Tanking - Blood or Frost

[taralej]

I think we're really starting to confuse the OP now :D Well, at least he got the main idea that DKs can tank with any spec or hybrid, as long as they pick up the staple talents

[Lynea]

I'd go with something like this http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EMZhxZcgGhx00gf0z0uIV if you really want to pick http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=50121

You shouldn't use SS at all so why pick it? UHB is even controversial on DPS DKs, so again no value. The only DPS talent that is really increasing your tanking potential is WP. All the other talents are useless on a DK tank.

You complain about the DPS value of the spec he built, but then you go and do things (first talent link you provided) such as putting points into Necrosis instead of Night of the Dead & Master of Ghouls OR Improved Unholy Presence (movement speed, allowing you to go for a full stam enchant on boots) OR Reaping (which is a net gain to the number of Death Strikes the DK can put out).
Makes zero sense.
And to top it off, you spec into Desecration, which is useless in the bulk of situations. And those situations that it could be useful in, Chains can be just as effective, if not more-so.

Also, pray tell why he shouldn't use Scourge Strike? If he's got a significant lead on threat, he shouldn't be using runes on Icy Touch. If he has nothing to heal, then he shouldn't be using Death Strike. So, pray tell, what should he be using his runes on?
Additionally, "the only DPS talent that is really increasing your tanking potential is WP." Pray tell why you picked up Morbidity, Necrosis, Impurity and Ebon Plaguebringer? Let me guess, "filler talents"?

All your specs are way to offensive if it comes to raid tanking. For UH I'd rather go a heavy blood subspec like this http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0ER...cgGhx00gf0z0uc for two reasons.
- rune tap
- DRM > Reaping

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with having offensive talents so long as the appropriate tank talents are taken.
Also, this spec you linked has even more problems than the previous spec you linked. Including the already pointed out mis-steps on the Unholy talents, there's no Imp. Icy Touch? Scent of Blood is not necessary on top of Dirge, either. But if you're mis-managing your Runic Power, I suppose that's why you would feel you would need that instead of a threat talent to compensate for the loss of Imp. Icy Touch (which, in case you hadn't noticed, is also a mitigation talent).
In addition, your statement of "DRM > Reaping" is false. Allow me to explain why.
Full death rune procs, this is what your runes will look like;
Death Rune Mastery = BB DD DD
Reaping = DD FF UU

Death Rune Mastery essentially allows for A) more Blood Strikes or Blood Boils (terrible btw), B) more Blood runes in case you screw them up and need more runes for your Rune Tap, C) more Frost runes for Icy Touch spam (for which you opted out of taking the talent for, for whatever reason), D) more Unholy runes for Plague Strike (rare) or Bone Shield in case you screwed up those runes too.

Reaping allows includes all of the above except for A, in addition to allowing more Death Strikes.

In summary, while Reaping may provide less Death runes for screwing up your runes, it provides more Death runes for Death Strikes which Death Rune Mastery does not provide. Death Rune Mastery is far more noob & dps oriented than Reaping is, and less effective and useful for a tank.

Icy Touch has a 7x multiplier to threat, SS has 0. It's a waste to use SS for threat. SS can be used to increase your DPS while you'd sacrifice TPS. And I consider every DPS increase on a tank completely wasted unless you are heavily progressing and you're hitting the berserk timer because of 500 dps.

The DK has three spells that get a threat bonus when used in Frost Presence - beside the standard bonus frost presence is offering on it's own. Those are Icy Touch, Rune Strike and DnD. And you should use those to build up your threat. That's also the reason why DKs are so versatile; every DK in w/e spec has those spells and Frost Presence.

In addition to my previous comments, I have to say that this ^^^^^ sort of thinking is why none of you will likely ever do much of ICC heroic without the 30% buff. People focus so much on themselves, setting up their specs and gear without relying on what other classes, specs or races in their group provide, then insist on providing nothing for their group.
Every bit of damage a tank can do is less damage that the DPS roles do not have to do, which results in a shorter, less stressful fight with larger parsing numbers for everyone. Which results in a happier group and less that they have to carry YOU.


TLDR; This guy's advice is terrible.

[Lynea]

I don't think anybody wouldn't pick you if you were Frost instead of Blood. As for blood being preferred more than Frost that's player preference rather than raid preference. And yeah i'm talking bout Icecrown. I'd think twice about picking you if you were Unholy though. But then again if you're a good tank it doesn't matter.

