Frost DK Dps questions

[Shorttemper]

Since there's no Frost DK resource atm i'll have to ask my questions like this.
1) I see people dropping some points from Black Ice and putting them in Blood Caked Blade. Is it worth it?
2) Is Toskk HC BiS or Polar Bear Claw Bracers HC?
3) If Toskk HC is BiS why? Solely because of ArP? Won't we get more Str overall with Polar Bear + Blood Caked Stompers?
4) Whats the Stat prio like. I know ArP > Str but then is it crit or haste? What Back Enchant would it be?
5) 2x Rune of the Fallen Crusader vs 1 Rune of the Fallen Crusader + 1 Rune of Razorice - Which is better?
6) Is 2x Havoc the BiS? If so are we getting enuf Hit from our gear to cap 5%?
7) Do Frost Dks even go for 5% hit or a little higher seeing that we regularly use Pestilence to refresh DoTs and Icy Touch at the beginning.
8) I saw a person dropping points from Icy Talons to put points in Blood Caked Blade. Is this sane behavior?

Note: If I get too many conflicting opinions the ones with the best logic wins :D. TY

[verminslayer]

1. No, BCB is a pretty average talent for frost due to the fact 1h damage is quite low, 1point of bcb equates to roughly .6-1% of your total dps.
2. Depends on set up, Fdks have many items that can fit offparts, just make sure you are Expertise Capped, Hit capped and Arp capped. You can go for RS10hc plate wrists, Tossk's or polar's depending on what the rest of your gear is.
3. see above.
4. Expertise, Hit and arp, 26, 170-262 hit(this will depend if you want to miss pestilences more often or not), and 1400 arp obviously. Having anywhere between 30%-35% crit unbuffed is fine. We are talking about bis here.
5. FC+razorice, there is no substitute.
6. 2xhavoc is bis, especially for orcs, 2xbvb for humans follows closely, you can go 1 havocs and 1 bvb as well, because bvb provides hit +arp at the cost of lower weapon damage.
7. see 4
8. Never

[Beanlord]

https://code.google.com/archive/p/dksimulator/downloads

I'd advise downloading the first link and using that to answer your various questions. It won't be opinionated and will return correct dps values once set up (it's not hard to do that either).

[Gnimo]

I will be talking mostly from the end game perspective.
1. Yes its worth. Whoever tells u its not, never tryed to take that talent.
2. From my point of view BIS wrist for FDK is Toskz, u can also get Bracers of the Heir from RS 10m hc if u want more atk power, but i wouldnt suggest doin that.
3. Feet from Ruby Sanctum, aka Apocalypse's Advance, give u the hit u need and far more Strength than Blood Caked Stompers. So the best option for u is to get wrist with armor penetration on it.
4. Considering u are Hit and Expertise capped and that u reached 1386+ armor penetration stat prio is this: Strength, Crit, Haste.
Reason:
Attack power from Strength will buff every attack u do,
when u Crit ur main abilities (Obliterate, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Blood Strike) deal 245% of ur normal DMG while ur melee dmg is equal to 200% of normal when it crits,
Haste on the other hand buffs ONLY ur melee dmg, just by making u hit faster. Haste gets diminished while crit doesnt, crit will always be like double normal hit, and u can never get that much Haste for it to make a huge diference in ur DPS.
This is just my prio list, u may disagree, but this is something ive learned over the time ive been playing my DK.
5. Fallen Crusader + Razorice. U can put them as u please, some ppl say FC procs more when its in main hand, some ppl like that 5-10 extra dmg per hit from Razorice if u put it in main hand.
6. From my point of view double Havoc is bad for u. Havoc MH Bloodvenom OH.
Reason:
Bloodvenom Blade gives u Hit and Armor Penetration.
81hit from feet + 52hit from BVB + 12hit from Icewalker + 2x 10str10hit gems = 165 hit rating (5.03%). This will alow u to go DOUBLE armor penetration ring (Might of Blight + Frostbrood Sapphire Ring, or Zarithrian's Offering) and gain more Attack Power overall that will buff ur MAIN HAND DMG, more than u will lose from switching from Havoc to Bloodvenom in OFF HAND DMG. So u basicly gain more combined DMG.
7. When it comes to caps, u need 26 expertise AND only 5% hit chance + 3% hit chance from talents (total of 8% melee hit). Unless u can get spell hit capped u will miss pestilence based on RNG regardless of how many extra hit u have from 5% melee to spell hit cap AND on top of that there is RESIST part of that spell which u can NEVER avoid, its all up to RNG anyway. Going for Spell Hit Cap will result in a DPS decrease overall cos u will have to lose eather Armor Penetration/Strength or Crit in order to get more hit.
8. Only talents u should sacrifice for Blood Caked Blade are Subversion and Black Ice. Explanation below...

