Vanish/Shadowmeld Blind + Hit rating

[ludovicostone]

So I'm here again, kinda frustrated, was in arena vs a rogue, already did SWD, Trinket and no other things to avoid enemy's blind except a Shadowmeld. So i Shadowmeld blind and guess what? I got blinded on it. It's not the wrong shadowmeld delay when they re-target you from shadowmeld and cast blind because you did it too early, I shadowmeld'd the exact moment he blinded me. I lost the arena obviously.
Then I did few tries in duel rogue vs rogue and 5/5 i couldnt' vanish blind, getting blinded on vanish every single time. I can say many other things that I can't be able to do anymore but these are the most frustrating, u know after a blind usually comes a sap, and eating a 20 sec CC is not good.

Usually when u vanish/shadowmeld something, u have two options:

Your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you don't get the CC, and you get out of stealth
Your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you don't get the CC, and you don't get out of stealth.

But in years of wow I never saw something like this: your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you get the CC, and you are out of stealth.

Is there something I'm missing? Because this happens ONLY on blackrock realm.

Also: as Priest I'm missing half of spells, with 5% hit rating, vs mages (silence, psychic horror), so is hit rating kidna bugged? I don't know what to think, everything seems random/luck on this server...There is no skill :|

Post your experience or opinion here, thanks!

[shamy1]

So I'm here again, kinda frustrated, was in arena vs a rogue, already did SWD, Trinket and no other things to avoid enemy's blind except a Shadowmeld. So i Shadowmeld blind and guess what? I got blinded on it. It's not the wrong shadowmeld delay when they re-target you from shadowmeld and cast blind because you did it too early, I shadowmeld'd the exact moment he blinded me. I lost the arena obviously.
Then I did few tries in duel rogue vs rogue and 5/5 i couldnt' vanish blind, getting blinded on vanish every single time. I can say many other things that I can't be able to do anymore but these are the most frustrating, u know after a blind usually comes a sap, and eating a 20 sec CC is not good.

Usually when u vanish/shadowmeld something, u have two options:

Your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you don't get the CC, and you get out of stealth
Your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you don't get the CC, and you don't get out of stealth.

But in years of wow I never saw something like this: your vanish/meld goes on cooldown, you get the CC, and you are out of stealth.

Is there something I'm missing? Because this happens ONLY on blackrock realm.

Also: as Priest I'm missing half of spells, with 5% hit rating, vs mages (silence, psychic horror), so is hit rating kidna bugged? I don't know what to think, everything seems random/luck on this server...There is no skill :|

Post your experience or opinion here, thanks!

You can vanish a blind and you can blind a vanish. It works both ways, i don't know whats the deal about it, guess its latency related

[Bodom]

Also: as Priest I'm missing half of spells, with 5% hit rating, vs mages (silence, psychic horror), so is hit rating kidna bugged? I don't know what to think, everything seems random/luck on this server...There is no skill :|

Mages with Shadow Protection have around 240 shadow resistance. Even without they have around 120 resistances with mage armor to all spell schools.

Seems to me you aren't really aware of spell hit mechanics. Minimum spell hit cap is 4%, not 5%.

For example did you duel belf mages? they have extra +2% miss chance on spells as well.

[theforgotten1]

https://www.twitch.tv/seasxxnsun/v/5726164

https://www.twitch.tv/seasxxnsun/v/56113117

This is how you meld Blind

[ludovicostone]

I didn't ask "how do I meld blind??? plz??". What I said is in every server, retail or private I played/I am playing, I am able to vanish/meld blinds (and others ccs).
But on blackrock, only on blackrock, i get out of stealth/meld everytime with CC on me.

[svendl]

I've looked into the spell delay & vanish mechanics on Blackrock, how it works now and how it worked in the past.

Here's a video of me testing it a bit: https://youtu.be/-aDFGMnyfqA?t=6m42s
Explanation:
Melee CC abilities(such as KS, CS, Gouge etc) have a 100ms delay until they are applied to the target(also a 100ms delay on the cast animation & combat log notification from the receivers perspective), while this delay for CC spells(such as poly, fear, shadowfury, psychic scream etc) is 150ms instead.