This is false. If the group already has a MM Hunter (fairly common), BDK dps or an Enhancement Shaman, literally the only thing a BDK tank provides for group buffs is Hysteria. That is, assuming the BDK tank even bothers to take it. Frost is more popular group-buff-wise because of the haste buff they provide for the group, which is less common (limited to FDKs and Enhancement Shamans).
In addition, BDKs are not optimal for every group. If the group that was put together doesn't happen to have a Holydin or Resto Shaman (which can happen with some frequency in 10m raids), then a FDK will be far more effective since healers have to babysit a BDK much more than they do a FDK.
Both specs are very much capable of doing LoD and Halion (done it myself, many many times). In the event someone were doing LoD without the 30% buff, if anyone ever bothers to go hardcore like that (which is the content as it was designed - the 30% buff is a NERF to the content for us casuals), the BDK would actually lose its advantage over the FDK. In which case, the FDK would be a better choice in every regard for that situation with the exception of Hysteria (if you manage to make a group that can down LoD without a single Hunter, BDK dps or Enhancement Shaman in the group for 10% AP, let me know. Kudos for that).

But the real kicker is, Unholy would be the strongest of the three specs if it weren't for that 30% buff. That includes any content that comes before ICC.

Alright, so how about this one? http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EZ...ZcgG0x0zgc0u0d

Other than missing Veteran of the Third War, what am I missing? Why isn't the spec that I've linked considered good? I've got the extra avoidance out of Frost and Bone Shield. I've got some real nice RP generation to spam RP spells for threat.

It isn't that your build is bad. They just disagree with your preference in talents. For instance, my preference is pure Unholy rather than a hybrid build, if I'm to Unholy tank. I much prefer the theme of Frost and I think it is fun too. So I have played that a lot as well (even made a guide for it), but I enjoy Unholy a lot more. I think my main reasons for appreciating Unholy as I do is the spreading of aids (lol) and the intimate understanding of your talents and class mechanics that are required to make the spec truly excel.

I'll share my spec preferences here, in case you're interested.
#1 - http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0eZ...gGI00bxcuz0uIq
#2 - http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0vZ...gGh00dgcuz0uIV

Keep in mind that your spec *should* change depending on the group you are actively raiding with. It is perfectly OK to omit a talent for something else in case it isn't needed. Imp. Icy Touch, as an example. If you feel you don't need the extra threat and another DK in the group is already providing the attack-speed slow, then you can drop it. However, these things are not, and should not, be reflected in these "cookie-cutter" builds (so to speak).

@ #1
Icy Reach - I like this talent because it both allows me to pick up threat on things at greater range (it does happen, no matter what people will try to say) in addition to allowing me greater range (and thus, leniency, in the event something catches up to me to hit me before I am ready for it) with which I can kite using Chains of Ice. This is especially useful on lower end content that you may be doing on Lordaeron, but still has great uses on fights even as late as Lich King for adds (kiting an add to let it die with Necrotic and not have a healer have to dispel it off you, which makes LK hit for less upon entering p2 & for slowing Valks at greater range).

Lichborne - Useful in a variety of locations. Most notably on Blood Queen Lanathel where you can get out of the fear right away without relying on anyone else. This also allows you another source of healing via Death Coil in emergencies.

Ravenous Dead - It is a must-have talent if you utilize your Ghoul (your Death Pact heals you based on your pet's health, not your own) in addition to Strength=DPS, Threat & Parry.

Night of the Dead - I have no idea why people overlook this talent. Check your Army of the Dead tooltip and you will see it is a defensive cooldown. It reduces the cooldown time significantly, so that you may actually be able to use the CD two times on a longer encounter. It also makes screw-ups with your Ghoul (losing it to a mechanic or accidentally hitting the ability when you don't want to Death Pact) much more forgiving. Without this talent, your Raise Dead CD is actually longer than your Death Pact.

Master of Ghouls - Allows you to control your Ghoul. This is useful if you utilize your Ghoul for DPS in any way. It also, just like Night of the Dead, makes screw-ups with your Ghoul CD much more forgiving.

Reaping - I think I explained this point fairly well in my previous post.

Scourge Strike - Same as Reaping.

Rage of Rivendare - I don't know why people devalue this talent. Nothing feels worse than a parried Death Strike that's intended to keep you alive. Even when it's not a matter of life and death, it is still incredibly annoying and bothersome for the healers in a number of situations.


