WotLK BiS weapons for fury non-donor?

[Panofsky]

funfact: a true non-smourne bislist would use double gloren and northern lights

Lol. So now you admit that the off-hand weapon damage and stats are relevent. You will still be expertise overcapped playing the human race with the double Glorenzelg, that's why the Glorenzelg + Cryptmaker combo is usually more common.

[Selaya]

Did I ever claim they`re not?

[Panofsky]

Did I ever claim they`re not?

If not, why did you consider warmace of menethil the better off hand weapon in the first place? I haven't red any post written by you regarding the double glorenzelg before few minutes ago. You were still giving wrong informations tho guy who has opened this thread.

[Selaya]

Because Warmace gives you Crit, which is more useful than Overhit. And that, makes up the loss of weapon DPS.

[Mercy]

Because Warmace gives you Crit, which is more useful than Overhit. And that, makes up the loss of weapon DPS.

I would have to disagree. Not only do I feel the mention of the loss of both strength and armor pen are being ignored, but I'm fairly certain that the guy that posted this thread is looking for a long-term solution - not a short-term one.

This discussion has become more about who is right than being helpful to the thread creator.

[Panofsky]

Because Warmace gives you Crit, which is more useful than Overhit. And that, makes up the loss of weapon DPS.

Which overhit are you talking about? There's absolutly no reason to need any of the items you have already listed before. There is no overhit. Even if you can't get the Frostbrood ring or the Coldwraith belt there are other options which do not include hit rating like http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50707 or http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50693.

[Selaya]

Cryptmaker is a 4 or so STR diff from Warmace, you`re just looking at a 12 ArP loss, basically (and the weapon DPS), in exchange for 103 Crit.
You can have a just as good (and probably better) longterm solution with a Warmace, in fact, you would proabably want to use an Apocs anyways because its just that good. Again, just waiting for your nonhit-item of your dreams to drop doesn`t work when gearing up. You`re just gimping yourself by that point.

[Panofsky]

The crit you are adding by equipping the Warmace will be lost because you will need more plate strength + hit items instead of the leather agility + arp + attack power + crit items to fill the lack of hit rating. The calculation has been made so many times. Sadly chardev.org is not running anymore or I could prove that to you. Stop being obsessed by overhit. And about the drop I dream of... I really would not like to join a guild which let me roll for an item which is more useful to other classes. Pugs may be ruled by anarchy but I still find quite unfair to steal an item just because it would increase my gearscore.

[Selaya]

If you can upgrade a 232 item to a suboptimal 264 one, it`s still quite huge an upgrade. Not to mention that half, if not more of those hit items aren`t used in /any/ real bislist, making it a fair game. Really, you should just try to scavenge up whatever you can find where you aren`t stealing someone elses 232>264 upgrade, and then try to make up the best set-of-gear from all your options after each and every raid.

Again, this is just a gearing-up and stopgap discussion. A true non SMourne bis will use double Gloren.

[Panofsky]

Of course when you are starting to gear up you can equip all that you want if it's not needed by any other player. When you are still going trough these first steps you don't even watch at the secondary stats, mostly because it will be hard to reach the expertise - crit - arp cap. Progressing trough the heroic mode is another thing, which do not need to equip that Warmace at all! And I really don't expect a fresh toon to reach the lk 10 hc while he is still gearing up. Seriously, there isn't a step in the gearing progression of a fury warrior where that weapon is needed. There are far better options which are even easier to obtain.

[SilverFlash]

Alright, thank you guys for your responses! I guess my last question would be what should i drop from my talent tree to get Precision? I've got 4 points on Unbridled Wrath and 5 on Enrage, the rest is just the usual. 18/53/0

Drop Booming Voice,Commanding Presence and Enrage,and get 5/5 Unbridled Wrath and either 2/2 Improved Execute/Improved Berserker Rage/Furious Attacks,or 3/5 UW and 2/2 IE and IBR/FA.Reasons:Enrage sounds okay-ish,but does not stack with Death Wish,on the contrary,when it procs it removes DW.Booming Voice isn't needed,just glyph both of your shouts,that should be enough.Commanding Presence was useful for Ulduar hardmodes(CS),but since then it lost its usefullness in premade raids,its talented usually on one fury warrior on 25h for bigger healthpool(don't worry about BS value,most 10m raids and all 25m will have a retribution paladin).Improved Execute should be paired with the execute glyph.Additionally,you can consider putting a point in Heroic Fury,helps on fights with movement.It really comes down on flavours as what would you prefer,but i'd go with the mentioned options.

