BM hunters

[Callisto93]

I can clearly see why you aren't. He has put a lot of effort into making it and I find saying this not only disrespectful, but also ridiculous. If you can make a better report, show some engagement or just stop posting in a thread about a topic you don't care about.

You need to stop insulting every actual hunter that shows up and maybe accept that nobody is going to listen to you until you give some reasonable proof and stop bashing those who are simply showing where the flaws in this whole post are. Notorious is one of the very few who actually reported and tested many hunter bugs, insulting him is "not only disrespectful, but also ridiculous".

The point isn't "this is easier for a gm", if every bug was GM's job to test nothing would ever get fixed for the simple fact that they have jobs outside of testing bugs and we also outnumber them by far. And I'm pretty sure GMs can test but it's devs who do the fixing...Or,imagine a GM say he/she disagrees with you and sees no problem, you could argue with a GM all day but again you would need to do exactly what Notorious said, show evidence.

Either way, if this is too much effort for you then deal with the bug, but if you want it fixed then show some real evidence, GMs also need to know how you got to the conclusion that it's bugged and how they can see it's bugged themselves. Look at some of the reports that did get accepted and fixed, look in how much detail they were explained. And no, you wouldn't need to do each trinket, do few and show that you are right-when they learn how to fix those few the same fix might be applied to the rest.

[MysticElegy]

Do the same as you described earlier? An ilvl nerf would nerf the proc AND the static stat the gear provides (I can't think of a single pve trinket with an ilvl of >522 that has a proc but no static stats). So why wouldn't it be enough to see that the static stats indeed don't get lower in bgs for trinkets above 540?

I can clearly see why you aren't. He has put a lot of effort into making it and I find saying this not only disrespectful, but also ridiculous. If you can make a better report, show some engagement or just stop posting in a thread about a topic you don't care about.

If you want to prove that ilvl (and by extension, stats on the gear) for PvE gear does not scale down, what you need to do is the following:

1. Obtain ilvl gear above ilvl 550 (ilvl 540 can also work, but for the sake of argument, 550 is easier). You may have to raid or ask a friend. If you're too lazy to do this, then give up on bug-reporting, because no-one is going to take you seriously until YOU spend time.
2. Check stats and take a screenshot with gear.
3. Enter BG and check stats. MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO DIFFERENT BUFFS FROM STEP 2. Take screenshot.
4. Use eyes to check if stats are in fact different. If ilvl downscaling is correctly working, your stats should be lower.
5. Make a report with the screenshots.

Now for trinket main stat gain, this is more difficult. You again need to find a trinket with ilvl above 550. You then need to do the following (depending on trinket):

1. If trinket gives main stat (+agility) go to a dummy.
2. Equip trinket
3. Strip of all gear except trinket and a weapon
4. Take SS of agility before starting.
5. Hit dummy until trinket procs
6. Take SS of agility
7. Use calculator to calculate how much agility you gained. It should be same amount trinket says you should gain
8. Get 3 friends and make a 2v2 war game.
9. Remove all buffs (if you got any)
10. Take SS of agility, should be same as step 4
11. Hit people (make sure you don't have buffs) until trinket procs
12. Take SS of agility
13. Calculate how much agility changed between 11 and 12
14. Compare 13 and 7. If they are same, report bug

For proc rate, best you can do is go to a dummy and hit it for an hour. Use recount to check how many times trinket procced.
Then find 3 friends, and make a 2v2 war game. Have friend stand still and use EXACT same gear and hit them for an hour. Use recount to check proc rate. If proc rates same, there is a bug and report it.

The bug reports made thus far are all garbage, and you should feel blessed they haven't been dismissed. If I was QA, I'd dismiss it and ask Edifice to give you a 1 week ban for making stupid reports.

Again, if you want to report bugs, spend time and test it thoroughly. Double check everything. You might make a mistake in your report (I do all the time) but at least put some ****ing effort into it, rather than saying something "feels" bugged...

To be clear, I am referring to only the report made by Kron here.
As you said, there is a lack of proof in his report. But that's not the reason given by two of the staff members for dismissing it. I'd be satisfied if that was it, even though for a bug like this, proof is less important. Why? Because the purpose of providing proof is to show that the author put at-least some effort into making the bug report. Even if proof is given, the Devs would've to check it themselves thoroughly since there's always the chance the author can make a mistake, just like you said. But here, the bug in question is not some silly visual bug that very few people care about. This one is important enough to warrant attention from Devs even without proof. And enough people are talking about it, so this isn't someone randomly creating reports of big bugs to flood the bugtracker.

How long did the report for Stampede, the most-voted ( at that time) report stay in bug tracker without getting fixed, even after numbers were thrown at it from a multitude of angles? What about Deterrence bug in Wotlk? And so many more with proof in the bugtracker have gone too long without fixes. Clearly, providing proof can't be held as the sole reason for a bug not getting fixed, or atleast taken into consideration.

