Hey Everyone! This will be a loong post!
First of all, if they actually did reply to this topic, please link me the thread. I read most of the lordaeron thread (200 pages of posts in total) and also I checked 30 to 50 page of both the lordaeron forum and the general discussion forum. And despite being many post about this i could not find any response: I would only like to know some insight about this topic from GMs and Forum staff, I'm not bashing warmane nor the staff choices for the server.
I would like to know why no staff members respond to the posts regarding the progression through achivement locks. For those who don't know what i'm talking about this kind of progression focuses on the idea that you have to do prior patch content before accessing the next tier: this progression system would be summarized in the next few points (there are many version of it, depending on what the player wants obviously):
1. The achievents of previous content are required for doing next content tiers: to do ulduar you need naxx achi, to do ToC you need ulduar.. Usually EoE, Os and other minor raids are not required.
2. The dungeon related to patches are available only to those player who did do the previous raid content: to do ToC 5man (both heroic and normal) you need to do ulduar (maybe not the whole raid but some achievements (for example keepers).
3. The emblem drops from dungeons are related to player progression but raid will always drops the same emblems. This way you get the gear relevant to the difficulty of content that you do (i know about raid buffs, more on that later) but dungeons will be relevant thoughout the all expansion. This point varies a lot depending on player point of view: some would like that dungeons emblems drops would be the exact emblem type of the current raid tier drops they're progressing in (for example while you do naxx you get the same emblems so heroism or valor, since originally naxx 10 dropped heroism and naxx 25 valor). I disagree, dungeon should always drop emblem at least 1 tier less that the current raid tier because they are easier that raid ofc. Also in this point something that should be decided is which emblems drop from which raids and most people agree with the fact that they should drop the type of emblems they originally dropped when they were on live, during the respective patches ( so naxx 10 hero,naxx 25 valor, ulduar conquest, ToC triumph, Icc frost). It could also be considered that emblems drops from raid depend from player progression similar to what i said abut dungeons but i don't know about that because for example if you're progressing through icc then naxx, uld and ToC would drop all triumph; but what would happen is that after they did weekly icc and got lockouts they would spam naxx since it is easier and would drop same type of emblems. Honestly i don't know how to feel about that.
So why would the choice of implementing this system do good to the server and be enjoyable to players, and why i think GMs should consider this?
1. Longevity. We all know that Lordaeron won't progress thorugh cata so what would be the difference contentwise beetween the Icecrown server and the Lordaeron? I think just the difficulty. This server in my opinion needs a long term plan except for the hardcore feel: once icc will release what people will do is just get to 80 then spam dungeon and get to ToC (or even icc), skipping 2 tiers entirely and 4 raids. I think people would be more engaged and stay more on the server with this system sympy beacuse player must do a lot more to reach the point where they stop because there's nothing more to do.
2. Variety. Not only this system would provide more content in the long run but also would "force" players to experience different environments in different raids, making so that the player feels a lot less bored to do the same content, simply because by the time he had enough of naxxramas he could most likely progress to ulduar.
3. Progression feeling. The fact that you need to overcome an obstacle, than after that obstacle another one appears more challenging but (most importantly) a different one is a huge pro to me. And should give more motivation and so pleasure to players. Once they get to 80 they'll probably think "man i want do down the lich king" but since after 1-2 months probably they are going to beat 10 man icc on normal (by spamming dungeons all day long than though emblems purchase gear that gets you ready for icc 10) this feeling slowly fades away because you've seen all the content, you just need to do it in an hard mode. With this system once you get to 80 you'll say "man i really want to down the lk" but soon you realise that you have a long list of things to do before that and a few days in a plyer would think "man, ow that i started naxx i really wanna kill kt", and after that yogg saron and then anub'arak and then you get to the lk. This will be more motivation and will keep player hooked for more.
4. Nothing really changes for the worse. You see the upgrades will still be there, in fact once you get to 80 you do naxx, os and eoe, then ulduar, then ulduar hm, the Toc and onyxia.. There's in fact a lot more upgrades gearwise so nothing really changes, except for the fact that at lvl cap you want to do 4 tiers and so 7 raids excluding hard modes and heroic and raid sizes (7 different raids, different bosses, different looks and feels), while in this state once icc comes you'll be doing at most 2 raids excluding the same.
5. Not doing so is a waste, you have 4 tiers in an expansion, why use just 1 and a half? simply because blizz did so when 3.3 came out? This system can improve a lot on what blizz did, wasting 4 raids and 2 tiers is, let me say, odd.
The only real negative I can see with this system is people wanting to do icc and just that raid because it si that good, but even those people would realize that this way you'll get bored fast.
