WotLK PvE Spec

[Dagetas35]

So I read that TTW spec are top one at near bis gear, but what about 5.6-5.8 gs range with 2pT10, is it still best spec or FFB can do more?

[Jakkre]

Go arcane on low gear and TTW once u have a decent amount of crit.
No need to go FFB at all because TTW always outperforms it.

[Princessochka]

Go arcane on low gear and TTW once u have a decent amount of crit.
No need to go FFB at all because TTW always outperforms it.

You are wrong, ttw is mainly a 25raid build and it asks a good raid setup; no dk (or at least ffb mage) = no damage. After u respec in ttw from ffb - u will get 2-4k dps more of your maximum dps, but u will also do less damage then ffb on ~30% encounters. FFB is a modest build, while TTW is very demanding in every possible aspect.

[Thydus]

You are wrong, ttw is mainly a 25raid build and it asks a good raid setup; no dk (or at least ffb mage) = no damage. After u respec in ttw from ffb - u will get 2-4k dps more of your maximum dps, but u will also do less damage then ffb on ~30% encounters. FFB is a modest build, while TTW is very demanding in every possible aspect.

Arcane at low haste, ffb at like 800-1k haste, and ttw when u get more haste.

[DarkenedHue]

Arcane at low haste, ffb at like 800-1k haste, and ttw when u get more haste.

Oh Christ, get out of here with that horse****.

Go arcane on low gear and TTW once u have a decent amount of crit.
No need to go FFB at all because TTW always outperforms it.

This. FFB is mostly obsolete in 3.3.5.

You are wrong, ttw is mainly a 25raid build and it asks a good raid setup; no dk (or at least ffb mage) = no damage. After u respec in ttw from ffb - u will get 2-4k dps more of your maximum dps, but u will also do less damage then ffb on ~30% encounters. FFB is a modest build, while TTW is very demanding in every possible aspect.

If you're playing in a raid where neither the tank nor anyone else is always debuffing the boss with a -20% attack speed slow you have far greater problems than DPS.

[Princessochka]

This. FFB is mostly obsolete in 3.3.5.
If you're playing in a raid where neither the tank nor anyone else is always debuffing the boss with a -20% attack speed slow you have far greater problems than DPS.

No need to go FFB at all because TTW always outperforms it.

is it still best spec or FFB can do more?

Question was - can FFB outdps TTW? Does FFB have any use? Jakkre says no, and i say - yes it can sometimes and it does.
FFB build is fine everywhere, while TTW is only for raids.

First of all if u r not a big raiding guild player - raid setups problems will be a common thing with pugs. TTW builds agrro much faster, so if u have bad tanks/hunters/rogues - u will have to stop dps to manage your agrro/use invis, so ffb can outdps u there. There are also encounters where FFB shows itself better - Lady Deathwisper (adds), Fester/Rotface (do bosses even have elemental resistance? anyways i was always outpdsing ttw as ffb on these 2). Also there are encounters where ffbs slow and possibility to freeze adds come in handy - new core DBS, Valithria. In world exploring (achies, bc dungeons, elite mobs etc) FFB is better with no doubts. In rdfs FFB will show itself better as well. If you do some bgs with your pve gear FFB is better too. But i won't argue that TTW will dps more in most 25m raids, it is just a question of convenience of ffb spec from a ttw player perspective.

About question itself - i'll say that fire mages (either ffb and ttw) come in their full power only if 2 conditions are met. You must have 4t10 and you must have 40%+ fire crit. If you miss some hit (11% for ffb and 14% for ttw), or these 2 things - better stay arcane.

[Sky]

Since it's a minor discussion topic, and a very saturated one too, I didn't want to start a new topic just for it.

Regarding TTW fire magi, is crit gemming (23sp on reds/ 20 crit on yellows / 10crit+10spirit on blues) superior to spell-power gemming in the server?
Is gemming haste over crit optimal (RAWR lists it as the superior secondary stat past 40% self-buffed crit)?

It would be nice if you could also provide with milestones for stats when arguing for or against it.

[Princessochka]

Since it's a minor discussion topic, and a very saturated one too, I didn't want to start a new topic just for it.

Regarding TTW fire magi, is crit gemming (23sp on reds/ 20 crit on yellows / 10crit+10spirit on blues) superior to spell-power gemming in the server?
Is gemming haste over crit optimal (RAWR lists it as the superior secondary stat past 40% self-buffed crit)?

It would be nice if you could also provide with milestones for stats when arguing for or against it.