Now lets talk about Blood Caked Blade.
This talent is only worth going when u are Armor Penetration Capped, aka 1386-1400. In that range, the closer u are to 1386 number is better.

http://imgur.com/a/VMJYD
This is a dps run i did just now on a dummy.
Gear used for it: http://imgur.com/a/Q1EcN 1391 armor pen
Profesions: BS + JC
DBW procs: Nothing for first 50sec of the fight for some reason > Haste > Crit
Talents used for it: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jzZG...zf0cuzAofM0hxc

As u can see BCB has 3.2% of total dmg done. Lets compare that talent to Subversion and Black Ice.
I did arround 690000 dmg that would be buffed with Black Ice. We have 3 points in BCB so that means i could buff that dmg by 6% total. 6% out of 690000dmg is 41400dmg. Blood Caked Blade did 71832dmg. If u put 2 talents from BCB to Subversion i would get 6% more crit. Lets say 6% more of my Obliterates and Blood Strike hits wer crits. That would result in 43050 more dmg from extra Obli crits and 3500 more dmg from BS crits total of 46550dmg. Again, not even close to BCB dmg.
Now, lets have 1 thing in mind. Melee hits will ALWAYS HAPPEN, no matter what u do with ur spells, in what order u cast them, how much u **** up when it comes to rotation, nothing will prevent melee hits from happening (wont count complete stop of dps cos in that case u wont be able to do Oblis, FSs, and most of ur spells). So, Blood Caked Blade will do 3% of ur total dmg ALWAYS. Sometimes less 2.5%, sometimes more 4.5%. But it will always be arround 30% of ur total successfull melee hits.
When u have those last 3 talent points left, and u got the main talents in frost and unholy tree, Blood Caked Blade is by far BEST talent u can get in order to increase ur DPS.
When it comes to gear, Toskk's Maximized Wristguards VS Bracers of the Heir, or, Frostbrood Sapphire Ring VS Zarithrian's Offering, it all comes to RNG. Sometimes Agility items will end up doin more DPS, sometimes Strenght items will end up doin more DPS. I personaly like goin for that extra crit from Toskz and Frostbrood mainly cos i only use 1/3 Subversion.
About double armor pen gear, i simply dont like Ashen ring. Sometimes it just procs in bad time. But even so, lets say that the proc is worth 100 passive atk power (considering u fully use those 10sec every time) double armor pen ring with Bloodvenom will end up giving u more DMG, mainly cos Havoc gives Haste. I consider Haste a **** stat for FDK. As explained it only buffs melee white hits, and not by much tbh. Some might say that it also buffs Necrosis and BcB if u have it, but in the end, Haste on how i see it, is still a **** stat.

[Shorttemper]

ty for the detailed responses ^^.

[verminslayer]

@gnimo again it depends on the set up, you went for agility offparts to counteract the crit loss from subversion, but im 100% sure your obliterates hit less hard than using str offparts. You must have really good tanks not to pull agro. i havent tried bcb with agility set up and i might give it a go. but ive always found subversion works best with a full str set up.

With the haste thing, i have to disagree, haste is not completely useless, you want to lower ur gcd as close to 1sec without gemming or gearing(besides havocs for obvious reasons) for it, more haste = more spam.

[Gnimo]

@verminslayer

I dont know if im living in my own world but as far as i know Strength does not increase ur DMG. Attack Power does.
U can have 100 strength and 100k attack power and with that do more dmg than with 100k strength and 100 attack power (i know this isnt posible, just trying to make a point). Get Ulduar Strength Gear and ICC Agility gear and see urself. If u have more Attack Power with full Agil gear u will end up doin more DMG with ur abilities.

Strength alone increases ur Attack Power that increases ur DMG. So, going some agility parts like Wrist and Ring, wont hurt ur dps if they give u solid amount of attack power. It will improve it. Only downside for going Agi is this: UA is worth less, since it gives u % of Strength based on total Strength u have. But that is also nothing compared to what u get in return.

U have my recount on that dummy, i did 118 Obliterates with avrg of 9671dmg, compare that with ur own and see if im wrong. If i am please link it so i can change some things aswell...
Going full Strength build, how i see it, is same like going to a Gym and always skipping legs day. U need to balance all the stats in order to maxim

As far as HASTE goes,
it DOES NOT decrease GCD of: Obliterate, Frost Strike, Blood Strike, Plague Strike...
it DOES decrease GCD of: Howling Blast, Icy Touch, Pestilence, Death Coil...