[Panofsky]

Drop Booming Voice,Commanding Presence and Enrage,and get 5/5 Unbridled Wrath and either 2/2 Improved Execute/Improved Berserker Rage/Furious Attacks,or 3/5 UW and 2/2 IE and IBR/FA.Reasons:Enrage sounds okay-ish,but does not stack with Death Wish,on the contrary,when it procs it removes DW.Booming Voice isn't needed,just glyph both of your shouts,that should be enough.Commanding Presence was useful for Ulduar hardmodes(CS),but since then it lost its usefullness in premade raids,its talented usually on one fury warrior on 25h for bigger healthpool(don't worry about BS value,most 10m raids and all 25m will have a retribution paladin).Improved Execute should be paired with the execute glyph.Additionally,you can consider putting a point in Heroic Fury,helps on fights with movement.It really comes down on flavours as what would you prefer,but i'd go with the mentioned options.

Are you kidding me? Unbridled Wrath is one of the most useless talent in the fury tree. It only gives you the chance to get ONE additional rage point trough your damaging abilities. Furious Attacks is a pvp talent (just tell me why you should reduce the healing recieved in pve, I can't even...). Improved Berserker Rage may be useful when you start gearing but with some decent gear from TOC 25 you will already have enough rage to spend just by following your basic rotation. Improved Execute is a crappy talent because you will use Execute maybe few times when the boss health is lower then 25% but only to fill your rotation. Glyph of Execution is not worthy. The best glyphs for a fury warrior are Glyph of Whirlwind, Heroic Strike and Rending. Stop spreading false informations, please.

[Gnimo]

How to get started as fury warrior.

U have to farm gold. U just have to do it if u want to start from 0gs and no mains. Get profesions such as Mining and Blacksmithing, that will help u with both gold and some starter gear.
Farm gold for BoEs such as: [Ring of Rotting Sinew] (3000g), [Wodin's Lucky Necklace] (5000g), also maybe [Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets] since its cheap (300g) if u dont have anything better. This with enchants such as: Precision (+20 hit on gloves) and Icewalker (12hit 12crit on feet) will get u hit capped with Ashen (reputation, +59hit) ring which is 5% from gear (165hit rating) + 3% from talents.
U can get nice "rare" and maybe some "epic" items from Blacksmithing, and all kind of reputations arround northrend. After that u can farm PoS, FoS, and RDFs, ToC, and maybe lucky VoA.

If u are good at farming gold get [Shadow's Edge], u wont get any better weapon unless u kill LK 10m hc.

If u have any coins / points get [Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand], if u have more get [Sharpened Twilight Scale] if u have more and u are lazy to farm all those primos get [Shadow's Edge] / [Warmace of Menethil] HC.

Talents: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#LG0G0fhZGxcoq0uoeRVkAo

U have 1 talent point to spend on Commanding Presence, or Anger Menagement, or Improved Intercept, or Improved Execute.

Glyphs: Glyph of Heroic Strike, Whirlwind, Cleave.

Rotation:
This is something u have to find for urself. I can show u the basics of it but in the end u need to practice in order to perfect ur own rotation. But it should look something like this for start.
BT > WW > 1sec > BT > 1 gcd > 1sec > BT > WW > 1sec > BT > 1 gcd > 1sec, repeat
U should use your instant Slam procs in those 1sec and 1 gcd parts in ur rotation.
U can pop SunderArmor in that 1sec and 1gcd untill u reach 5 stacks, after that just reaply it when u get to the 1 gcd part of rotation. U can also pop Demoralizing Shout or Piercing Howl when u have th 1 gcd part. Or simply refresh buffs (aka Battle or Commanding shout).
Heroic Strike, it has no gcd (globalcooldown) but u wont get any rage from ur white hit that is used for HS, u will only lose rage. Use it carefully, noone can teach u this, u need to work on this one urself, but i can only advise u this. Use it IF u are above 50% rage before the BT > WW part, if u have less, dont risc it cos u will ragestarve if u miss, or wont have rage for both BT > WW if u hit glancing attack (u never want to ragestarve, aka have no rage for ur primal rotation, its better to hit a white melee attack and skip using 1-3HSs to keep the rotation healty). Same goes for Cleave, but when u aoe u should prio WW and Cleave, so sometimes just skip doin BT and wait for more rage.

END GAME BIS list: http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary

If u cant afford Shadowmourne, go for [Warmace of Menethil] (10m hc LK, aka Bane run).


Now to disclaim some of the previous comments...

Talents.
Unbridled Wrath is 1 rage point per normal swing (aka white swing dmg, aka offhand dmg if u are casting heroic strike) 1 rage point as in 1/100. Waste of 5 points, Anger Menagement is 100% 1 rage per 3 sec, its a lot better since its 1 talent point only. Enrage, fixed, useless, it has to be a direct dmg on u, such as boss melee hit (which u dont want to happen ever) for it to proc. Heroic Fury is helpfull when u have to swap from Boss to adds and from adds to Boss again in matter of 10sec. Piercing Howl is good for valks on LK, kiteing adds in dungeons and all kind of stuff...

