@Verminslayer
Oh yea, i forgot about orc op axe specialization... I like the idea tbh. :D
Altho i would suggest going Toskk's and Frostbrood ring, instead of the ashen ring, since those items give so much armor penetration its insane. And on top of that i tryed full strength build on warrior, paladin and dk, it wont work aswell as builds with couple of agy items in them...
Overall my feeling about ashen ring on frost dk is thats overated. U lose first couple of sec on proc every opener while u apply the diseases on the target and prepare urself for obliterate > fs spam. If it procs when u have to refresh diseases with pestilence and pop blood strike its also a waste of a proc. If it procs and u have to switch targets and run to the orange ooze on PP for example, or u get grabed by a Valk on LK its a waste of proc again. Its a great ring if u need to cap hit, but in this case u are a bit overcapped and with Frostbrood ring u will get **** ton of armor penetration which u can turn into strength and gain **** ton of crit out of it aswell...
Unbuffed stats After gemming (did not use Horn of winter):
175hit
1385 Arp
35.66% Crit (this will be exactly 45.15% raid buffed)
1938 Str
552 Agility
26/26 Expertise
3.81% Haste
4741 Attack Power
This is on a DK without any profestions. No BS+JC or any other...
I used Icewalker instead of Rocketboots, Expertise on Gloves instead of Engi haste, and 22agy enchant on Cloak.
I personaly dont like Engineering on a FDK since u dont get anything special out of it.
Also not a huge fan of Tailoring mainly cos i love that passive stat u get from BS+JC.
With JC+BS my final stats would be: 1399 armor pen, 2011strength, 4887 (7108 atkp raid buffed, no flask, no food) atk power. Rest is the same ofc...
@Petko
Id suggest using some kind of lube so u dont get so buthurt. Also u can make ur own "guide", since u are such an exelent player and teach these kids how to play, myself included. :D
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Wind of Northrend
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Member
Can you explain why Whispered fanged skull instead of Death's choice for unholy? i've tested it and death's choice will always be superior..
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Member
the difference between taking agility off parts is the trade off in damage, the reason i don't like to use agility off pieces is because it isn't worth dropping 2-4k damage off obliterates for an extra 4-5% crit when obliterates already crit around 65-75% already.
I've tried running under 200 hit and for me it is kinda unbearable to have your pestilences miss that often.
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Wind of Northrend
@Wcgludix
Ive tested Deaths Verdict recently and the problem with it was that it had higher cooldown than both WFS and STS. For me, i dont know why, Deaths Verdict proced arround 5sec-10sec-15sec-... and so on after STS and WFS, depending on how long the fight was. Its like it had 5sec longer ICD than WFS and STS. While on the other hand WFS and STS always proc in the same time if u do constant dmg. It might be a flaw in the scripts, or something, i dont know tbh, but i didnt like it cos of that part. Overall ur DPS will be the same, DV (DC) or WFS. Other than that the more crit u have the more wandering plague will proc, which is the reason i go for WFS mainly. Also, when WFS procs u will have more attack power than u will with combined proc from DV (DC) and its passive dmg but on top of that u will have 3.1% more crit...
@Verminslayer
U wont lose any dmg if u go toskk's and frostbrood, especialy not 2-4k on obliterates, u might gain some cos of the extra armor penetration. Altho u can get RS 10m hc ring with armor penetration instead of ashen aswell, if u dont want to go agy items... But if that is how u prefer to play a FDK than be it.
On the topic of more hit = less pestilence miss, thats not the case. Its pure RNG, same goes for expertise. Going from 6.5-16.99% spell hit will be the same as going from 0-25 expertise. U can have fights in which u wont miss a single pestilence, or a single special ability wont get dodged, but sometimes u will have 2-3 of them, miss or,and dodge, in a row. Part from that there is always resist chance on pestilence so going more hit is more useless how i see it since u cant cap that. If its ment to miss its gona miss, no matter how much hit u have (unless u are capped on 17% which wont happen as frost dk).
DK is kinda special. No matter what other ppl suggest, it wont help if u are used to a certain playstile with which u pull nice numbers. U need to play a diferent style for a month or even more to see the diference sometimes.