Fire mages will stack crit if they have <30% crit (it's better to have decent rng than nothing).
Second thing (if you are already decently geared) - SP gemming or CRIT gemming - it is mostly a question of choice. Better RNG or harder hitting spells? If SP gemming mage gets good rng - he will outdps crit stacking mage. For myself, in bis gears 50% fire crit unbuffed doesn't seem enought for me actually, so it is a question of preferences - which gameplay style better suits the player?

About haste stacking - you will need about 1800 haste for this, great ms/reactions and no freezes. This way you can outdps other firemages, but only on encounters you don't need to move much.

[Jakkre]

There are also encounters where FFB shows itself better - Lady Deathwisper (adds)

TTW is usually better for killing adds because adds have a small healthpool and they can easily die before a FFb mage completes the long cast time of frostfire bolt. Fireball has a shorter casting time and therefore also triggers hotstreak faster. Therefore TTW has more dmg output on targets with a short lifetime.
Only advantage of FFB is the slow effect that is usefull against some adds in ICC.

In rdfs FFB will show itself better as well.

No, mobs die extremly fast in RDF and like i said, TTW does more dmg on mobs with short lifetime.

If you do some bgs with your pve gear FFB is better too.

Same story. Cast time of FFB is too long. Only noobs will let u cast frostfire bolt without interrupting it.
In PvP u deal dmg by spamming LB and instant pyros, scorch and fire blast to trigger more Hot streaks.

You must have 4t10 and you must have 40%+ fire crit. If you miss some hit (11% for ffb and 14% for ttw), or these 2 things - better stay arcane.

Why would u need the t10 four set bonus to mkae fire mage viable? All u need is a decent amount of crit to trigger enough hot streaks and the hit cap ofc. Infact the t9 two set bonus is also pretty good for fire because it boosts ur crit rating.

Fire mages will stack crit if they have <30% crit (it's better to have decent rng than nothing).
Second thing (if you are already decently geared) - SP gemming or CRIT gemming - it is mostly a question of choice. Better RNG or harder hitting spells? If SP gemming mage gets good rng - he will outdps crit stacking mage. For myself, in bis gears 50% fire crit unbuffed doesn't seem enought for me actually, so it is a question of preferences - which gameplay style better suits the player?

Crit stacking is only optional for FFB mage because of its high critical dmg coefficient.
TTW has only 50% increased critical dmg and therefore its always better to stack SP in higher gear. Crit stacking as TTW is only good on lower gear when u need the additional crit rating to get enough hot streaks.

[Princessochka]

TTW is usually better for killing adds because adds have a small healthpool and they can easily die before a FFb mage completes the long cast time of frostfire bolt. Fireball has a shorter casting time and therefore also triggers hotstreak faster. Therefore TTW has more dmg output on targets with a short lifetime.
Only advantage of FFB is the slow effect that is usefull against some adds in ICC.

No, mobs die extremly fast in RDF and like i said, TTW does more dmg on mobs with short lifetime.

Same story. Cast time of FFB is too long. Only noobs will let u cast frostfire bolt without interrupting it.
In PvP u deal dmg by spamming LB and instant pyros, scorch and fire blast to trigger more Hot streaks.


Why would u need the t10 four set bonus to mkae fire mage viable? All u need is a decent amount of crit to trigger enough hot streaks and the hit cap ofc. Infact the t9 two set bonus is also pretty good for fire because it boosts ur crit rating.

Crit stacking is only optional for FFB mage because of its high critical dmg coefficient.
TTW has only 50% increased critical dmg and therefore its always better to stack SP in higher gear. Crit stacking as TTW is only good on lower gear when u need the additional crit rating to get enough hot streaks.

Man, do you even know why this spec is called TTW? Can u go and read what this talent does? If ttw talent doesn't work - ffb ALWAYS outdps ttw. About that very very long cast time of ffb. Is it 10 minutes? Oh, it is just a 0.27s longer than fireball. Are u serious about writing this? LOL

I wrote that u need 4t10 to get your fire mage in FULL power. Because people praise mages for burst damage. And mages actually become the "mages people know" only after getting 4t10 (+5-10k dps). So yea, without it i'll say - stay arcane; you will do same damage, but will bring a 3%dmg buff in raid (and if u didn't know, 2t9 is always used just to cast molten for additional 15% spirit->crit, after that u can switch back to better gear; every mage keeps it in inventory).

[Jakkre]

Man, do you even know why this spec is called TTW? Can u go and read what this talent does? If ttw talent doesn't work - ffb ALWAYS outdps ttw.

