WotLK Fury warr BiS gear and rotation question.

[densi77]

Ok i simmed it with rawr, enabling all possible raid buffs, vereesa+umbrage, 1398 arp, all yellow slots str+haste, tear in chest and str resp. arp til the value in the red slots. and using expertise food. (i forced rawr to get me expertise and hit soft capped). Used BS and JC as basic professions. Rawr doesnt really allow to sim professions

[Jakkre]

Well, the food explains the drop really well. My bad.

18795 - http://imgur.com/a/h62oR

Changing glyph of cleaving to glyph of rending is also a dps gain. Makes it 18867 dps.
I also noticed that putting points from improved execute into unbridled wrath doesn't change the dps at all. Seems like it doesnt take these talents into account.

[jendah]

Changing glyph of cleaving to glyph of rending is also a dps gain. Makes it 18867 dps.
I also noticed that putting points from improved execute into unbridled wrath doesn't change the dps at all. Seems like it doesnt take these talents into account.

About Sunder question..
Fury is second best char for applying it (after prot war). It is almost always a dps gain raid-wise and ussually also personal. Apply it in frees when you dont have instant slam. Delay your rotation a bit untill you stack it up (2 sunders in long and 1 in short free).

I never liked rend as it is too easy to mess up with too little benefit. Better to use sunder imho (guaranteed raid-wide benefit).

Crit cap does not bother fury much - HS converts meele to special which has lot higher crit cap. Only thing that is inflicted by this are OH strikes.

@ wrists/backs debate: they sim almost the same and how they perform depends on luck -> higher crit with tossks/vereesas provides more consistant dmg, higher haste a bit more dmg when lucky a bit less when unlucky.

Chaotic meta is nonsense. 21 agi + 4 str out of not using second blue gem always outperforms 21 crit. - only case to take chaotic is when you have cryptmaker + gloren - as that socket bonus is higher than any other.

[Pencheto]

Chaotic meta is nonsense. 21 agi + 4 str out of not using second blue gem always outperforms 21 crit. - only case to take chaotic is when you have cryptmaker + gloren - as that socket bonus is higher than any other.

Chaotic is BIS meta when nighmare tear and 10arp + 15 stam in the blue slots. With BIS gear, optimal geming and + jewelcrafting gems will give you 1402 arp when going with tosks and 1400 when going with umbrage. the 10arp gem is too clutch to miss on and you get the socket bonus for another 6 unbuffed str.

this guy explains it

Actually Chaotic Skyflare Diamond is a better meta. Here are the facts.

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
45.91 Critical Strike Rating = 1% Critical Strike
With Chaotic Skyflare Diamond you will receive +21 Critical Strike Rating so:
21/4591 = 0.457% Critical Strike

Relentless Earthseige Diamond
62.5 Agility = 1% Critical Strike
With Relentless Earthseige Diamond you will receive +21 Agility so:
21/6250 = 0.336% Critical Strike

Yes, I know Agility gives Dodge, Armor, Crit and for some classes (not Warrior) attack power. However, Fury Warrior does not benefit from the additional armor and dodge.

You might say the extra crit isn't worth having to socket two blues required by Chaotic Skyflare Diamond over having to socket only one blue gem in Relentless Skyflare Diamond. My thinking on that argument is this:
With BiS gear you should have only two Blue Sockets, one on the chest, one on the legs. One will have Nightmare Tear. You now only need one more blue gem to activate Chaotic Skyflare Diamond. Depending on how you enchant and gem other slots you would use any of these gems:

Puissant Dreadstone +10 Armor Penetration +15 Stamina
Sovereign Dreadstone +10 Strength +15 Stamina
Jagged Eye of Zul +10 Critical Strike Rating +15 Stamina
Vivid Eye of Zul +10 Hit +15 Stamina

The best option to use is Vivid Eye of Zul. You will need 164 Hit Rating to get 5% Hit, combined with Precision 3/3 would make you hit capped. In BiS gear you get 140 Hit Rating. This means you will have to gem or enchant for 24 Hit Rating to reach the hit cap. One Rigid King's Amber (+20 Hit Rating) and One Vivid Eye of Zul will give you only an extra 6 Hit Rating over the hit cap and this is the route I suggest.