I might add that also people wanna do just big dps and see big numbers so having the best gear faster should be better, but i trust that in this server there are few people like that (and the point above still stand to those, you'll get bored eventually.). Here in lordaeron we want the challenge and i bet most want a true progression feeling, if the GMs can nerf a bit the entry level raids (like naxx, i heard is coming, or even did just came) everyone would be happy. Just like in TBC, the real casual people can enjoy doing naxx pugs and maybe some ulduar, the real hardcore still will reach icc, and the people who just enjoy raiding will get there eventually but slowly progressing thorugh different content.
Thank you a lot to those who read through this essay lol, but I really appreciate if you could comment a lot and see if we can get the GMs to speak on this topic, Thanks!
-
Member
Progression: Please staff reply.
-
Member
What you wrote here is a suggestion. Suggestions go to the Suggestions & Changes part of the forum. If you write here they will treat it as a discussion between players and they probably won't respond. Post in the right section (although they probably won't respond there either xD)
-
Member
1. Lordaeron has suffered great amount of player loss in last months and after TOC players have started to come back, so don't throw out funny suggestions to push them back again.
2. This is Lordaeron, a realm with challenging content and not for each and everyone to fulfill his fantasy ideas.
3. Stop trying to make Lordaeron a copy of another realm [wont mention the name for forum rules], that realm doesn't have even more than 1.5k online players at peak times for those silly + annoying reasons. People go there, faceroll the raids and get achieves. so that doesn't makes any sense according to the concept of Lordaeron.
-
Member
Well, you are probably right lol.. Honestly though i would like to hear some feedback from the community on this topic first, there,s not much point in posting something there if no one backs it up.. :)
-
Field Medic Moderator
This is an interesting concept. However, I believe it may be counter-intuitive in the later patches. Particularly the ToC and ICC patch content where the "catch-up" dungeons exist: Trial of the Champion and The Frozen Halls. Those dungeons were implemented by Blizzard so that players would have an easier time catching up to "current content" that the bulk of the older players were doing without having to grind through previous raid tiers. It may be something worth considering though.
Also, don't be discouraged about submitting a suggestion thread in the suggestions section. Usually we allow our members to discuss the idea(s) in the thread unless we have an immediate answer for the suggestion in question (which, in this case, we do not).
Consider refining/reiterating the idea. In the mean time, I'll show this to Proterean, one of our community managers.
-
Member
Don't understand why you have this attitude man, I just want to hear some people opinion about this..
1.why this suggestion should push back anyone? I gave my reason to why it would be exatcly tge opposite: more content and variety shoul keep player mich more insterested. You shiuld say why you are against it by motivating your points :)
2. I Don't wanna take awat the difficult part of the game: from what i heard nerfs arr gonna come eventually, and no one runa naxx for gear anyway, so whats the issue? I'm not saying it should be a faceroll at all. Just make the raid worth doing gearwise.. Afterwarfa you'll have even more chalange with even more raids.. Don't tell me you wont get bored spamming dungeon and icc :)
3. A copy?! I just think they have a good feature that is all. Warmane would have challenging content and no rdf. While not wasting tiers and content.. If someone else has a good idea it does not mean they should not take it into consideration?
You explaines 3 points without motivating them at all. Tell me "why" you think point 1 (since about point 2-3 i said it is not what i meant at all). You should justify what you arr saying, not just throwing out there random statement.
I actually really wanna hear from people about this topic since i saw no one really disagree with it in previous posts :)
-
Member
I would agree with what you said about the catch up system but there's not really a need for one since the server is not progression after wotlk.. I mean people have all the time they need to reach icc..
Also even in retail i kinda disliked this kind of catch up.. In 3.2 and 3.3 the catch up in my opinioj should serve as a way to make so the gearing process through previous tier is faster, but what happened is that people skipped altogether that big chunck of content..
This progression system allows a much faster progression (than slowly grinding raids) since after you complete one raid emblem drops from dungeon upgrades making so that those serve as catch up, but only after the player has experienced the content ( and will keep experiencing).
That is just my opinion though..
Thanks for replying, maybe i'll copy paste sonething on the suggestion thread.
Thanks a lot, good day :)
-
Member
Now that is a great suggestion and in my opinion it also goes along well with the hardcore feels that is supposed to be the difference between this server and other wotlk servers, besides scripting of course. This system would develop the community too.. as the next tier would consist of players that have raided quite a bit. Thus making the whole experience less of a **** fest due to gearscore maniacs & carries. Also completely agree about the longevity plan there, great stuff!