Thunderclap, icy touch, judgements of the just, infected wounds are all counted for TTW.
In other words, EVERY TANK applys the neccesary debuff.
Not sure what kind of raids u join but mine usually have a tank, lol.

I wrote that u need 4t10 to get your fire mage in FULL power. Because people praise mages for burst damage. And mages actually become the "mages people know" only after getting 4t10 (+5-10k dps). So yea, without it i'll say - stay arcane; you will do same damage, but will bring a 3%dmg buff in raid

The t10 four set bonus doesn't favor fire over arcane in any way. The bonus is equally beneficial to arcane and fire mage. Fire already outdps arcane without the 4 set bonus.

2t9 is always used just to cast molten for additional 15% spirit->crit, after that u can switch back to better gear; every mage keeps it in inventory).

This bug does NOT work on the new core, sherlock.

[Princessochka]

Thunderclap, icy touch, judgements of the just, infected wounds are all counted for TTW.
In other words, EVERY TANK applys the neccesary debuff.
Not sure what kind of raids u join but mine usually have a tank, lol.

1) Did you see many wars spamming thunderclap on bosses? I didn't see any. Also wars are single target tanks
2) Prot pals don't use jj, only in lk ot specs
3) Dudus need to spread it 1 by 1 in trash

In other words only dks are actually our friends cuz icy touch and spreading the desease is their common rotation; ah and dudus (if dudu isn't lazy and if u use tot on trash?).

In 80% cases your offtank will be a paladin, so on encounters with trash torment won't be activated. Also there are lots of pala tanks, which means in rdf there is like 50% chance (imo) that u won't have ttw activated. Also don't forget that in pug raids you will meet good players very rarely. So yea, i will say it again - if u don't have the dk = u don't have the ttw activated (cuz in every another situation there are too much "IF"). Like u say "what kind of raids i join if i don't have my talent activated", there are so much sources of slow and it seems like impossible... On practice in pug raids it happens VERY oftenly.

The t10 four set bonus doesn't favor fire over arcane in any way. The bonus is equally beneficial to arcane and fire mage. Fire already outdps arcane without the 4 set bonus.

On 5.2-5.8 with 2t10 arcane can easily have the same dps as fire has. The real dps difference starts exactly when u get 4t10 (5,8+, also at this point stats start to benefit fire mages more) because fire has a much higher burst potential.

This bug does NOT work on the new core, sherlock.

It is a not a bug, it worked on retail as well. AND IT DOES WORK ON NEW CORE.

TTW always outperforms it.

Btw everything i'm writing here is just to refute that, it is wrong. In reality there are too much situations where it doesn't, so i'm saying again - TTW is only for 25m raids.

[maxiikiing]

It is a not a bug, it worked on retail as well. AND IT DOES WORK ON NEW CORE.

It doesnt work anymore.

[Princessochka]

It doesnt work anymore.

Oke, my bad, just checked. But it did work few days ago.

[Jakkre]

2) Prot pals don't use jj, only in lk ot specs

Read the talent description again but this time to look closely: http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=53696
All kind of judgements apply the debuff.

3) Dudus need to spread it 1 by 1 in trash

So what? Who cares about trash mobs that die in few seconds? Only thing that matters is that the debuff is on the boss.

In 80% cases your offtank will be a paladin, so on encounters with trash torment won't be activated.

Nonsense. Judgement is part of palys basic rotation.

Also there are lots of pala tanks, which means in rdf there is like 50% chance (imo) that u won't have ttw activated.

Again nonsense. Palys always apply the debuff.

Also don't forget that in pug raids you will meet good players very rarely. So yea, i will say it again - if u don't have the dk = u don't have the ttw activated

So u actually mean that players in pug raids dont know about the spells judgement, maul, mangle, shred and thunderclap and they never use them?

On 5.2-5.8 with 2t10 arcane can easily have the same dps as fire has.

Again. Only a decent amount of crit is neccesary to beat arcane mage in dps. The setbonus doesnt matter.

It is a not a bug, it worked on retail as well. AND IT DOES WORK ON NEW CORE.

It doesnt work since years.
The fact that this bug also existed on retail doesn't mean that it isnt a bug or do u really think that it was intended by Blizz that mages can do that?

Btw everything i'm writing here is just to refute that, it is wrong. In reality there are too much situations where it doesn't, so i'm saying again - TTW is only for 25m raids.

And yet u bring only far fetched arguments mixed with incorrect claims.