I would love to see u do it again tbh, i might learn something. Any class is a faceroll class once u get into it, but yea, beeing a god sure make things easyer...
Best of luck and have a good year aswell. :D
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Wind of Northrend
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Member
You are wasting your time here, deliberately it seems. Please keep things constructive. Don't put weak arguments saying item lvl matters when you know how good Darkmoon Card Greatness is for Retri Paladins, not to mention the Tiny Abom normal.
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Member
I'm going to have to agree with magaginho here, even as an example there is absolutely no reason to compare items between significant ilvls when they have their equivalent counter part available, like why would anyone compare a normal toc str ring to a bis agility ring?????
I completely understand what you're trying to say about the AP from agility and all that, but I just can't seem to grasp how the crit from agility will outweigh the AP from str. this is not an AP question. as the ONLY thing agility will provide you with is crit because any ANY str item will give more AP even if limiting to pure Arp items, including eof back, bracer of the heir rings and all.
Crit boosts only your melee and obliterate am going to negate FS and HB due to their high proc anyway.
seems moot to use items that will just buff these 2 while STR will buff them in addition to everything else, the AP difference between using 3agility items and str items is BIG! you keep belittling the fact by bringing AP up. but in truth it weighs much more! to be precise, back 95str,bracer102str and ring 99str= 300str....
we have bonus 4% from frost tree and 3%from UH, in addition to 10% BoK which will be available always even in a 10man. and this is excluding UA which gives a bigass 25%!!!! UA a 1mint CD that buffs our str by 25% with addition to fallen crusader 2ppm proc. just makes no sense to go agility! so far the only argument you've placed thus far is that it does better dps because it does.
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Wind of Northrend
Just fascinating...
I dont know if u cant read or u simply dont understand what point i wanted to make but fine with me...
I never compared any item A to item B, i just tryed to find the ONLY WAY posible, how u can see that having more Strength from gear wont help u do more dmg, more attack power will help. If u can find a better example please enlighten me. And from what i know Agility items have Attack Power increase in them so yea, u dont lose 100% of Attack Power u get from Strength, u lose 50% of Attack Power and u gain 100% Agility for free, WITH some EXTRA armor penetration so u have more gem slots to gem Strength. So, u get MORE STATS overall...
As far as for ur 300strength TOTAL, Im using only WRIST and RING that are not Strength Items. If u go Double Havoc and ASHEN ring u have to GEM Armor Penetration and u will LOSE STRENGTH and Attack Power in process for the sake of more Crit and useless Haste.
Now, when it comes to WRIST and RING (I will compare Toskz and Frostbrood with Heir and Zarithrians) u gain 204 Agility and 240 Attack Power. U lose 208 Strength, which is total of lets say 243 Strength Raid buffed that ends up beeing 486 Attack Power. U lose 24 Armor Penetration so u have to Gem 1 extra 20arp gem which makes ur total Attack Power gained from Strength (222str) exactly 444 Attack Power. 444 - 240 = 204 Attack Power Lost overall. 204 Agility is equal to somewhere arround 3.26% Crit (62.5 Agility = 1% Crit). With this u can lose 1 point in Subversion and get 3/3 BCB.
"Crit boosts only your melee and obliterate" Fun fact: Melee Crit = 200% of normal DMG, Obliterate Crit = 245% of normal DMG. Whoever says that Crit is not important on Death Knights especialy Frost, doesnt know **** about FDK. Ur Melee and Obliterate alone deal arround of 70% of ur TOTAL DMG DONE, so i guess buffing those 2 would be a smart thing to do.
I dont know what makes FDKs so SPECIAL when it comes to Strength Items. Both Ret Paladins and Fury Warriors gain WAY MORE PASSIVE STRENGTH and yet both of those classes go for atleast 2-4 Agility Items.
Do whatever u want to do, go full Strength itemisation, dont spec Blood Caked Blade, whatever u want to do, i dont care, i realy dont give a single... Just dont expect me to agree with u on something i tryed out myself. If u NEVER did try this itemisation and talents, i rly dont see why and how can u talk about it at all.
P.S. I really dont have anything to hide, nor i give a damn if im right or wrong, my only reason posting here is to try and help the new players, anyone actualy that wants to improve while constantly questioning myself, cos i want to improve aswell. I posted multiple pictures of my DPS, of my itemisation, of my spec. So far i didnt see a SINGLE ONE posting anything like that exept me, part from long texts about how wrong i am, and yet, somehow im making my arguments based on wind and magical horses while ur arguments are solid as rocks. U can also post both ur itemisation with the stats u have, and Recounts where u did arround 1.5-2mil dmg after which we can compare the two and see which one is better...
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Member
1) Haste != useless
2) Dps pics accounting for just 1.5-2m damage are hardly noteworthy. If you actually want to compare builds (in a non-biased manner) you need to use a sim as a human is simply not capable of providing hundreds of hours (or more) worth of data in order for people to compare.Edited: January 1, 2017
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Wind of Northrend
@Rifokelt
1) Can u explain it to me how is Haste any good?
