Aaaaa, first of all please don't instantly crucify me. I'm not here to flame multiboxing to the ground, but instead to have a civilized discussion. So I would appreciate if people would not post things like "omg multiboxing is so stupid, why do GMs don't do anything", nor "you just got stomped by a multiboxer m8, suck it up lel".
Now that I got that out of my way;
I realize that Multiboxing is allowed here, or at least condoned, since it's kind of a grey zone. It's not exactly botting, since it depends on player input, yet at the same time you can argue that there's not an individual person behind each character.
Now as for my opinion on this whole concept;
I absolutely don't mind when people do that in PvE, as in dungeons or something. Sure, technically they have an "advantage" in that they have it "easier" to overcome stuff that solo players would struggle with. Sure, they can more reliably do dungeons (and RDF), but since it doesn't really hamper my progress (or at least not more than other people would if they were questing for example), I don't mind it in that regards.
Even in PvP I can tolerate it when there's a 5-man multiboxer in a BG, or heck even ganking world. It's not much different than getting ganked by 5 random people, and it can turn out pretty fun if other people join your quest in taking down the multiboxer.
But what does bother me a lot, is when people overdo it.
Again, idc about PvE.
But when there are people running 15 clients, I find it gets genuinely stupid. Some might argue that "multiboxer-bots are weaker than real players, because they can't react properly". I ask you; What reaction do you need, if you can just nuke one guy after another with a single button?
Don't simply think of it like: "Oh, anyone could just create a 15 man group and coordinate just as well, to focus down a single target." That's not how this works in reality. One guy who is 15 times stronger than a single person is more coordinated/"stronger" than 15 random/grouped people.
Take the typical example of Wintergrasp: Everyone knows how about 80% of the contestants just run around without focus; maybe joining a skirmish to get rank ups, maybe following the lemming train to whittle down the walls a bit.
Then you see that guy, with 14 guys inside each other. Needlessly to say, you'll stand no chance to fight this one-man-army alone. And the chance to coordinate a successful attack with your teammates is just as slim. Your only genuine hope, is that your team is either decent enough not to suicide into the multiboxer, and instead try to flank the other side - or that the multiboxer has absolutely no idea what he is doing, running into 12 catapults.
Raidchat in Wintergrasp is often filled with people complaining about "why is this allowed", "this is so unfair wtf", etc. But then again, people even complain when someone has better gear than them lol.
Don't even get me started when people do this ridiculous magnitude of multiboxing in world. You'll have me laughing for a while, if you're gonna try to tell me, that a 15-man boxer camping/farming/ganking questing zones, or spots like upper ICC entrance (to FoS, PoS, etc) "can be taken down if you know what you are doing".
Luckily I play a Rogue, so I can usually just stealth my way around those. But oh man, did I laugh my *** off when some hunter left the Sanctuary area of upper ICC and immediately got nuked.
tldr; (imo) medium multiboxing is fine - massive multiboxing is nono
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I know that the rules are not up for debate, and I'm not requesting a change. That's not my job.
I want to have a civilized Discussion here, not a roast thread, nor a flame war. Keep your posts relevant please.
And by all means, if this thread seems inappropriate or something, or if it's deemed too hot of a topic for discussion, tell me and take appropriate action.
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Edit: Just as reference, I'm talking about stuff like
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10+-man Multiboxing in PvP - Discussion
Edited: August 17, 2016
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I think anything more than 10 is ridiculous in PvP.
No amount of skill will save you when the entire raid lags from 60 totems being dropped at once and wiping the raid as soon as WG starts.
Or those guys who play 25-40 chars and go to IoC / AV, it ruins the fun for everybody else including those on your own team if the only strategy they use is to sit in the boss room and pick off reinforcements for 30minutes.
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I actually forgot about the massive fps drop from the totems. I usually (try to) avoid the multiboxers area, so I don't notice it as often. My PC is pretty strong, but it still surprises me how WoW can be taxing enough to bring it below 30 fps. I don't even want to imagine what it's like for those with weaker specs.
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Great, another --------- gearless ------------ ------------ player complaining about being owned by a multiboxer.
If you go to pvp with that gear, a multiboxer should be the least of your problems giving that even a warlock's imp can solo you.
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Cough (yes I know my quote is more rude than yours, but it has the same core message)
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COUGH
So um, you gonna tell me 40+ people were gearless just like me?
No but in all honesty, post something constructive and relevant to the discussion. I mean, you already had spent the time to look up my gear, so I'm sure you can give a more valuable input.
Not to derail this, but you do realize that vehicles don't scale of gear, nor do stunlocks (well kinda with res).Edited: August 17, 2016
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If the advantage here is that multiboxer doesn't have to spend time to find a group, then yes they have an advaantage and it's easier than solo players. Other than finding group tho, it's much harder to do PvE content as a multiboxer than as a group of 5 players.