@ #2
This spec is largely the same as #1. The biggest difference is that there is a little less emphasis on DPS and a little more on threat and staying alive. Scourge Strike is dropped, so you'd be using Death Strike in its stead. Dirge & Unholy Blight are taken for more Runic Power for tab-targeting Death Coils which is an additional multi-target DoT for multi-target threat (think of multi-dot-ing on a s-priest or aff lock) which can be useful if you're tanking for people that can and do pull multi-target threat off you. It is also effective to use Death Coil (with Unholy Blight) to follow up an Icy Touch hit at range for additional ranged threat.


If you're not interested in "pure" Unholy talents, then feel free to disregard the part of this post following the 2nd quote.

[Lynea]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I felt it was necessary for each to divide my thoughts.

Hello everyone!

I've done a fair bit of research, both through these forums and others and there is so much information out there. It truly is wonderful. Big shout out to those who have spent their time to help others. I have a few questions though that I didn't really have answered after reading all of the great guides here.

1. Outside the DK playerbase, which spec is generally preferred? Let's say that I can play both frost and blood exceptionally. I would hate to not be considered to tank raids simply because I took blood over frost or vice versa.

2. After looking at all of the suggested specs, I came up with one with a few changes and it would be great to have some outside opinions on it. To be more specific I didn't put any points in Blood Gorged which left me with 6 floating points which I put towards Icy Talons and Necrosis. Will the 8% increased attack speed + the 8% shadow damage outperform 10% armor pen? I've even thought about going 4 in Icy Talons or 4 in Necrosis.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EM...bssZhg0bZ0gh0b

Thanks!

@1. People in general seem to prefer Blood tanks. There are various reasons. There are some people who have played or heard about the later expansions and thus think that Blood is the "tank spec". On Icecrown, in ICC, Blood is generally preferred because of the advantage the 30% buff gives Blood over the other two specs. 30% buff = more HP = more healing. If not for this, Blood is actually the inferior spec. Frost is a good "middle ground" between tankiness VS. skill requirement. It would probably be a good place for a beginner honestly. Unholy is the strongest of the 3 specs, but also has a higher skill requirement than the other specs. As such, it's rare to come across a good one. Because of this, many people have developed a belief that Unholy is "bad" because it isn't played often, and when it is played, it is often played poorly.

[Bensten]

...

If you skip every DPS talent in the UH tree you don't get further than tier 4 of the tree. Same goes for your "advices" on the blood talents.

You further question talents that provide a raid buff and talk about doing nothing for the group.

@ #1
Icy Reach - I like this talent because it both allows me to pick up threat on things at greater range (it does happen, no matter what people will try to say) in addition to allowing me greater range (and thus, leniency, in the event something catches up to me to hit me before I am ready for it) with which I can kite using Chains of Ice. This is especially useful on lower end content that you may be doing on Lordaeron, but still has great uses on fights even as late as Lich King for adds (kiting an add to let it die with Necrotic and not have a healer have to dispel it off you, which makes LK hit for less upon entering p2 & for slowing Valks at greater range).

Lichborne - Useful in a variety of locations. Most notably on Blood Queen Lanathel where you can get out of the fear right away without relying on anyone else. This also allows you another source of healing via Death Coil in emergencies.

Ravenous Dead - It is a must-have talent if you utilize your Ghoul (your Death Pact heals you based on your pet's health, not your own) in addition to Strength=DPS, Threat & Parry.

Night of the Dead - I have no idea why people overlook this talent. Check your Army of the Dead tooltip and you will see it is a defensive cooldown. It reduces the cooldown time significantly, so that you may actually be able to use the CD two times on a longer encounter. It also makes screw-ups with your Ghoul (losing it to a mechanic or accidentally hitting the ability when you don't want to Death Pact) much more forgiving. Without this talent, your Raise Dead CD is actually longer than your Death Pact.

Master of Ghouls - Allows you to control your Ghoul. This is useful if you utilize your Ghoul for DPS in any way. It also, just like Night of the Dead, makes screw-ups with your Ghoul CD much more forgiving.

Reaping - I think I explained this point fairly well in my previous post.

Scourge Strike - Same as Reaping.

Rage of Rivendare - I don't know why people devalue this talent. Nothing feels worse than a parried Death Strike that's intended to keep you alive. Even when it's not a matter of life and death, it is still incredibly annoying and bothersome for the healers in a number of situations.