This is what makes CCing each other possible(if 2 players cast a spell/ability within 100/150ms of each other.)


Now to how vanish works:
(I haven't tested shadowmeld specifically but I'm ASSUMING it has the same mechanic)

-If a Rogue uses vanish, enemies will still be able to see him for 250ms.(we can call this "fade time" for vanish.)
-Any spell/ability that is CASTED on the rogue after he has used vanish but during these 250ms of visibility, will make the rogues vanish break.
-Any spell that was casted on the rogue right before he used vanish, but still has not been applied yet because of the 100/150ms spell delay, will be completely evaded and it will not break stealth.
-if someone is casting a spell on a rogue and the rogue uses vanish during the cast time, then the spell cast will not stop until after these 250ms of vanish fade time(I'm guessing this is to prevent people from spamming an instant spell as they are casting a spell on a rogue to always break his vanish).
-if someone is casting a spell on a rogue that has less than 0,25s(250ms) left on it's cast time, and the rogue uses vanish before the cast is finished, then the spell cast will continue casting and when the cast timer is finished it will say "invalid target" and not go off.



In your scenario, Blind has 100ms delay since it's a melee ability, which means that for you to evade blind with shadowmeld you need to use shadowmeld within 100ms after the rogue casts blind on you. But you can never know when the rogue uses blind since both the combat log message, cast animation and effect is delayed by 100ms.
All you can do is predict it.

What happened to you though is that you used shadowmeld, and during your fade time(250ms of visibility) the rogue used Blind on you, thus breaking your shadowmeld and you becoming blinded.



Note that these numbers aren't taken from retail or anything, it's simply AT's custom way of doing this to mimic the delay that was in wotlk retail as best as possible, since all the functionalities of spell batches/delay on wotlk retail aren't known, which means that there is no way to know how it "really" should work.

In the past on AT(they changed it to the current system sometime in 2014) every single ability & spell had a 150ms delay until they were applied on the target, while nowadays it's only CCs.


Hopefully this clears things up.

[Peonstompergodx]

I've looked into the spell delay & vanish mechanics on Blackrock, how it works now and how it worked in the past.

IIRC they only ever had it on CC, and it's 100ms(tested howl&fury too) delay on all CC except silences.

local function HandleSpellCastSucceeded()
   if arg2 ==  "SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg4, arg10)
   elseif arg2 == "SPELL_AURA_APPLIED" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg7, arg10)
   end
end


if not f then
   local f=CreateFrame("Frame","f")
end
f:UnregisterAllEvents()
f:RegisterEvent("COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED")
f:SetScript("OnEvent", function() HandleSpellCastSucceeded() end)

[svendl]

IIRC they only ever had it on CC, and it's 100ms(tested howl&fury too) delay on all CC except silences.

local function HandleSpellCastSucceeded()
   if arg2 ==  "SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg4, arg10)
   elseif arg2 == "SPELL_AURA_APPLIED" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg7, arg10)
   end
end


if not f then
   local f=CreateFrame("Frame","f")
end
f:UnregisterAllEvents()
f:RegisterEvent("COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED")
f:SetScript("OnEvent", function() HandleSpellCastSucceeded() end)

No, currently the delay on shadowfury, fear, poly etc is 150ms, while the delay on blind, cs, ks, gouge etc is 100ms.
This can easily be seen in any 60+ fps video recording by going frame by frame. It's an interesting addon you got there but on many spells SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS isn't even displayed(probably to combat scripters), though there is no denying the fact that there's a difference in the delay between melee abilities & spells when going frame by frame. It's very clear.

Before on AT they did indeed have 150ms delay on all spells that you casted on enemies, except for silences & interrupts.
Can be seen in this video from 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taaIG-YBxMg, most notable on cone of cold and fire blast, but can also easily be seen with frost bolts and ice lance. playback at 0.25 speed or dl video and go frame by frame.