Lets say ur rotation is this:
Pesti > BS > FS > Obli > Obli > Obli > FS > FS > Obli > Obli > repeat

So, u are going HASTE in order to decrease GCD of Pesti alone? Waste of stat as i see it... On top of that, even if u had 50% haste, u couldnt push any more spells in since u are on a timer, if u do 1 more ability u simply wont make it on time to refresh Diseases. And even if u could, it could only be eather a Death Coil or Howling Blast from Rime proc, which could also **** u over if u had a little lag spike or a fps drop. On top of top of that u have limited Resources and u simply cant do MORE anyway, unless u get 2 Rime procs every rotation.

How it really works, u can NEVER reach a % of haste that will actualy make that GCD reduction noticable. I tryed going 10% Haste and it didnt work well...

Only reason Unholy DKs go for some Haste, part from buffing their top DMG thing which is Melee, is cos it buffs their Pets and u do spam more SPELLS (Death Coil) so u could use any GCD decrease u can get. Even with that Haste they cant do "more spam" as u said it cos they are limited with resources. U simply cant get more Runes nor Runic Power with which u could get some use of that extra Haste.

Haste u get from 2x Havocs + Aldrianas gloves + 23 haste cloak enchant wont make any diference whatsoever, nor it will decrease ur GCD by any amount that will make u spam more spells. While on the other hand u can trade that Haste for more Crit and Attack Power that will make a diference.
From what i know and from what i tested on Warmane, Haste ONLY increases the amount of white swings u do, nothing else.

Edit:
Couple of more DPS atempts on a dummy, http://imgur.com/a/5Luu7 .
On the bottom one did 10k Burst. Crit and Haste DBW procs.
On the top one did 12k Burst. Haste and Crit DBW procs.
Even tho i missed that Pestilence, i maintained the DPS untill i got back into Obli FS spam cos i got couple of lucky BCB hits in a row at that time. And as u can see, BCB can sometime do more than 10% of ur Obliterate DMG which is insane for 3 talent points...

[verminslayer]

What i was trying to say was going agility means ur obliterates hits less hard, but it makes up by having ur auto attacks crit more including BCB. Never said anything about impacting on ur overall damage, it might even be higher overall dmg, still havent tested it yet my self.

just did i a test on a dummy in ebon hold, max obliterate was 15.8k, average 9.7, min 5.8, 92 obliterates. full str set up,, using sindy legs and t10 gloves

more str = more attack power is what i meant.

[Mercy]

@verminslayer

I dont know if im living in my own world but as far as i know Strength does not increase ur DMG. Attack Power does.
U can have 100 strength and 100k attack power and with that do more dmg than with 100k strength and 100 attack power (i know this isnt posible, just trying to make a point). Get Ulduar Strength Gear and ICC Agility gear and see urself. If u have more Attack Power with full Agil gear u will end up doin more DMG with ur abilities.

Strength alone increases ur Attack Power that increases ur DMG. So, going some agility parts like Wrist and Ring, wont hurt ur dps if they give u solid amount of attack power. It will improve it. Only downside for going Agi is this: UA is worth less, since it gives u % of Strength based on total Strength u have. But that is also nothing compared to what u get in return.

U have my recount on that dummy, i did 118 Obliterates with avrg of 9671dmg, compare that with ur own and see if im wrong. If i am please link it so i can change some things aswell...
Going full Strength build, how i see it, is same like going to a Gym and always skipping legs day. U need to balance all the stats in order to maxim

Sometimes the itemization of agility items just happens to be superior to whatever strength item would normally be best in that particular slot. That is why the agility item would be better. It's best to compare the items as a whole, rather than comparing AP to STR, because if you just compare AP to STR, STR will almost always win because of how it's budgeted and how it scales. On paper, 1 STR = 2 AP, but STR also has multipliers, which further increases the gain of AP from STR. Blessing of Kings is an example.

What i was trying to say was going agility means ur obliterates hits less hard, but it makes up by having ur auto attacks crit more including BCB. Never said anything about impacting on ur overall damage, it might even be higher overall dmg, still havent tested it yet my self.

just did i a test on a dummy in ebon hold, max obliterate was 15.8k, average 9.7, min 5.8, 92 obliterates. full str set up,, using sindy legs and t10 gloves

more str = more attack power is what i meant.

Agility also gives you melee crit rating, which also benefits Obliterate.

[Gnimo]

@Mercy
I know how things work, it was just an Example and me trying to say that its not Strength that dictates ur Obliterate DMG, its Attack Power.
And i do know that u get Attack Power from Strength and that Strength is the best stat to go for if u want more Attack Power, BUT, if u go Naxx 10m Items and end up having 1500Strength and lets say 3000Attack Power, u wont do more Overall DMG with abilities compared to full ICC Agility gear with which u will end up having 500Strength and 4000Attack Power for Example. That was the whole point...
On the topic of looking item as a whole, that is the EXACT reason why i consider Toskz to be BIS Wrist without equal, and Frostbrood to be slightly better than Zarithrians Offering.