Let's discuss gemming Relentless Earthseige Diamond
Meeting the requirements are easy. You will need to gem 30 Hit if you decide to not enchant for it. You could do this three ways.

1) Two Rigid King's Amber +20 Hit

2) Vivid Eye of Zul +10 Hit +15 Stamina
Rigid King's Amber +20 Hit

3) Etched Ametrine +10 Strength +10 Hit Rating
Rigid King's Amber +20 Hit

The first way doesn't make sense and is a waste and is mentioned only for full disclosure. The second method is exactly the same as if you were to gem the route I suggested with Vivid Eye of Zul and you might as well go ahead and do that. So really the last option is the only way to go if you gem Relentless Earthseige Diamond. Ok so where are you going to put it?

Three possiblities:
1) Red Socket
2) Yellow Socket
3) Blue Socket

If you put Etched Ametrine in a Yellow Socket you will miss out on +10 Critical Strike Rating from not socketing Inscribed Ametrine. Now what will go in the blue socket? Anything else you need, primarily Strength and Armor Penetration. But this means you will lose out on the socket bonus of 6 Strength which when fully buffed with GBoS and GBoK will equate to 7.2 Strength. If you put Etched Ametrine in a Blue Socket you will only miss out on the socket bonus of 6 Strength which when fully buffed with GBoS and GBoK will equate to 7.2 Strength. So it seems the wiser choice would be to put Etched Ametrine in the Blue Socket.

Summation
We have seen that you will have to gem for Hit Rating. We have seen that Etched Ametrine and Rigid King's Amber is the best route to do this. We have seen that the only real options to put the Etched Ametrine is in a Yellow or Blue Socket. We have seen that the best place to put Etched Ametrine is in the Blue Socket. So now we can compare gains and losses between gemming for Chaotic Skyflare Diamond and Relentless Earthseige Diamond.

Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
+0.457% Critical Strike
+7.2 Strength (From meeting the second bonus of the two Blue Sockets)

Relentless Earthseige Diamond
+0.336% Critical Strike

The winner is clear, gemming Chaotic Skyflare Diamond will yeild and increase of 0.121% Critical Strike and 7.2 Strength over Relentless Earthseige Diamond. I do realize how miniscule the difference is but, the difference is there. I also realize that Relentless Earthseige Diamond may be a better choice in many different gear combinations.

Edit: Chaotic is just atleast 10dps better than relentless however you look at it

[jendah]

Chaotic is BIS meta when nighmare tear and 10arp + 15 stam in the blue slots. With BIS gear, optimal geming and + jewelcrafting gems will give you 1402 arp when going with tosks and 1400 when going with umbrage. the 10arp gem is too clutch to miss on and you get the socket bonus for another 6 unbuffed str.

this guy explains it



Edit: Chaotic is just atleast 10dps better than relentless however you look at it

That is not optimal gemming. With optimal gemming you get to exactly 1400 arp with tossks and vereesas dexterity - with tear and without +10 arp gem.
This is optimal setup imho(worked the best for me - rawr file): https://www.dropbox.com/s/03618wi6xjgc5id/fury.xml?dl=0

There are mistakes in the post you quoted about gemming - 2 regardless meta and 1 general:
1. he counts that you get socket bonus, but forgets, that you loose some str to get it.
mixed gem = 10 str + 6 str from socket bonus
full str gem = 20 str
--------------------------------------------------
you loose 4 str before talents/buff by going for chaotic

2. Agi from relentless is buffed by GBOK -> it gives slightly more crit.

(3.) He also suggests to get hit cap by gemming 1x 20 hit gem and 2 x 10 hit/10str gems -> that is also suboptimal - best way is to use 3x 10hit/10str to get all the socket bonuses possible.