Have in mind that Im not here to teach u all how to play, again, everyone has their own playstyle, im here to try and suggest thing u might have missed or didnt try and maybe, hopefully, get something out of it... :D
Edit: There is a reason why fury warriors, despite having 20% increased Strength while in Berzerk stance, still go for agility items such as Toskks and Frostbrood ring. Those items have nowhere close an equal when it comes to strength items in those slots.Edited: December 4, 2016
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Member
because fury warriors have superior talents that give them a godly amount of ap and str also titans grip which essentially allows them to cap the essential stats and still have a huge amount of ap, arp and crit combined.
As frost dk's we don't get the luxury of having a glorenzelg + legs to cap expertise just like that. Warriors have a huge range of skills that they can use that don't rely on crit increasing talents, not only that they get more crit out of agility items, it is the reason they go for agility off pieces. They also have a bow slot which essentially means free arp(3 gems worth)
In Icc ive tried agility off pieces, most times my obliterates hit for 23-25k with 2 agility offpieces, with a strength i can hit up to 27-29k no sweat.
out of icc with agility offpieces im pretty sure ive never hit over 17k, ive done up to 19k+ with str set up with obliterate.Edited: December 4, 2016
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Wind of Northrend
Well, again, i dont agree. Let me post this here first, so u can listen to a nice song while u read: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPW8nXAEIBk :D
My point was that warriors gain MOST attack power, out of all the other classes, for going plate strength gear instead of agility items and yet they go for toskks and frostbrood.
That is not the exact case since capping expertise is easy on Frost DK aswell. Legs + Neck/Cloak + 15exp enchant on gloves/+10exp10hit if u went for cloak.
Crit gained from agility is same for both DKs and Warriors, its the paladins that get more crit from agility.
I know i said warmane is not retail 1000 times, but even on retail, in every bis list for FDK u could find Toskks and Frostbrood.
Going for wrist and ring agility items ONLY, compared to ur list, especialy if u trade hit from ashen ring for armor penetration which will result u having more passive attack power wont make u lose 4k dmg on Obliterate, i can bet my account on that. Its the attack power that dictates ur dmg, not the amount of strength u have. I rly dont understand how can losing 100atk power and getting 5% crit can be bad for u (this is just an example, i dont know the exact trade stats atm). :D
Now that i think about it, not going for t10 legs might be a bad thing... Il try to find a bit better itemization for Orcs FDKs and post it soon.
But i guess we can agree to desagree... :D
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Wind of Northrend
BiS list for orcs on how i see it should be exactly the same as stated in my "Itemisation number 1" on FDK DPS with some minor changes:
[Penumbra Pendant] - O(10exp10hit) instead of [Lana'thel's Chain of Flagellation] - O(10str10hit)
[Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] - R+R(20expertise) - Greater Assault
[Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy] - R+R+R - Crusher (44atkpower)
U will have 26/21 expertise which shouldnt be a problem since dodges on offhand wont **** up ur rotation.
Raid buffed u will be on: 7k atk power (with JC+BS), 49% crit chance.
[Sylvanas' Cunning] + [Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] + [Frostbrood Sapphire Ring]
VS
[Might of the Ocean Serpent] + [Bracers of the Heir] + [Zarithrian's Offering]
335 attack power lost, 6.63% crit gained, Raid buffed (5.2% if u remove crit from Sylvanas Cunning since MotOS doesnt have passive crit in it, but again expertise is useless at this point so it should be a fair trade since there is no other cloak with strength that has armor pen on it).
U can have 1 more talent point in BCB instead of Subversion and have more DPS overall even tho u lost Strength.
But again, this is how i would play my orc FDK, if u have another way of doin it and u are happy with ur DPS, keep going like that. :D
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Forum Veteran
I'm using only t10 pants for expertise on my unholy orc. Rest I get from Axe mastery, talents and one red expertise gem. 26 expertise.