[magaginho]

@Mercy
I know how things work, it was just an Example and me trying to say that its not Strength that dictates ur Obliterate DMG, its Attack Power.
And i do know that u get Attack Power from Strength and that Strength is the best stat to go for if u want more Attack Power, BUT, if u go Naxx 10m Items and end up having 1500Strength and lets say 3000Attack Power, u wont do more Overall DMG with abilities compared to full ICC Agility gear with which u will end up having 500Strength and 4000Attack Power for Example. That was the whole point...

You're also comparing an item level difference of 51, 64, 72 or even 84. That's common sense, jesus christ. C'mon now. Should we just starting comparing WOTLK items to Legion items as well? The need of being right is huge isn't it?

[Gnimo]

You're also comparing an item level difference of 51, 64, 72 or even 82. That's common sense, jesus christ. C'mon now. Should we just starting comparing WOTLK items to Legion items as well? The need of being right is huge isn't it?

Dear Megaginho.

Im sorry but i have no intention in talking about logic and common sense with u.

No hard feelings i just dont see u as someone who knows anything about the game, and most importantly as someone who can have a normal discussion with anyone. Especialy with ppl that dont agree with u. Debating stuff with Mercy is fun from time to time, and it could actualy result in me trying out something new (it doesnt matter if it works or not) but with u... I dont see that happening.

I said it 5 times: IM TRYING TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE, READ, EXAMPLE, ON HOW STRENGHT DOES NOT DICTATE UR DMG, ATTACK POWER DOES.
So, if u lose Strength (From Plate items) and gain some Attack Power, more Crit and Armor Penetration (From Agility items) in return u wont lose any DPS.

I can draw it for u if u want me to... I got quite nice paint skills.

If u can find a better way to prove that ingame please do, cos as far as i know, using ICC items with Strength will always result in having more Attack Power.

P.S. Do u even have a DK? Did u even play a DK? Did u play that DK in ICC on LK for example? Do u even know how a DK looks like?
Im sorry, i just dont like u at all. No hard feelings... There are only few ppl in game and in my life i dont like, so i guess u can feel speshul.

[magaginho]

No hard feelings i just dont see u as someone who knows anything about the game, and most importantly as someone who can have a normal discussion with anyone. Especialy with ppl that dont agree with u. Debating stuff with Mercy is fun from time to time, and it could actualy result in me trying out something new (it doesnt matter if it works or not) but with u... I dont see that happening.

Good. At least someone is delivering some common sense to your two cents. That can only be good for you, right?

I said it 5 times: IM TRYING TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE, READ, EXAMPLE, ON HOW STRENGHT DOES NOT DICTATE UR DMG, ATTACK POWER DOES.
So, if u lose Strength (From Plate items) and gain some Attack Power, more Crit and Armor Penetration (From Agility items) in return u wont lose any DPS.

I only mentioned that your comparison between an outdated gear to a maximum obtainable gear in the content that we're talking about makes no sense whatsoever. I guess that bringing logic to a conversation doesn't please everyone. I'm used to that. There's no need to be so defensive or personal.

I can draw it for u if u want me to... I got quite nice paint skills.

If u can find a better way to prove that ingame please do, cos as far as i know, using ICC items with Strength will always result in having more Attack Power.

P.S. Do u even have a DK? Did u even play a DK? Did u play that DK in ICC on LK for example? Do u even know how a DK looks like?
Im sorry, i just dont like u at all. No hard feelings... There are only few ppl in game and in my life i dont like, so i guess u can feel speshul.

I guess that if anything goes wrong you can spend your time being the next Van Gogh then. That's good!
Regarding me having a Death Knight? Yes, I do have one. A Dual-Wield Frost Death Knight tank. Tanked Lich King with it, multiple times, never had an issue with my knowledgment and I've never had issues with people questioning my builds since they're, most of the times, on point. As for you not liking me? You're just another one but please make sure you leave a signature in my book on the way out.

[Gnimo]

It must be fun beeing a god in ur own reality. Hope when u wake up it wont be painfull, but i doubt u ever will... :D
I guess there is no point in u posting in here since its a DPS question and u only have a DK TANK. Shame...

[magaginho]

It must be fun beeing a god in ur own reality. Hope when u wake up it wont be painfull, but i doubt u ever will... :D
I guess there is no point in u posting in here since its a DPS question and u only have a DK TANK. Shame...

Don't want to burst your bubble there but I have indeed played as a Frost DPS DK in the past, however, I consider the class so faceroll that it doesn't require an in-depth explanation around it. Wasting time theorycrafting something that I can get out of a one second google search seems just out of context for me. Then again, some people like to theorycraft what was already theorycrafted. Enjoy your "own reality" I guess.

I'm not going to sit here and discuss this semantic with you. You're just trying to expose your need of being right. Have a good year, bud.