Therefore Relentless meta is better.

[Pencheto]

That is not optimal gemming. With optimal gemming you get to exactly 1400 arp with tossks and vereesas dexterity - with tear and without +10 arp gem.
This is optimal setup imho(worked the best for me - rawr file): https://www.dropbox.com/s/03618wi6xjgc5id/fury.xml?dl=0

There are mistakes in the post you quoted about gemming - 2 regardless meta and 1 general:
1. he counts that you get socket bonus, but forgets, that you loose some str to get it.
mixed gem = 10 str + 6 str from socket bonus
full str gem = 20 str
--------------------------------------------------
you loose 4 str before talents/buff by going for chaotic

2. Agi from relentless is buffed by GBOK -> it gives slightly more crit.

(3.) He also suggests to get hit cap by gemming 1x 20 hit gem and 2 x 10 hit/10str gems -> that is also suboptimal - best way is to use 3x 10hit/10str to get all the socket bonuses possible.

Therefore Relentless meta is better.

I think your rawr might be edited for old 2013-2015 molten when hit/exp caps were differend and bok stacked with bos.

[Jakkre]

(3.) He also suggests to get hit cap by gemming 1x 20 hit gem and 2 x 10 hit/10str gems -> that is also suboptimal - best way is to use 3x 10hit/10str to get all the socket bonuses possible.

Why so many hit gems?
Isnt it better to use +20 hit enchant for gloves and one 10str/10hit gem?

Nvm, changing glove enchant to 44 ap and replacing two 10str/10haste with two 10str/10hit seems to give one more DPS point on landsoul, lol.

[Pencheto]

Why so many hit gems?
Isnt it better to use +20 hit enchant for gloves and one 10str/10hit gem?

it is if you are not going for engineering

[Jakkre]

it is if you are not going for engineering

Even without Eng 44 ap seems to be better than 20 hit for gloves.

[jendah]

I think your rawr might be edited for old 2013-2015 molten when hit/exp caps were differend and bok stacked with bos.

It is. How does that have any influence in meta problem? My gear setup is with 5.18% hit - 10 hit less would get me below hit cap. Expertise is capped with t10 legs and gloren. And Gbos doesnt grant agility.. (btw only edited thing in that version of rawr is option to grant minor expertise buff to offset lower expertise cap, which is still the case to my knowlege)

[Gnimo]

First thing first. Using any retail info wont matter here since this is warmane. Laws of physics are diferent here. :D
AND, lets get this out of the way, I dont belive in sims. Im sorry I just dont...

Stats when going 0 haste VS Stats when going 248 haste (7.56%)
Raid Buffs: http://imgur.com/a/T72Rk .
Without Raid buffs: http://imgur.com/a/BvQPn
1400 arp 0 haste VS 1387 arp 248 haste (Armor penetration wont make a diference in DPS since going 99% arp is as good as going 100% arp).
This is with JC + BS profesions, Without any food, Without any flask, Crusher gloves, Icewalker feet enchant and Rele meta gem. (Diference btwn Relentless and Chaotic meta gem is 0.9% crit BUT u lose 10 strength in order to activate Chaotic meta).

Edit: Ignore the weapon DMG on pic with raid buffs, on the server i test stats, Titans Grip 10% dmg reduction isnt working.

Now on topic haste vs arp gear. It doesnt matter in the end.
In short fights going more atk power and more crit should result in more DPS. In long fights going more haste should result in more DPS.
Main diference with haste vs arp gear is attack power. 1 armor penetration = 1 strength = 1.2 atk power.
U will cap soft crit ALWAYS on BIS, even if crit supresion is working (-4.8%crit chance) so u dont need any kind of crit gems or any shenanigans.
Main diference in attack power will be based on ur luck with ur procs, especialy DBW, and ur RNG with crits on ur special abilities. If they crit mainly while u dont have STS up for example u will do less DPS, its that simple.
Im not saying that u shouldnt care about ur gear, that u can just get bis, gem like a wild animal, mash buttons and do tons of DPS.
My point is that 3 items wont make a huge diference, if there is no RNG factor, when other 14 are the exactly the same.