- Lichborne is a fun talent nothing more. Relying on it's healing potential is just a bad advice. And when did you ever die as tank on BQL flight phases? You can literally chill in the flames for the whole fear duration and you won't die. Especially as UH with less magical damage taken.
- you might want to go to a dummy and check your statement about the ghoul hp part
- Army of the Dead is a talent you shouldn't use to mitigate dmg in oh **** situations. You don't parry/dodge during the channeling time. You most likely only use it for magical damage reduction, so it's highly situational. You won't be casting it twice in a fight nor is the loss of 3 runes always a gain.
- Reaping offers 2 Deathrunes, DRM 4. It has a lot more value for tanking as you don't rely on any rotation. It's also one of your only choices to get to deeper blood, which again offers more tanking potential than any of your subspec picks.
- SS is useless. Your 2 specs don't make any sense if you really think that SS has any value.
- ppl in this thread devalued the talent because they vouched for Veteran of the third War.

In addition to my previous comments, I have to say that this ^^^^^ sort of thinking is why none of you will likely ever do much of ICC heroic without the 30% buff. People focus so much on themselves, setting up their specs and gear without relying on what other classes, specs or races in their group provide, then insist on providing nothing for their group.
Every bit of damage a tank can do is less damage that the DPS roles do not have to do, which results in a shorter, less stressful fight with larger parsing numbers for everyone. Which results in a happier group and less that they have to carry YOU.

If your main goal wouldn't be to increase your insult-counter on these forums you might've been able to understand some of the picks.

Which results in a happier group and less that they have to carry YOU.

You won't find any guild that can say that they carried me to anything. We never raided together and as there is no serious raiding guild left that would take you, we never will. There was absolutely no reason to make this personal, I just gave my advices and we could've had a straight discussion. I'll just end this with a quote to one of your last posts on the hunter's forum that got deleted eventually because of your hateful attitude.

And oh, holy mother of butthurt. Won't even begin to address the rest of the drivel being spewed here. I have no intention right now of engaging in that kind of ****-flinging with players who've never had anything worthwhile to say, as anyone who's been around these forums for a while is well aware of.

[magaginho]

There was absolutely no reason to make this personal, I just gave my advices and we could've had a straight discussion. I'll just end this with a quote to one of your last posts on the hunter's forum that got deleted eventually because of your hateful attitude.

Your quote would be cute if it was for her. It wasn't. It was for me.

You won't find any guild that can say that they carried me to anything. We never raided together and as there is no serious raiding guild left that would take you, we never will.

What do you define as serious raiding guild? A guild that used to down multiple broken LoD's per week? Or a guild that is now finally able to down LoD in a content that is 7 or 8 years old?

[Lynea]

You won't find any guild that can say that they carried me to anything. We never raided together and as there is no serious raiding guild left that would take you, we never will. There was absolutely no reason to make this personal, I just gave my advices and we could've had a straight discussion. I'll just end this with a quote to one of your last posts on the hunter's forum that got deleted eventually because of your hateful attitude.

And oh, holy mother of butthurt. Won't even begin to address the rest of the drivel being spewed here. I have no intention right now of engaging in that kind of ****-flinging with players who've never had anything worthwhile to say, as anyone who's been around these forums for a while is well aware of.

Perhaps you weren't carried by a guild (and the YOU was a generalized remark towards tanks; don't be so self-absorbed), but anyone who would try to say that they aren't carried by the 30% buff is extremely naive. As for it being personal, meh. It's not personal. It's just bad advice. If you take that personally, oh well. At least I can admit when I'm wrong. Also, for the record, what was said in that quote wasn't intended for me. Even if it were, it's obviously false. Unlike yourself, I actually try to provide information for the sake of people's improvement (hence my guides), rather than posting trying to show off how awesome I think I am. That's a terrible and horribly flawed argument. Lastly, why would I want to be any of these so-called "top guilds" anyway? It's old content that I already farmed for years. I'm sorry if me not sticking around or giving two ****s about these guilds getting epeen over farming dated and nerfed content bothers you. Err, nevermind, no, I'm not sorry.