Still, I'd be satisfied. But again, this is not what caused the report's dismissal.
Let's say someone is trying to find proof, taking into consideration what you and the staff have said. How would they go about it? You've laid out the step by step instructions and I truly appreciate that effort. But, which trinket should be tested first? Will the person have to just test the one or two trinkets he can get and then extrapolate to assume the other trinkets are/are not bugged as well? Players who've been here for a while would know that when it comes to bugs here, such assumptions are weak footed and thus counter-productive to the process of proofing. Only a thorough testing would be acceptable.

So,would he/she have to test out each and every other gear and trinket, make reports (if need be) for them separately?
For this, that person would need atleast a few classes at level 90, and all the gear and trinkets worth thousands of VP and whatnot. Thus, the players eligible to provide proof would be those who have put in a very large amount of time and effort in MoP here to gear out many characters in PvE, or donated for a considerable amount. Another option is to ask friends with high end PvE gear and the proper classes. That's hundreds of gear and trinkets to test. Also, all end PvE content isn't even fully scripted here, afaik.

Clearly, this is way too much effort for a player to go into making a proof that serves such a needless purpose. If this testing is done by a GM, it would be much, much easier. Given that they would need to do it by themselves anyway, even if proof is in report, why shouldn't the GMs try it first?

If the bug in question had been about an ability, like Stampede, players could provide proof with effort. In that case, your answer would've been perfect.
Looking at all this, and then checking the report made by MysticElegy, just shows that it was an attempt of desperation which I perfectly understand. His report is ****ty, sure, but his attempt at it is definitely understandable given the reason for dismissal of Kron's report. As for his report, if I was Q&A, I would delete it, but no ban. :)

Just to clarify, the reason why the bug report I made looks like **** is due to the reasoning given for the dismissal of the previous bug report. I just didn't know what the devs wanted so I gave a sparse one to see what additional details they needed. I too was under the impression that QA would have to do more testing themselves to verify the authenticity of the report, which would be more effective. Imagine if it was someone that only did PvP on this server and you told him he had to do pve to get the proof needed. Sure he could do it, but in the time spent getting his proof, we could be doing something else more productive to resolve this issue because as I said, even after QA gets the proof from the player, they still need to do testing themselves. Giving the QA so-called proof first might be the proper way to do things, but in this case I don't think it is a good idea to follow standard procedure.

[Kite009]

Imagine a GM say he/she disagrees with you and sees no problem, you could argue with a GM all day but again you would need to do exactly what Notorious said, show evidence.

If the GMs disagree after testing, and they see no problem, then that's that. They're the most experienced and I would trust their judgement. But we're not even near that stage yet.

And no, you wouldn't need to do each trinket, do few and show that you are right-when they learn how to fix those few the same fix might be applied to the rest.

If testing a few items is enough to confirm status of bug for all items under consideration, then yes, a player can do it, and make a report with proof of those particular items. If a staff member can confirm this, I'd be grateful. I, for one, wouldn't assume that's the case. That is the nature of a bug, isn't it ?

[Callisto93]

If the GMs disagree after testing, and they see no problem, then that's that. They're the most experienced and I would trust their judgement. But we're not even near that stage yet.



If testing a few items is enough to confirm status of bug for all items under consideration, then yes, a player can do it, and make a report with proof of those particular items. If a staff member can confirm this, I'd be grateful. I, for one, wouldn't assume that's the case. That is the nature of a bug, isn't it ?

Well the thing is, they are not going to test if you don't give them a reason to. Screaming I got hit 170k by a hunter I didn't even see is far from a reason to test every pve trinket. I managed to crit a full geared guy 140k yesterday which is again really high but I don't have any pve trinkets, so there's that, a possibility of one of those rare crits. There is also a possibility of a visual bug,like when items are not shown as reforged/enchanted/tmogged until you relog, that would need to be confirmed though,again,by testing.

The way I see it,if you prove that one of each type of trinkets is bugged,like one shado-pan,one timeless isle,one idk,not very good with pve trinkets,when they fix those,you can simply add more and it would be easier to fix,or at least easier to test even for them. You prove that 3-4 trinkets are bugged and you have a reason to mention that the rest of the same type might be bugged as well, maybe they would even come to the same conclusion alone and/or apply some kind of mass fix that is not based on a specific trinket but on all pve trinkets.

[Kite009]

The way I see it,if you prove that one of each type of trinkets is bugged,like one shado-pan,one timeless isle,one idk,not very good with pve trinkets,when they fix those,you can simply add more and it would be easier to fix,or at least easier to test even for them. You prove that 3-4 trinkets are bugged and you have a reason to mention that the rest of the same type might be bugged as well, maybe they would even come to the same conclusion alone and/or apply some kind of mass fix that is not based on a specific trinket but on all pve trinkets.

Again, if that was the case, why have the staff yet to say anything about it ? Mercy replied in this thread, and BlueAo in bugtracker. The issue they both raised with the report had nothing to do with proof. I'd be a happy duck if testing 3-4 trinkets would finally get us started to making some actual progress. Also, like I said, if proof was the reason for report's dismissal, I'd be satisfied.