On topic of rotation and sunder armor.
I will never, ever, EVER, understand why is it hard for warriors to do that god damn Sunder Armor. It stacks with the other warrior sunder armor. Meaning that if both of u do 1 Sunder Armor, boss will have 2/5 stacks on him. Asking a Rogue to do Expose Armor is like asking a warrior to do Sunder Armor instead of Bloodthirst. If there are 2 warriors in the raid boss should always have 5/5 Sunder Armor.
GCD rotation: BT > WW > 1sec > BT > freeGCD > 1sec > BT > WW > 1sec > BT > freeGCD > 1sec > repeat.
If u dont have instant Slam proc in that "freeGCD" part of the rotation use that ****ing Sunder Armor. It wont hurt ur DPS, it will buff the raid DPS. U dont need to be in Defencive stance to do it, u can use Sunder Armor in ANY stance, Berserking and Battle stance too.
U can also just: BT > WW > SA > BT > SA > SA > BT > WW > SA > BT > SA > Commanding Shout > ... and have 5 stacks alrdy on the boss if u are alone and keep it up constantly during the fight when u have a "freeGCD". Debuffs on the target are like raid buffs, not doing Sunder Armor on the boss is like not doing Kings as a paladin. If u dont want to lose precious DPS while u have Death Wish on dont use it, but as soon as Death Wish is over get those 5 stacks up.
On some fights its not worth stacking it since u are constantly losing it, if u are ALONE only tho. For example Lich King 25m hc phase 3. But still, if u have that free GCD and u are not doing anything else, do the damn Sunder Armor. On fights like Halion, as soon as u get in that shadow realm, get those 5 Sunder Armors up... And keep Commanding Shout up also. And Demoralizing Shout if u have Commanding Shout 3min, 5/5 25sec left and a free GCD.

[Jakkre]

Thanks for the reply but the question was actually if sunder armor produce extra threat when in fury stance.
Its obvious that its worth to use it when nobody else applys the debuff to the boss. Problem is that fury warr is the biggest threat machine of all damage dealer. Highest dmg output combined with only 10℅ threat reduction.
I steal frequently the tanks aggro, even in a icc 25 hc guild run where our tanks aren't noobs.
Now if I include sunder armor in my rotation its probably even worse.

[Gnimo]

Oh, my bad... I ussualy dont have any problems with aggro even if im lucky with crits. When tanks are bad and there is no Misdirection or Tricks, i do overaggro at some point, VoA for example, but only if i keep spamming HS like a moron. Well u can always stop using HS while u apply Sunder Armor, and as soon as u get 5/5, start spamming HS again. U can use Cleave if u have extra rage since Cleave does almost same amount of DMG but no extra Threat. U dont need HS > Instant Slam proc while building up Sunder Armor since instant Slam procs are not so usefull at that point i guess.

[Drakantas]

People using rend over sunder armor when there's no sunder armor. That alone should be enough for a guild to kick you out and message every other "endgame" guild so that they knew you're a crazy potato.

[Panofsky]

People using rend over sunder armor when there's no sunder armor. That alone should be enough for a guild to kick you out and message every other "endgame" guild so that they knew you're a crazy potato.

Oh yeah, because waiting for those 5 seconds before the warrior will start stacking sunder it's such a dps loss for the entire raid.

Both rend bleed and sunder armor debuff last as long as two round of a common warrior fury rotation so it's quite easy to refresh them in time. When you start dpsing a boss, if you don't get lucky with bloodsurge procs, you may start by using that free CD Gnymo was talking about to put rend. Then, on the second rotation round, you will use the free global CD to start stacking sunder. Doing the opposite will not buff the raid dps up to the stars, so don't get salty.