-
Field Medic Moderator
I completely understand. I'm just saying that we have Blizzard's design of the game to consider, though. Those catch-up dungeons largely make the earlier raids irrelevant. For example, when you can get 232 ilvl out of heroic Frozen Halls dungeons - Naxxramas becomes completely irrelevant. All that would matter would be mechanics that have the potential to one-shot, such as Heigan.
I get that this is a "filter" for a set quality of players, but it also divides the community in a way that I feel is almost meaningless when gear becomes a non-issue. I've seen this happen on live with the proving grounds in Warlords of Draenor. I'm not going to go into detail on that, because I could write a book. I will say, though, that the only real division here is the division of groups - not players.
1.
If some guy, who happens to be absolutely horrible at the game, joins a PUG and that PUG carries him through the raid and gets the achievements necessary - guess what then? He doesn't need to farm Naxx because he has gear from Trial of the Champion (or in the future, the Frozen Halls). So straight on to Ulduar he goes!
2.
Another guy, who happens to be really good at the game and likes to play with his friends (in a guild), but refuses to join PUGs. Let's say his friends and guild are just not that good at the game. One day, they manage to finally get a kill on KelThuzad - a kill they won't be able to repeat anytime soon because they just aren't very good at the game. The group moves on to do Ulduar. Our guy here joins up with his friends at this point - he has no Naxx achievement and his friends are doing Ulduar.
"Can I come to Ulduar with you guys on Saturday?"
"Nah man, you have to beat KT in Naxx first."
"Alright, when do you guys raid Naxx?"
"We don't do that anymore. Old raid. KT is OP anyway. Can't be arsed to do that."
"Well, how do I join you in Ulduar then?"
"You will need to pug it."
Do you see where I'm going with this?
I'm not arguing against the idea, per se. Just pointing out some concerns that the staff will be looking at when deciding if it's worth implementation. "Is it fair?" "Can it be exploited?" "Will it accomplish the goal it set out to do?" "Could changes be made to make the idea stand a better chance?" So on and so forth.
-
Member
Damn you're so harsh. You have no Mercy:D
The ideea is good on paper, but not good to be implemented. It won't attract new people to realm and in time the number of players will lower. The best thing for a long term realm is to increase time between new content is opened and in this time you force people to play more old raids. Wathever I see that TOC is now opened on Lordaeron, there are 2 more contents to be released (ICC - a big one and RS - small). I think after ICC would be released the population will growth.
-
Member
The question is for how long though? Of course Icc patch is more beloved by the playerbase than ToC but you have to think in the long run why people should be motivated to stay here other than guildies.. It would take a few months for people to realise that this server probably has nothing more to offer them since it would be stuck on Icc with only Icc, Rs and maybe ToC worth doing.
Mine is just a simple introduction to the system, in fact I stated that there could be various ways in which you could expand and vary this "progression system".
I agree it is not easy to implement but the fact that it is not easy should not just make so they lose hope on the topic. :)
And even if it is not perfect, i think it would be a better idea in the long run nonetheless, since spamming heroics and icc is not a "fresh" type of content when you do it for the 3/4th time..
Thanks for replying though :D
-
Moderator
Simply put, trying to force players to play the way you "envision" by setting gates they have to go through to continue playing the game is a bad idea. Players want to play the game their own way as much as possible. You already are barred from top content by the fact you can't simply do it all on your own and the further you go, the more you need an increasingly better group. Having the game customized to make it obligatory that players don't skip content they wish to will just discourage players, in a server that already has many customizations that discourage a lot from giving it a try. This feels to me like the sort of thing players can limit themselves by if they wish, as a group or as a guild, but not something to force on everyone.
What you say about players getting demotivated also feels like projecting. Yes, the content eventually ends, but that's something everyone knows. People usually come because they want to play that specific expansion anyways, aware of where the content ends. That's where they create alts or just move on. We've had Wrath of the Lich King servers for years and they have always been very populated, without any sort of major exodus because older players got done with all the expansion had to give. Gating content behind achievements wouldn't change that, it would just create a fake delay for it to happen, anyways.
-
Member
I agree with the first paragraph, in fact that's what I said, more or less (let me know if I misunderstood).
Regarding the following:
1. In this system a fresh 80 who didn't do ToC should not be able to have the gear since the only raids he can do are naxx/eoe/os and part of VoA; also, the gear of the same ilvl of ToC from emblem vendors should not be accessible to him since he does not gain emblem of triumph from dungeon, while he progresses through naxx bosses should give him emblem of heroism, so that he can get started with naxx 10/25 (heroism emblems drop 200 ilvl i know, and naxx 10 too, but you can't get full gear of 200 by purchasing with emblems soo the problem is kind of solved; afterwards, during ulduar dungeon may drop valor so that he does not obtain gear equal to raid, and so on..). So i don't see the problem there ( maybe i did not understood, let me know).