[Lynea]

- Lichborne is a fun talent nothing more. Relying on it's healing potential is just a bad advice. And when did you ever die as tank on BQL flight phases? You can literally chill in the flames for the whole fear duration and you won't die. Especially as UH with less magical damage taken.
- you might want to go to a dummy and check your statement about the ghoul hp part
- Army of the Dead is a talent you shouldn't use to mitigate dmg in oh **** situations. You don't parry/dodge during the channeling time. You most likely only use it for magical damage reduction, so it's highly situational. You won't be casting it twice in a fight nor is the loss of 3 runes always a gain.
- Reaping offers 2 Deathrunes, DRM 4. It has a lot more value for tanking as you don't rely on any rotation. It's also one of your only choices to get to deeper blood, which again offers more tanking potential than any of your subspec picks.
- SS is useless. Your 2 specs don't make any sense if you really think that SS has any value.
- ppl in this thread devalued the talent because they vouched for Veteran of the third War.

@1 - I never said anything about *relying* on Lichborne. However, to deny that it could be useful in some niche situations is to make it very clear of how ignorant or naive you are. The concept is really straight-forward.

@2 - Pray tell what a dummy will do to help me check my ghoul's health.

@3 - Army; Your first part and second part are contradictory. You either recognize it can be useful in niche situations or you don't. It is very much useful for a variety of boss encounters. Even multiple uses for it. But since you're so focused on how "elite" you are in your "top guild", I'd assume you'd know what fights I'm talking about, right? Please keep in mind that this thread's discussion isn't just about your limited experience in ICC.

@4 - You point out the number of Death Runes, but you ignore which runes they replace. Interesting.

@5 - It's not useless. I explained to you it has its use for DPS, which you also acknowledged earlier in the thread. The fact that you can't understand its use goes hand-in-hand with you being carried by the 30% buff. Think about it.

@6 - Comparing two talents is not the same as devaluing a talent on its own. An argument about Veteran of the Third War is irrelevant when you aren't Blood or a hybrid spec.

[jendah]

But the real kicker is, Unholy would be the strongest of the three specs if it weren't for that 30% buff. That includes any content that comes before ICC.

I thought that the main reason why unholy isn't usually opted for ICC is the dodge debuff (and therefore Bone Shield duration), what do you think about that?

[Bensten]

@1 - I never said anything about *relying* on Lichborne. However, to deny that it could be useful in some niche situations is to make it very clear of how ignorant or naive you are. The concept is really straight-forward.

@2 - Pray tell what a dummy will do to help me check my ghoul's health.

@3 - Army; Your first part and second part are contradictory. You either recognize it can be useful in niche situations or you don't. It is very much useful for a variety of boss encounters. Even multiple uses for it. But since you're so focused on how "elite" you are in your "top guild", I'd assume you'd know what fights I'm talking about, right? Please keep in mind that this thread's discussion isn't just about your limited experience in ICC.

@4 - You point out the number of Death Runes, but you ignore which runes they replace. Interesting.

@5 - It's not useless. I explained to you it has its use for DPS, which you also acknowledged earlier in the thread. The fact that you can't understand its use goes hand-in-hand with you being carried by the 30% buff. Think about it.

@6 - Comparing two talents is not the same as devaluing a talent on its own. An argument about Veteran of the Third War is irrelevant when you aren't Blood or a hybrid spec.

@1 On your level of arguments you should be speccing http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49146 . Can also be useful, won't be in any real raid situation, but hey, it's a enough to disagree and just make your own statement. Lichborne can be helpful, but if you need a fear ward on a tank use a priest.

@2 You are wrong about how Death Pact is working. Test it how and whereever you want, but get your facts straight if you want to be the smart one.

@3 Your statement suggested that AotD is an awesome cooldown that should always be used. Yet, especially if you miss knowledge about the fight or have a **** up with your spells - like you obviously have all the time following your arguments to Night of the Dead and Master of Ghouls - you may do much more harm than good using this talent. This is not just about ICC and still you argue for talents like Lichborne with BQL and not a Boss like Auriaya where it really would be useful? You don't even notice the level of your "I'm against it"-arguments.

@4,5,6 You posted a huge wall of text trying to explain why my talent picks are wrong and terrible. You criticize me for taking Dirge, yet you provide a spec using Dirge. You critice me for speaking against SS, yet you provide a spec without SS. Same goes for Impurity and Ebon Plaguebringer. You just tried to look smart. You offered almost nothing new to the discussion other than your advice to take Night of the Dead and Master of Ghouls. Which can be considered, but was not worth the wall you wrote and taking into account that your advice about AotD was missleading and your knowledge about Death Pact is incomplete makes it just a meh statement. You even ignore that I stated that there is a situation where SS or any DPS talent in general is a good pick.

The fact that you can't understand its use goes hand-in-hand with you being carried by the 30% buff.