Glyphs.
There are no other glyphs good for Fury warrior, part from those 3 i told u to get. If anyone says Glyph of Cleave is BAD they never reached LK 25m HC and never had a chance to deal with Valks. But since this is a starter guide, GOCleave is also good for killing the trash faster. And since u have almost no gear going Glyph of Rend and switching from 1 presence to another for the sake of such niserable dmg increase will lose u more dps overall.

Weapons.
weapon number 1:Cryptmaker VS weapon number2: Warmace

First of all, more GS or higher item level doesnt mean item is better, u wathc the overall stat gain. If one item gives u useless stats, for the minor upgrade in something as irelevant as 14dps, than f that item.
Cryptmaker gives u exactly: 4 more strength, 12 armor penetration for the cost of 103crit. I wont count in useless 99hit and extra 13.7dps. Why useless? Here we go.

Reason why getting more hit after u reach the CAP is useless: pure RNG, same as going 0-21 expertise, since 22 is the soft cap on warmane. If RNG is on ur side u wont get dodged with 0 expertise, if RNG is not on ur side u can get dodged 3 times in a row with 21 expertise. Same goes with hit, even when it comes to white swings. U want more CRIT so u get SOFT CRIT CAP, which makes all of ur sucesfull offhand hits to be eather CRIT or GLANCING. In ICC (outside of icc u have to manage ur rage carefully even on BIS items) cos of the 30% dmg increase buff u will get 100/100 rage with offhand crit, no matter if the offhand weapon is 271 or 277 itlvl. If u get glanced ul have to be more carefull with ur Heroic Strike spam but u should be fine aslong 2 of them are not glancing and 3rd miss. This is the reason why Crit > haste > random stats > more hit.
How to calculate how much crit u need? (google - wowwiki). U will have arround (more or less) 24% of ur melee white attacks glanced, arround 16% u will miss, so that leaves 60% left for ur white swings. If u have 0% crit chance (count in buffs aswell) u wont have a normal hit on your target (64.8% for BOSS targets since they have -4.8% crit chance, lets call it a debuff on u, cos of higher lvl and higher defence skill).

I think that will do, and i proly wont bother posting anything new here, unless i forgot something or some more false information that triger me apears.

I would suggest one more thing, before u start a class, open ur spellbook, read those spells 1 by 1, test them out on dummy, out in the world, in rdfs, see how they interact with each other, google some old wow stuff on WoWWiki like defence raiting, hit, crit, learn about the game and practice, practice makes perfection. I wouldnt suggest coming on forums for advices especialy if u are about to use Coins on items, ask **** ton of warriors in game, that u see are doing nice dps, or make ur own research based on old wow videos and google.
Didnt mean to offend anyone, no hard feelings... Best of luck to all. Have fun.

[Panofsky]

A proper use of the Rend ability will increase your dps by 1k, not so much but still useful, especially when you are still gearing up and you haven't got the t10 bonus, so you have got even more room for stance dancing when Bloodsurge doesn't proc. As a warrior fury you definetly don't need the extra hit given by Glyph of Cleaving. No one cares about the dps done on trash mobs and as a fury warrior you already have a good aoe dps thanks to Whirlwind. Valks? On 25 hc it's even easier to get them down since you don't need to kill them but only to reach half of their hp.

You are assuming that you can replace Shadowmourne with Warmace of Menethil just because you want to replace a weapon with arp + crit as secondary stats with another weapon with the same stats but inferior. Which is wrong, it's not a matter of filling your rage bar, it's about the stats and the base damage. Your off hand weapon affect a part of your Whirlwind damage, which is basically the ability which deals more damage per hit in our rotation. That's why you should aim for Glorenzelg + Cryptmaker or the double Glorenzelg (if you are not human) combo.

[magaginho]

Warmace is just as good as Cryptmaker, if not better. You don`t ever need the hit on it, you would have to try real hard and pass on a third of all drops to have no Hit at all on anything but that your AV ring.
The good news is that overhit isn`t all wasted for a Fury warrior, but it`s still a quite garbage stat past the 5% cap.

It won't ever be as good as Cryptmaker because of the ArP value difference and specially because of the weapon damage. Denying that makes me wonder some of your posts in other threads. Defending slight differences about other classes and then denying a slight difference for this specific case seems a little bit confusing to me.

Cryptmaker is a 4 or so STR diff from Warmace, you`re just looking at a 12 ArP loss, basically (and the weapon DPS), in exchange for 103 Crit.
You can have a just as good (and probably better) longterm solution with a Warmace

You're overlooking the damage output from both weapons and that alone, in long rage, will reflect with the best optimization possible for your Warrior. All of this because you have a cringy situation against hit rating values. My warrior is using double Glorenz at the moment since he's an orc, however, as human I would never consider using other weapons besides Cryptmaker and Glorenz if I had no access to Shadowmourne.