If you are talking about people who did progress till ToC right know but didn't do naxx (because it is no longer necessary) i don't know, you could simply give the achievement to them based of their ilvl? So they don't have to do prior content if it is not useful for them, since the are already progressing in ToC or ulduar: the members of a guild that is doing ToC 25 but didn't do ulduar/naxx (but they have gear well past ulduar, like 225/230 (?)), should just receive both the naxx and ulduar achi automatically since it is of no use to them; but the dungeon should drop emblem of conquest (and not triumph if we're on 3.3.5) beacuse they did not have ToC achi yet.
2. Mmm I never taught about this situation but you have to admit it is pretty unlikely: since after doing 1 complete naxx run probably players in that guild aren't nearly geared enough for ulduar they should keep doing naxx a bit, and with better gear obtain through various (even if not complete) runs I think they would be eventually able to down kt, don't you think?
Anyway i can see where are you going with this and it could be an issue, i agree. You must admit that it is quite unlikely though..
Well first I would say that this guild is full of really mean people lol, but it's true guild like that would exist anyway if this system was the case.
Maybe (the first thought that came to mind) as a backup plan a player with x amount of ilvl could be allowed into raids he didn't have the achi prerequisistes for? This way the guild would still do naxx (both for the guy and for themselves: fun, emblem drops and gear needed by players) and even if they don't down kt the guy would gear up past a limit (210/212? for naxx 25 i mean; 198 or something like that for naxx 10 since you get blues from heroics also) that will automatically function as achi unlock for him..
I know this idea too have some issues (like people gearing with purps they don't need for ilvl only, but you have to admit that your statement is pretty damn rare (the more i think about it) since naxx should be an entry level raid and (hopefully) would be not that hard for even casuals. Also if I was in that guild I would leave since "they are not at my level" and they are quite the mean people.
Even in case that guy should find just 1 good pug for an entry level raid.
I'm sure you can come up with better solutions yourself, or the community herself may. I dunno :/
-
Member
Well i'm asking the community what they think about this idea, i'm not enforcing anything, it's a suggestion to see if people are keen on agreeing with this.
From what I know there are a lot of players who hate this catch up system aswell, and part of those who don't hate it care mostly about the upgrades, the gear drop which is useful. I don't think that many people play specifically for Icc content, since it is not out yet but 6k people a day are playing anyway.
The core concept of mmo is progressing with people to overcome obstacles you can't do yourself alone. It is the soul of the mmo itself, it is not a single player game so obviously you have to rely on others.
I know that I might be the only one thinking this way but the fact that whenever this topic was brough up no one really was against it make me think that a lot of people do agree with this idea. It is just a way to feel the progression and not working for 1 single objective that gets stale quick.
It is a philosophy since vanilla and people enjoyed it! A player in Tbc who had tier 6 was a badass because he did that by working hard and investing lots of time through kara, grull, magh, ssc, tk.. The guys with kara gear (from what I remember were happy with the progression trough kara because they received upgrades anyway, the felt rewarded, but as it should be they did not had tier 6 because they "did ìn't deserve it".
Of course content would get stale anyway but it would take a lot (and by a lot i mean A LOT) more. People who played wotlk in general enjoy the expansion, not only icc fos pos hor.
Also as Mikrob stated the feeling of progression is connected to hardcore like back in the days of vanilla, tbc AND wotlk up to 3.2.
It is just an opinion though, but thanks for replying :)
-
Moderator
It's a suggestion to enforce something, one which would affect not only current players, but any that might consider playing in Lordaeron in the future as well. Even if the people are keen on agreeing with this, we can't just close the server around what the vocal minority (most players don't post on the Forums) might find interesting.
Which is precisely why I say this is a case of "if you like it, do it." Create a guild around the idea of gated progress and such. Organize cross-guild stuff for those who are into this but don't want to leave their guilds. If that many people are into the idea, they should be perfectly capable of following with it without a system in place to force it, no?
Sorry, but no. It just means a lot of the players don't use the Forums and even less bother to post.
And Blizzard changed because chances are the amount of people into that is a small set of "hardcore+" players, while most are more interested in progressing and exploring at their own pace, making their own choices of what to skip, having fun their way. Plus, yet again, this sort of limitation can be perfectly self-imposed on players who want to do that.
Which means people who dislike this would either be forced to take "A LOT" more time to do what they want or, much more likely, go play on Icecrown or another private server instead.
We already have enough "hardcore" with RDF being deactivated. It's a feature that I feel most people "put up with," not really in fact enjoy. Having yet another enforced progression-blocker, and a fully custom one that didn't exist, would just push even more people away.
Quote