[Peonstompergodx]

Yeah I tested on training dummies, which meant always 100ms.
I forgot back in 2014 when they delayed spell_cast_success to happen at the same time as spell_aura_applied, which was in fact to prevent scripters (but you could still [harm]). There might still be a delay on spell_cast_success(the combat log event), idk why they keep changing **** like this, 150ms on all spells/abilities(casted on other players) would be fine imo.
And I keep getting mixed results now with blind and sap in arena, 100-200ms, might have been because of server instability though.

also it's the event UNIT_SPELLCAST_SUCCEEDED for cast-time spells, it's not hidden to prevent scripts.

local function HandleSpellCastSucceeded()
   if event == "UNIT_SPELLCAST_SUCCEEDED" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2)
   elseif arg2 ==  "SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg4, arg10)
   elseif arg2 == "SPELL_AURA_APPLIED" then
      print(GetTime(), arg2, arg7, arg10)
   end
end


if not f then
   local f=CreateFrame("Frame","f")
end
f:UnregisterAllEvents()
f:RegisterEvent("COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED")
f:RegisterEvent("UNIT_SPELLCAST_SUCCEEDED")
f:SetScript("OnEvent", function() HandleSpellCastSucceeded() end)

[ludovicostone]

Let me understand, in simple words..to avoid scripts they added a delay on spells and now if you want to vanish/meld something you need to be accurate 100%?

[Peonstompergodx]

Let me understand, in simple words..to avoid scripts they added a delay on spells and now if you want to vanish/meld something you need to be accurate 100%?

No, if you want to know how vanish works in principle, read svendl's post

[ludovicostone]

No, if you want to know how vanish works in principle, read svendl's post

I read it, and thats why i said that. I assume I got Blinded on meld because i shadowmelded too early and the rogue had 250 ms to blind me before me going invisibile to him.
So quoting what he said

"...But you can never know when the rogue uses blind since both the combat log message, cast animation and effect is delayed by 100ms.
All you can do is predict it."

I end up saying u need to press the shadowmeld button the exact moment when the rogue press the blind (or maximum 100 ms after)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Peonstompergodx]

I read it, and thats why i said that. I assume I got Blinded on meld because i shadowmelded too early and the rogue had 250 ms to blind me before me going invisibile to him.
So quoting what he said

"...But you can never know when the rogue uses blind since both the combat log message, cast animation and effect is delayed by 100ms.
All you can do is predict it."

I end up saying u need to press the shadowmeld button the exact moment when the rogue press the blind (or maximum 100 ms after)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct, I just didn't realize the caster and the target recieves the combat log events at different times.

[ludovicostone]

Tested:

Let's say [delay] is 100ms.

If you press Vanish SAME TIME enemy presses Blind, you Vanish it 100%, and you don't get out of stealth, same thing happens if enemy Blindes you and you wait [delay] to Vanish. You Vanish it.
Instead, if you press Vanish but [delay] before Blind, you get Blinded on it, since in that [delay] its like you are not in stealth, you are "visible" to enemy. (my case of shadowmeld)

And obviously if you press Vanish after [delay]+X ms of Blind, you can't Vanish (Blind is already on you). [Delay] is the limit.

Glad I know how this work.

So in few words:

1) You vanish and you get blinded = you vanished 100ms earlier
2) You vanish and you dont get blinded = you vanished at perfect time or until the delay limit after the blind cast (0 to 100ms)
3) You can't vanish because you are alread blinded = you tried to vanished, but late by 100+ ms

Also, I checked some retail clips of my rogue back in s8, and I noticed I got blinded on Vanish sometimes, so I think it's kinda scripted okay. When you Vanish/Meld you have that small time (delay) when u are still vulnerable to CCs. And that means you vanished too early by an hundred of ms.

Back to the main question of the topic:
I'm assuming then on old AT things were kinda "broken?" since I didnt' need to be SO accurate 100%. I remember vanishing things 24/7 almost, now its like..30-40%


P.S.: I didn't check deeply the combat log thing, I don't know if it's delayed I couldn't fraps two WoW together and compare them at slow-mo to see if the spell actually comes late in the receiver's combat log. With my naked eye it seemed that the Blind spell was written immediately after cast but maybe my eye can't see a 100ms difference :D