If the scenario is a random death match skirmish fight to the end with zero objectives other than red is dead, then yes, you don't need much reaction from a multiboxer. However, Battlegrounds and WG have objectives spread out on the map, which cripples the multiboxer, simply because he can't be at many locations at the same time. For example a 15man multiboxer vs a 5man premade in AB, it's pretty much impossible for the multiboxer to win as long as the 5man premade just spreads to the 5 bases in AB and recaps them when multiboxer moves to the next base.
Also I don't think there's much point comparing 15 boxer to 15 random people, because in that scenario it's not even really about multiboxing and more about premades vs pugs. When comparing 15 boxer to a 15 man premade, if the gear and skill of the players on both sides is equal, then the premade has a huge advantage over the multiboxer in pretty much any pvp battle.
This also sounds more like a "Premades vs. random groups" instead of "Multiboxers vs. others"
Also since everyone knows how about 80% of the contestants are headless chickens, this also means that 4 out of 5 multiboxers has absolutely no idea what they're doing. This is ofcourse assuming that multiboxers are as equally talented than any other players.
WG is not exactly the ideal place to multibox given that one or two siege tanks can wipe out a multiboxer of 10-20 characters, multiboxers take a lot of damage from vechile and turret AoE and if a multiboxer takes vechiles they are very vulnerable to PR-GGs. The best part of multiboxing in WG is that the enemy usually is not a premade, which helps out the multiboxer a bit, but the more multiboxers you see in WG the faster your faction adapts to playing against multiboxers, even those 80% headless chickens.
Laugh away my friend, I laughed a lot when I saw this: https://youtu.be/QO_RsLCPkoI
Ok. Ganking, camping and boxing in the world. Sure a multiboxer can camp any entrance or whatever, but so what? Just fly towards the instance, if you die, corpse run and respawn next to the instance and jump in. I don't think there's any zone or entrance where this would really be an issue.
Considering the low level zone camping, is it really much different when a multiboxer camps a quest zone than when one or two lvl80s camp a zone? Only difference, in my opinion, is that you can't log your main and come kill them, but doing that would be a waste of time on this server anyways, since during the time it takes you to travel to the zone you got ganked at, you most likely level past that zone anyways.
I wrote a more detailed post about multiboxing, why it's allowed and my point of view a few months ago, you can find it here: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=330004
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What stunlock can you do to a geared player lol ? He will spam /lol in your face.Cough (yes I know my quote is more rude than yours, but it has the same core message)
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COUGH
So um, you gonna tell me 40+ people were gearless just like me?
No but in all honesty, post something constructive and relevant to the discussion. I mean, you already had spent the time to look up my gear, so I'm sure you can give a more valuable input.
Not to derail this, but you do realize that vehicles don't scale of gear, nor do stunlocks (well kinda with res).
If you were horde and you would attack my hunter i would melee you.
"you gonna tell me 40+ people were gearless just like me?" ... just by your photo, 3 people have bad gear and die in one good hit. Also, by looking at those dead people, i can spot at least 4 more bad geared players. So ... right now you are 7. Oh, and to make things even worse, i see you play combat ... with that gear. FACEPALM. Also, i know at least 2 people from that group are afk in every bg and i'm willing to bet they were also afk in that battle. So far you have 7 gearless people and 2 afk. That makes 9.
You can't complain about multiboxers when you can't bring anything in a pvp fight. What can you do , sap one random person and then stay hidden in stealth ?
BTW, a normal group is much stronger than a multiboxing group. If your group is decently geared, you can win vs multiboxers with no problem.
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To summon this topic up: U are mad because u lost to a premade consisting of well geared multiboxer.
U cant expect to beat a premade with low geared random pugs, deal with it.
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I can kinda see where he's coming from. Extremely large multiboxers raise a concern that smallers one do not.
A smaller multiboxer is fairly easy to overpower through individual player skill alone and some basic teamwork, because regardless of their attacks being absolutely brutal, they still can't 'oneshot' anyone without at least a basic attack combo (like Flame Shock + Lava Burst, to state the most obvious of all).
Large multiboxers on the other hand reach that point where single attacks will kill individuals, faster than the average reaction time of a human being. To be beat, their opponents have to manually replicate their brutality and syncronism, by whatever means. The means to do that are often quite complex to achieve on any sort of regular basis, wherea the multiboxer only has to press a few buttons.