As for the screenshots, I agree with you. Multiple unedited, in context, showing the BM hunter with his buffs and the environment (whether it's ToK or somewhere special) are required. If the testing was done in a duel, a video perhaps. If PvE downscaling is the bug, then it's not just BM Hunter that would reap the results.

[Callisto93]

Again, if that was the case, why have the staff yet to say anything about it ? Mercy replied in this thread, and BlueAo in bugtracker. The issue they both raised with the report had nothing to do with proof. I'd be a happy duck if testing 3-4 trinkets would finally get us started to making some actual progress. Also, like I said, if proof was the reason for report's dismissal, I'd be satisfied.

As for the screenshots, I agree with you. Multiple unedited, in context, showing the BM hunter with his buffs and the environment (whether it's ToK or somewhere special) are required. If the testing was done in a duel, a video perhaps. If PvE downscaling is the bug, then it's not just BM Hunter that would reap the results.

I agree,would be nice to get a reply and also as you said, if the problem lies within the trinkets then firstly, this is the wrong thread for it and secondly, you can test it with any class. Maybe for a start just test one trinket and see if we get any reply from the gms then, baby steps.

[Mercy]

What am I missing here?

That several things that are mentioned are, in fact, their own issues. You're crazy if it can be approached as a "blanket fix" on everything. People aren't complaining about just ilvl, or just stats, or just procs, etc. The whole thing is being reported as a bulk issues when it's much more complicated than that. You can't just throw all the fish in the same bucket, no matter how closely related they are, and expect it to be handled. I'm pretty sure I made myself clear in my previous post. How you can be confused about it, I'm not sure.

This is not even to mention that, as Notorious has covered, that there is no evidence provided that it does, in fact, work incorrectly. There are plenty of citations in the report about "it's supposed to work X way", but there isn't any evidence in the report that it currently doesn't work that way on the live realm. This is usually something that should be included in the report, and I'd imagine that it's not exactly difficult to obtain this sort of data.

An ilvl nerf would nerf the proc AND the static stat the gear provides

This is usually true, and it's often safe to go by this as a standard. However, it is not always true. There are a variety of procs that scale with your gear (attack power, spell power, crit, haste, etc etc) and not with the ilvl of the item. The legendary cloaks are a very good example of this.

Ok, first of all, there are several reasons why I in particular think there's still some bug, and in fact I posted them before:

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....=1#post2758936
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....=1#post2759261

Besides, we all know that this bug effectively existed in the past in the server: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....=1#post2758704

So, if it's still not fixed, then the bug still persists. Now, let's assume that it was fixed, then I ask: Why no staff member has appeared so far to say just that? What's the big deal? And so, we could have moved forward and make some tests or to try to check if there are other possible bugs, why letting us to waste time this way when maybe we could have discovered something else?

This is what the change-log and bug-tracker are for. Not the forum. If you want someone to post that "X or Y is fixed!", that is where you should look. Not the forum.

Anyways, I personally don't have any trinket or PvE gear, because I don't make PvE, but since all this seems a little 'shady' yet, I guess I'll have to start doing it to get some items.

Feel free to enlist the help of others.

As you said, there is a lack of proof in his report. But that's not the reason given by two of the staff members for dismissing it.

It actually is, though. Also trying to take a post of mine as "the final and only" reason for the report having been dismissed is silly. Silly because it's not a fair argument point. Especially since you're disregarding the staff reply to the bug-report itself, and other bug-reports that have been linked since that post. It's been made pretty clear that there is more than just one reason for having closed the report.

If you're going to make a report, please provide all necessary evidences that it is bugged. Evidence of how it should work is great, too, but it is secondary to evidence of the thing in question being bugged/broken. So, please follow the uniform of the reporting process. If you cannot do that, then don't go and post on the forum complaining that it got dismissed - you should expect that. There is a reason there is a uniform format, and that is why we ask that you do it in that way. The developer and QA teams have a significant workload and expecting them to do the leg work isn't going to work out. Yes, they can help with it, and I'm not saying that they don't. I'm saying that you shouldn't expect it. Complaining about this on the forum is completely unnecessary.

Exactly. For a GM it's a piece-of-cake to test, and since this issue would have been such a game-breaking, why to dismiss it in just minutes after the report was made, instead of some testing first?

Refer to what I've said above. If you're not willing to do the leg-work yourself, don't expect the developer, QA or GM, or whoever else you want to throw this at, to break out of their routine in order to do it themselves. If you want to be a helpful part of this process, you need to be willing to work for them - not insist that they do work for you. That's not how this works.

With all of that said, I will be closing this thread now. The fact that this thread has been open for so long has been generous as we don't normally allow threads like this to exist in the first place. If you continue to work with the bug-tracker as requested, then that is appreciated. However, in the future, please refrain from posting complains and/or rants about it on the forum. We get sometimes people need to vent, but posting it here, none of the necessary staff member swill be seeing it, so it's not going to help anyone get any work done.

Thank you for your patience,
Mercy