Your incapability to honor other peoples achievements whenever they were made and whoever made them is the main reason for your posts lacking so much value. Can you provide a video or any prove for you doing ICC25HC without the 30% on Warmane? I'm pretty sure you cannot. All you try is to disagree and to look smarter than most of the people on these forums. That's also the reason your arguments about me being "elite" and "my top guild" is completely irrelevant as you struggle with almost everyone who's here for years and is doing top tier content on a daily basis.
Nobody but you and some of your fellow guildies care for the content being 7yrs old. LK is different from what we fought two months ago, different from what we fought a year ago, different from what we fought two years ago. Same goes for Halion. At the time being we have a bug fix or a new crack in the mechanics on a monthly basis, some of them heavily changing how you play an encounter.

Taking quotes out of your FDK tanking guide you don't even play UH. You "refuse to play any other spec" than frost and you still act like you are the only expert for UH tanking. From your own words you don't even play on this server anymore and moved to retail and you still act like you are the only expert about warmane mechanics. Who's trying to be "elite"?

[magaginho]

That's also the reason your arguments about me being "elite" and "my top guild" is completely irrelevant as you struggle with almost everyone who's here for years and is doing top tier content on a daily basis.
Nobody but you and some of your fellow guildies care for the content being 7yrs old. LK is different from what we fought two months ago, different from what we fought a year ago, different from what we fought two years ago.

So you're saying that it's a struggle to perform as intended on Lich King am I correct? LK is different because it's now working as intended and most of the so called LoD farming guilds can't even touch him right now. Also I would like to give you a reminder; Being a guild that farms LoD now, on a daily basis, still doesn't make you an elite since the content is OLD. Plus when every single mediocre player has Light of Dawn in this server, do you really consider it to be impressive? That's the point being made and I can understand that it might piss some people off but if you really want to be an elite force of this game, move yourself to Retail and go ahead with your attempts of killing Guldan (Legion's Final boss for now) on Mythic difficulty.

I'm still waiting for an answer related to this;

What do you define as serious raiding guild? A guild that used to down multiple broken LoD's per week? Or a guild that is now finally able to down LoD in a content that is 7 or 8 years old?

[Beanlord]

I thought that the main reason why unholy isn't usually opted for ICC is the dodge debuff (and therefore Bone Shield duration), what do you think about that?

Idk about her view on the matter, but afaik BS is usually only used in the "oh ****" moments, right before some major wipe mechanic comes into play. Example: Sould Reaper, Breaths. It's a relatively weak CD if we look at % reduction values, but the fact that it will last a good amount of time + it's low CD make it really attractive for some of these wipe mechanics. Imo the dodge reduction won't actually affect it much.

[Beninius]

I never played Frost, so i wont tell you anything about it but as a Blood Tank i played a LOT. Here is what i think
Blood is great, i always did good with dungeon mobs and raid bosses i barely ever had any problems, its easy to get a good weapon, i recommend it.
Heres a little story: When i was just starting out, my DK was the first to hit 80 so i played with him. With only 5k GS, i was OT in an ICC run and we made to Sindragosa(i was too weak for sindragosa) but hey first 10 bosses with only 5k gs? I think thats pretty cool even for an OT.

[taralej]

I thought that the main reason why unholy isn't usually opted for ICC is the dodge debuff (and therefore Bone Shield duration), what do you think about that?

That, and the 30% health buff. The first one kicks Unholy in the shins, while the second one favours Blood due to the spec's style.

[jendah]

Idk about her view on the matter, but afaik BS is usually only used in the "oh ****" moments, right before some major wipe mechanic comes into play. Example: Sould Reaper, Breaths. It's a relatively weak CD if we look at % reduction values, but the fact that it will last a good amount of time + it's low CD make it really attractive for some of these wipe mechanics. Imo the dodge reduction won't actually affect it much.

The thing is that high avoidance significantly prolongs BS duration (to the point where it can be up for half a minute).
With 70% avoidance you have good chance (50%) to avoid 8 attacks before the fourth one will hit you with 50% avoidance its down to 4. In first case BS would last about 20-30s, in second 10-15. (again counting with probability here - its not guaranteed, but quite likely, it also depends on boss attackspeed and number of adds).

Anyways that is the theory based on rough assumptions and probability. I have no idea how much avoidance does unholy have...
BS is a lot weaker inside ICC and RS (Halion ignores 20% of your dodge, so its same). And it seems to rely on BS a lot - so I wanted to know how much does this affect the spec.