No, multiboxing itself, or even large multiboxing itself is technically not "the problem". Yes, a 25 man premade of people all spamming AoE while walking in a close stack could achieve the same - and even more - than a 25 man multiboxer. But be honest, when will you ever find 25 people willing to take the time to syncronise their efforts that way just for a few PvP kills? Maybe you will once in a blue moon, and that one time will be glorious, but for the most part, no.
Hell, I can damn tell you how scary a good manual 'reproduction' of multiboxing is. I've gone on servers that banned multiboxing on me, brought 2 of my friends that also played frost DKs, and went in as a triple frost DK premade while having them literally /assisting my targets and with all 3 of us cross-healing on lichbornes, and calling out death grips/strangulates/etc.
We walked through all the randoms, and it was just as disgusting as multiboxing was, if not more. With only 3 of us.
So no, multiboxing itself technically isn't the problem. The problem is that those very large multiboxers can reliably setup gank squads like that requiring a stupidly high amount of coordination to deal with, at little to no effort on their part, where anyone else needs to go through way more trouble than is worth to achieve the same.
And the result of that is fun for exactly that one very large multiboxer, and no one else.
Say what you will, but there is a size at which point it stops being just multiboxing, and becomes almost straight up griefing. Nope, not against the rules (I mean, if even PreparedWoW on retail can stick around, it can't be, right?), but that's what it is.
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First of all, thank you for putting the effort and thought into your post and your own thread about multiboxing.
Mmmm, while you're right about the grouping, I was more about how multiboxers can quest a lot faster and easier, since they have a lot more manpower. Sure, the kill xp is split up, but the huge amount of Quest XP (in Icecrown) makes more than up for that. And realistically speaking, there is no group of people that will always come online and start playing when you do. Obviously dungeons are a lot harder, since your clients can't fill all roles properly, or at least it would require a lot of effort. But I guess that falls under your "Challenge" category, and hey, I don't mind.
I was thinking about that, heck, during that match in the screenshot, I even suggested people to avoid the boxer and instead move to objectives he was not at. Multiboxers excel at fortifying a single spot. But if he's defending Wintergrasp, then he won't have to move around a lot. Vehicles aren't really an option for a boxer, so he has no real reason to move anywhere further than the 2 mid-workshops. There's 25 other people in his team that can go and stroll through the outer turrets.
In theory, a little focused AoE strike should take care of stacked people. But then again, the multiboxer can just cast 2 x 15 lightning chains, dealing huge damage to any vehicle and everyone else around too. (Might as well murder everyone's fps with 60 totems too lol)
This is the big key here. We can theorize a lot about how a bunch of people in a teamspeak room can coordinate with each other, in trying to exploit the multiboxers' weaknesses - as if it was Arena. But then you need to think about; How many people actually queue up for BG and WG to play "competitively"?
I'm willing to bet that at least 90% of the participants in WG, just queue up for a casual match, obviously with the intent to win, but not willing to go as far as to organizing a team. It's a casual environment.
It's not the rare group of premades in which every individual has put time and effort into that infuriates people. It's the fact that one person has access to such a ridiculous amount of power, easily able to pubstomp almost anyone.
And before the argument "You could find 14 teammates and be a lot stronger/more useful than the multiboxer" is brought up:
It's easy to convince one person to invest his time into something, but good luck trying to convince 15 real people.
Premades>Multiboxer>Solo
Of course if you obliviously abandon objectives and such, no amount of power will help you out there. But like I said, in cases like deffing WG, there's little you can do wrong when you have the ability to oneshot 3 people per second.
That is, unless the boxer has half of your team locked down at the graveyard (again; casual, not competitive environment. people won't think of walking the long way until their 3rd death). Or has the mid-workshops under control while his teammates mop up the scattered few, who desperately try to defend their southern towers.
That ending was so glorious lol. But it also showcases what frustrates a lot of "victims" of multiboxers. You stand absolutely no chance against them alone or in few numbers.
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Not everyone has the power to call their entire guild for assistance lol.
Yes, I admit, those are more nuisances than genuine issues. It's just - it bothers me so much that it's just one guy. It's a huge difference if some guy idly farms an entrance by nuking anyone who enters the PvP zone with his 20 clients, or if it's 20 people that (for some reason) use their time on doing exactly that.
I don't like the thought of "You could do it too - it's allowed after all" either. Last thing I want to do is having to rely on said "tactic".
There's no "manpower" dilemma in world, where both sides have the equal amount of players. You can have as many clients as your rig can handle.
You see, in case of the screenshot: I would have laughed pretty hard, if it had been 15 individual people that had the genius idea to spawnkill everyone with AoEs at start. But something feels wrong about one person taking out 40 people.
The amount of effort needed to overcome a multiboxer is BS if you consider the effort he needs to put in. (excuse me if I dont have 1k$ to spare for gear. but i dont want to complain about donators - they finance the server after all.)