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Wind of Northrend
@Angrylol
Lucky bastard! Yea, orcs are OP af as DKs, especialy unholy since u get 5% more dmg on pets from Command and dmg boost on garg from Blood Fury... Gnomes dont have much tbh. :D
Oh yea that reminds me, for Unholy DK orc DPS u can go with T10 legs and cap expertise with eaz, if u hate watching urself getting dodged. If u like haste from VDW legs there is no need for u to cap expertise at all, u can just play with 10 expertise from Axe Specialization and Talents and do same amount of DPS sometimes even more if u get lucky and not a single dodge happens. :D
Dont u need 20exp + 10exp10hit to cap expertise with only legs as orc btw?
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Forum Veteran
yeah, 10 is enough
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Member
Unlike warrs we have the most op ench, Fallen Crusader enchant which doesn't give a crap about AP from agility items.
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Member
good point, forgot about that 1.
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Wind of Northrend
And on top of that Unbreakable Armor increases ur strength by 20%.
For this im using the Orc BIS list for FDK, so i have couple of more agy items but i will compare these 4 only. Stats stated are also self buffed with Horn of Winter.
Lets say u have Toskks and Frostbrood (1965 strength). When u replace them with [Bracers of the Heir] and [Zarithrian's Offering] u gain 202 Strength (2167 strength). Ur total passive attack power will increase from 5135 to 5299 and u will lose 3.18% crit.
40 (from UA) + 30 (from FC) total of 70 strength increase when u have UA and FC up...
Both [Bracers of the Heir] and [Zarithrian's Offering] give 12 less armor penetration each, which is 24 armor penetration less on total. U lose arround 150 attack power for 3% crit. If u say u have enough crit alrdy, drop 1 point from Subversion and get 3/3 BCB. Total dps from 3/3 BCB will make up for the 150 attack power lost...
I never said go 6+ agy items cos Crit > Arp > Strength. But u cant prove me that Toskks and Frostbrood isnt better than BotH and ZO (or even Might of Blight). I took all of those into account. Only way u will make more DPS as full Strength FDK is if the other DK with more crit gets raped with bad RNG on crits and u end up doin more crits than him.
@Verminslayer, for ur itemisation u would lose 59 hit from Ashen for 68 armor penetration from Frostbrood which is basicly 68 strength, so u would basicly gain free crit for almost the same passive attack power.
@Trm90, On topic of warriors: They have PASSIVE 20% Strength Increase from [Improved Berserker Stance] and [Armored to the Teeth] that increases attack power based on armor value. And on top of that, they dont do 250% of normal dmg on their crits as FDKs do...
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Wind of Northrend
Agility VS Strength build... Suit urself these are the final stats. BS + JC.
Without buffs: http://imgur.com/a/g06BW
Raid buffs (no food, no flask): http://imgur.com/a/l39WB
Both builds are exactly on 1395 armor penetration.
Edit: Im not saying one of these builds is bad, and the other is awesome. I just prefer going more crit, thats how i play my FDK. In the end the main DPS diference will be dictated by RNG on pestilence miss/resist and DBW proc. If u like doin something else, do it, i want this tread to have as many suggestions as posible for new DKs to have a good start and for avrg DKs to get better. If im beeing stuborn at something im sorry for that, give me time, sometimes i need 1-2 days to realise im wrong about something. Feel free to suggest anything, since i can basicly test everything, stat wise, and i got a lot of free time nowadays... :DEdited: December 6, 2016
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Wind of Northrend
A slight change that can be done in Alliance FDK build...
Without buffs: http://imgur.com/a/A1Oak
Raid buffs (no food, no flask): http://imgur.com/a/gpeHw
[Penumbra Pendant] - O (10str10haste)
[Might of the Ocean Serpent] - O (10exp10hit) - Major Agility
[Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] - R+R - Greater Assault
[Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy] - R+R+R - Expertise
[Lana'thel's Chain of Flagellation] - O (10str10hit)
[Vereesa's Dexterity] - R - Major Agility
[Toskk's Maximized Wristguards] - O (10str10crit) +R - Greater Assault
[Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy] - O (10str10crit) +R+R - Expertise
Edit:
U can also add:
[Zarithrian's Offering] - R
if u want more Strength.
Or if u want full Strength build: http://imgur.com/a/YalPOEdited: December 6, 2016
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