We are talking about 23haste from Cloak Enchant (24 Agility which is arround 0.4% crit is still better than 0.01 faster wep swing from my point of view), Haste from 2nd Havoc can be replaced with Armor Penetration and Aldrianas gloves can be replaced with Gatecrasher Strength gloves, and on top of that, u need 20haste to reduce the attack speed of ur weapon by 0.01sec, while 20crit rating is always 0.44% crit chance (10 = 0.22%).
With 0.01 speed decrease every 150 Hit is an EXTRA hit, while with Crit % increase u get closer to Soft Crit cap, the closer u are, the less normal hits u do. Crit = 200% of normal hit. So u will ALWAYS benifit from crit when it comes to Melee hits no matter how much u do...
2) If u provide me with a Sim that has Warmane Scripts i will say ok lets go... But even so, i still dont belive in that stuff. I dont know why tbh.
On top of that if u have free time u could spend couple of Hours on a Dummy testing stuff urself. Thats what i did and i still do sometimes and it always worked out well for me.
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Member
1) Try using Kahories and running EP values. Haste simply outscales agility, there's really nothing else to it. If you don't want to use it that's fine, I mean I don't particularly care what you'll be doing, but don't tell people haste is useless.
2) This should barely matter as most things regarding frost are already fixed. There might be some dps discrepancy between the sim and actually doing dps in a raid environment but it will be barely noticable. As for your lack of trust, I used to be the same way until I started using it. Now I consider it a lot more reliable than my own reasonings on the class.
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Wind of Northrend
BiS Frost Death Knight lists from retail tells me to go Rotface Cloak (Winding Sheets) and Double Havoc.
Unholy Death Knight BiS list also has DBW instead of WFS and Might of Blight instead of Signet of Twilight.
U could get better stats from diferent itemisation than from those lists...
Im sorry i simply wont belive what someone said before trying it out myself. Even if i cant test it with 100% accurate data, i still cant see how can a 0.01 faster swing is better than 0.4% crit. On top of that only 33% of total DMG done gets buffed with that haste while crit buffs 93% of total DMG done by u... Unless someone explains to me and prove me wrong with logic and arguments i will still talk about haste as a useless stat, cos it can be replaced with something better (all of it exept the one from Havoc in ur main hand).
Well i guess i will have to try it out. I might end up doin the same thing as u did... :D
Any link with which i can download that stuff?
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Member
I've linked it in the first page of this thread.
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Member
25% str proc from UA and weapon enchant makes str almost 3x better than AP (2.87~ for my gear in ToC) while it's only 2.3x for paladins and warriors. Paladins have better agi/crit ratio than warr/dk+ crit buffs all their dmg, not 50% of it, warriors have Deep Wounds and more rage from crits. So yeah.. dks are special when it comes to using str items.
15 haste gives me 0.01 faster swing, so 23 should give more, haste buffs you Auto attack, BCB and necrosis, gets buffed with Icy Talons, gives more KM procs, dmg buffed by crit is nowhere near to 93% total. Yes, haste is bad stat, but crit is simply worse. Btw, Kahorie sim says that even 15 haste > 22 agi in my gear lvlEdited: January 2, 2017
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Dks are not pala or retri, not even close! they do not have a talent that procs a 100% crit on 2 of their skills nor a passive 12% crit increase to their strongest skill.
ok numbers something we can deal with! so you gain 3.26% crit from agility while losing 1point from subversion to bcb...
in other words you just traded 222str for .26% crit for your strongest ability.
and as for melee, if we're talking about melee damage even haste buffs it more than crit!
and again with the ad hominem attacks, ok fine that you don't care what other dks do. but when they post their opinions don't come barking and calling them ill infomed just because they disagreed. not for one second did I doubt you so please keep the discussion civilizedEdited: January 2, 2017
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Member
From my Experience this is what i can tell you, there's 2 types of frost dk builds which are the best 1: Arp Str spec, 2: Arp with agi offset, Difference between the 2 is str bursts faster and 20-30% more, and agility holds the dps longer, in the end its the same.
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Member
That is kinda wrong, a str build will always hold out in dps in the long run, you simple can't overlook how much str boosts ur Obliterate/Frost strike damage and the rest of your skills.
Your obliterates will still do 60-80% crit overall, it is all about rng, even if you are running a full str build. Going for extra crit from agility is useless unless it is absolutely necessary in the build you are using. Talent's provide all the crit you need, the only thing agility does is slightly boost your white damage(not even going to mention the damage loss from ap loss).
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Member
Dude i did like 9 milion tests with EVERY possible combination of items/gear, me and Rifokelt did this a while back, and in the end its the same dps, I tried every like LITERALY every possible build and combination that u can use. You end up arround 9.0-9.7k constant dps on dummy till 2 milion damage, or overall 20k - 21k in Icc.
PS if u have above 1360 arp , don't count yourselves as Elites, this is to all ppl that play Arpen based Char/class/spec. Those who know what im talkin about, also know that his is like 500-1k dps increase in Raids.Edited: January 2, 2017
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Member
that's true, at that point in gear 1item will be barley noticeable, as the major contributor will be ur proc rng. I'll also like to add that dummy testing even thou the 2nd best option one can get, is still not as accurate as testing the million builds on raids.
I don't see a reason into why the agility offset will pull more sustain whatsoever
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