Huff. Again, I appreciate and respect your input.
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Does this look like Arena to you, where I would 1v1 people??? I stick with well geared people and help them nuke people freely. You can spam /lol all you want while while some more-than-well-equipped Warrior destroys you before you get out of that stunlock
Oh excuse me mister mentor. I did not expect to be instagibbed upon entering WG. I didn't switch to Sub specs before taking that screenshot.
"Your gear useless in PvP, but hey, f*ck you if you try to get PvP gear with PvPing."
I fail to see your argument. Or maybe you fail to deliver it, I don't know. What makes you think the rest of Horde's team was not as "under-equipped"? Like why are you even talking about that stuff here? What's your point?
This is the only thing that comes somewhat close to an argument. But then again, you just point out the obvious.
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I don't care about the loss itself. Plainly put, I find it majorly BS that one guy is allowed so much power in comparison to others. That's the entire point though. Idc about his gear. No gear in the world will save you from 15 Chain lightnings + totems.(Again, don't even think about saying "everyone can multibox too.).
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Thanks botz for that post.
Honestly I would laugh so hard, or at least be very amazed if I would see a full "raid group" of 25 people immitating multiboxing.
That's an argument I was trying to word out but couldn't. Thank you.Edited: August 17, 2016
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That last one was just a wall of text and I'm just gonna say, I didn't bother reading it. I can understand (a)wanting to defend your point, and (b) seek understanding about large amount of boxers, I feel like you are missing a huge (and very subtle) point.
That boxer has to take the time, to gear, set up and learn to play (most of the time by getting defeated many times), I spent 6 months on my 14 man priest team. (at first i was getting wiped by 3 players) Donating skips this, however unless you have money to burn, this isn't an option. not to mention harassed to no end all while doing it.
i.e. the opposite faction takes the time to log over just to whisper you till you get fed up and ignore them, or members of your own faction constantly telling you how to play, what to do all while never boxing themselves.
I can understand your frustration if you got beat or killed, or in some cases ganked, however that bottom line is this, the staff isn't likely to change their stance on boxing, so what I recommend is either (a) start boxing so you can fully understand what it entails, or (b) make a boxing friend and ask them all the questions when he isn't busy.Edited: August 17, 2016 Reason: Grammar corrections
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So what you are saying here is that its very hard to coordinate other 14 people to actually kill multiboxer?
To begin with, you don't need 15 people to kill 15man boxer. 10 mixed classes is more than enough.
Think better about this. to gear a solo character takes like what 1month(2 with very slow pace)? to the level of a non-donor boxer.( relentless with few wf parts wich don't need 2v2 rating). Now, it took me around 8 months(give or take a month) to level and gear my chars to 5.7k gs. so lets say u have 6 months advantage, don't you think within half a year you would get 14 other people to prepare?
Its not that hard to get people to understand their part in game in certain situacions. whole PvE is based on it, many has lod don't they?
We are not to be farmed by randoms, we are not to be farmed by braindead. we are the real challenge for real pvpers.
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OP, this is reportable, you should pm a gm with this screenshot and they should get banned for 2-5 days.Spoiler:Show
Edit: to the 2 mb dickheads doing this, I thought you would stop after getting banned once, I guess I'll have to send the warmane police on your asses again. Camping the spawn in WG with AOE before the game starts is pathetic from your side and just comes to show 1 more time that you are just some fat lonely fedora wearing basement dwellers.Edited: August 18, 2016
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You can try report this, but nothing will come out of it. since there is no rule that forbids you to kill opposing faction member in pvp zone? it doesint become non-pvp zone after battle is finished.
Do you even know why one of them got banned in the 1st place?
And please do restrain yourself from posting off-topic replyes. Go cry somewhere else please.
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Hello Dralanne1,
Firstly how is my reply an offtopic post, I am addressing the issue the OP is trying start a discutuion about by directly quoting him, if this is considered off-topic **** me.
Secondly I better know why one of them got banned since I reported them right ?
If you examine the screenshot with your eyes, you should notice on the top middle of the screen a text reading "time remaning 29:48" That means the battle has started 12 seconds ago. When you are queued for WG and you get the call you have 20 seconds to respond if you don't you get removed from the queue. So I know it might be hard but lets add 2+2: MB camp the point were all the ally gets teleported before the battle starts, they get teleported there and die in loading screen from the aoe, mb sits there until the 20s are about to run out and accept the queue after having farmed some hks. This is plain-*** exploiting.
I am mostly salty about that after having being banned once for this they are doing it agian, I guess people are just as ignorant as your responce to my previous comment.
And please do restrain yourself from ignorant ****posting, go defend the children in Africa, they could use a strong activist like yourself.
