as often. If you - as prior suggested - delay the troll racial beyond BL to have it not overlapping and wait for trinket procs etc. you'll use Blood Fury 2x as often on any fight with less than 4minutes combat time.
A chimaera or kill shot crit will always have a greater impact on your damage than any of those racials. So, especially in BiS gear you won't be able to notice any difference.
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Member
In raw 7 autoshots but with haste buffs autoshots going big numbers not only 7 and you have tons of crits those 350ap bonus multiplies even. Troll racial wont work miracle with haste buffs its always +1extra shot.
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Banned
Even considering that Berserking will still beat out Blood Fury by a fair margin
The real deal of being an Orc is the 5% pet damage
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Banned
Which would only matter with completely working pet scaling.
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Dargenslayer
That is not entirely true imo.
Source: Lordaeron player who never bothered picking up 2-set for t7 as it was broken for the majority of the tier and then saw the pet damage difference once it was fixed.
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Member
Yah, I mean that only in high haste situations where the steady cast time drops below the GCD (as I indicated with the usage of 1.5 seconds as cast time in my response), and only in hopes of a lucky Imp. Steady Shot to proc if it has not procced yet with the first 4 Chimeras. I rarely see myself casting 5 steadys either and I usually do it only on the first round of Steady Shots as I like to cast an extremely powerful Chimera Shot with all the trinket procs up. Otherwise the only other times I do it is near the end of the fight, to end the fight with the AImed Shot if I think that the boss will die before the last steady cast completes. In this case I just delay shots a bit and time it so all my shots get in place, usually I just end with Arcane shot in such a scenario, but I do cast 5 Steadys sometimes. You are entirely correct in what you said though, and it is entirely my fault that my explanation was slightly misleading. Sorry about that, and yeah you did add in the "circumstantial" part yourself too I see. :P
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Dargenslayer
No problem man. I don't think it is valid on this server as the CS SS is way stronger than it should be (if you compare with retail logs you'll see Ulduar geared hunters hitting for numbers that are several thousands above retail geared ICC hunters), but the EJ guys back in the day basically figured out that if you have enough ARP you should be throwing around your rotation a bit. Depending on your gear the rotation could look anything like CS > StS > AS > StS x3 or CS > StS x2 > AS > StS x2. I can't for the love of my life remember how they calculated this though and as I mentioned CS SS hits like a truck here, so it's probably worth it at the end of the day to do the usual CS > AS > StS x4 rota to maximize the chances of getting the Imp. proc for your CS :)
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Member
There is no doubt here. For PvE, Troll is the Master of the Hunter Race. Say what you what like it's a 3 minutes CD compared to Orc's Racial being 2 minutes. Actually being 3 minutes coincide exactly with a 2/2 Improved Rapid Fire Spec'ed Hunter (which everyone uses for PvE). So when you burst any ICC boss with End Game Gear it's gonna hurt tremendously, given that you just unleashed your full castable burst (not including timed trinket procs and what not)
Now if you're "skilled" enough to time it with trinket and your pet abilities it definitely gives you the edge over any other hunter in the raid.
Crit from Bows is irrelevant here. Everyone uses BiS Crossbows or even the normal one.
Damage to Beasts is also irrelevant here, because there is no beasts in ICC
Orc has Increased Pet damage. So what ? That damage is minimal compared to your damage as Marksman. Not gonna talk about pet missing or glancing or even attack power/damage scaling. It has more pet damage yeah but does not rivalize with your own damage as a ranged dps.
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Member
I agree troll is better for pve MM but night elf overall masterrace ? I remember melt + pot + change trinkets was op when trinkets didn't get ICD when first equipped.
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Member
You can't extrapolate how utterly amazing Berserking is for every other class, and then just apply that to Hunters. MM Hunters are the worst-scaling class in the game with Haste. And it's not only that - popping Berserking puts you below the Steady Shot GCD-cap by default (2.0/(1.15*1.2) = 1.45), a threshold where Haste's already lacklustre value takes another massive cut.
This is in fact also why a dedicated min-maxer should pre-pot with Potion of Wild Magic instead of Potion of Speed, because of how Rapid Fire at the start GCD caps you. MM hunters value haste very poorly but have a tremendous affinity for Crit.
1% Crit with bows isn't irrelevant at all, because the bow from Lady Deathwhisper 25hc is a solid option for anyone that doesn't have Fal'inrush 25hc. 2nd BiS as a troll, in fact - excluding the pvp crossbow.
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Member
As bottom line i think if you don`t use both properly you will end up losing dps compere to other buff proper used.
You want to use buffs like this to get the most of them:
Orcs Blood Fury - when both CS and AS are off cd, so when you use it you will cast at least 2x CS and 2x AS on good scenario and they will be affected by Blood Fury buff.
Trolls Berserking - right after you use CS and AS, so SS will get that 10 sec without losing time on casting CS or AS which are not affected by the buff. You don`t want to use Berserking with buffs that already lower your SS cast under the gcd because that will be huge waste of the cd.
There is more deep usage on both cds but i think you get my point. It`s the same for every class that rolls this 2 recials.
ps. I`m not so deep into hunters as DarkenedHue and others of you, so if i`m mistaken please correct me.
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Member
I bet you were one of those filthy Trap exploiters too.
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Dargenslayer
In my experience the benefit with haste is almost close to irrelevant in terms of how it affects your StS cast timer, but rather it has more to do with your auto attacks, which at the end of the day will always be on the top of your meters as an MM hunter. At least during lower tiers.
I've experimented and used Wild Magic for stuff like hero or when popping RF, but in my experience Speed ones gives the same or a great DPS benefit, even when there is a massive haste buff applied already (Thorim comes to mind here). I haven't laid out the math for this so I couldn't possibly prove myself to be correct here though, so please do only treat it as an anecdote.
Also I'll repeat again - the great benefit with Orcs is not their active CD, but rather the 5% pet damage. Even if you use a bow and gain 1% crit the 5% pet damage will be far greater in terms of DPS yield. Just because BF doesn't match up to how good Berserking is or can be it does not mean that Orcs are the weaker race.
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