1. I was mistaken to compare Paladin with DK and Warrior since Paladins do get more crit rating out of agility. So lets get that out of the way...

    Warriors have 20% Passive Increased Strength from talents. 100% Uptime, no ppm, just solid Strength.
    DKs have 7% Passive from talents and 15% from Fallen Crusader enchant and 20% from Unbreakable Armor. 40sec downtime on UA, 2 ppm on FC.

    Warriors have passive 56% crit chance (with 4 agility items).
    DKs have passive 33% crit chance (If u dont use a SINGLE agility item) and Talents that Increase crit chance of Obliterate by 18% + 3-9% depending on how much points u put in Subversion.

    Warrior Crit DMG is equal to somewhere arround 220% of normal dmg (im not 100% sure about this, i just took avrg numbers and calculated the %).
    Dk Crit DMG is equal to somewhere arround 200-245% of normal dmg, depending which ability are we looking at.

    When it comes to Haste, i can say i was WRONG, my calculations wer wrong, on top of that i did not took into account the offhand hit aswell, so u basicly get 2 Extra hits every 54th attack if u get 53 haste rating (0.03sec faster swing) instead of 1.03% Crit when it comes to melee hits.
    So, going Haste Cloak enchant and couple of 10str 10haste gems could increase ur DPS. Thanks for helping me realise that...

    Crit buffs - 39% Obliterate, 25% Melee, 3% Blood Strike, 5% Necrosis, 15% Frost Strike, 3% Howling Blast = Total of 90% Posible DMG increase.
    Haste buffs - 25% Melee, 5% Necrosis, 3% BCB = Titak if 33% Posible DMG increase.

    I count in both FS and HB since u wont ALWAYS have KM up, especialy if u dont have 5/5. U cant say it doesnt count cos its still even a minor buff is still a buff.

    1 point less in Subversion = 1 point more in Blood Caked Blade = 1% Total DMG increase.
    Its not that u gain only 0.26% crit. And on top of that u dont have to lose 222 Strength in order to increase crit %, u can go 1/3 Subversion with full Strength build, i only said i like replacing the crit i lose from Subversion with Agility items.

    When it comes to item diference on BIS list, 2 items could make a solid diference especialy when it comes to Wrist and Ring Agy vs Strength.

    About beeing civilised, i dont see how i said anything bad to anyone exept Megaginho, and i alrdy explained why i see him as someone who cant say anything when it comes to FDK, and from what i know and from what i saw, he based everything he knows from how RETAIL used to work years ago, and from what he read on google.

    And when it comes to "ok numbers something we can deal with!" feel free to do this:
    Go FDK DPS Spec, Print Screen.
    Equip FDK DPS Gear, Open Character Info, Print Screen.
    DPS the dummy for 3-5minutes, Open Recount / Skada, Print Screen.
    Crop them with Paint, Open Imgur.com, put them there, post here.
    Than we can talk and have something we can deal with.

    Again, thx for making me realise Haste can be usefull, might end up going for that 53 rating after all...
    When it comes to any future discussions, post some pics before talking.
    Best of Luck.

  2. I was mistaken to compare Paladin with DK and Warrior since Paladins do get more crit rating out of agility. So lets get that out of the way...

    Warriors have 20% Passive Increased Strength from talents. 100% Uptime, no ppm, just solid Strength.
    DKs have 7% Passive from talents and 15% from Fallen Crusader enchant and 20% from Unbreakable Armor. 40sec downtime on UA, 2 ppm on FC.
    ^exactly! aside improved berserker stance they have no str proc nor cd.

    Warriors have passive 56% crit chance (with 4 agility items).
    DKs have passive 33% crit chance (If u dont use a SINGLE agility item) and Talents that Increase crit chance of Obliterate by 18% + 3-9% depending on how much points u put in Subversion.
    yes warr 56% with the 5%, dks 38% with it, this isn't a dungeon group





    Crit buffs - 39% Obliterate, 25% Melee, 3% Blood Strike, 5% Necrosis, 15% Frost Strike, 3% Howling Blast = Total of 90% Posible DMG increase.
    Haste buffs - 25% Melee, 5% Necrosis, 3% BCB = Titak if 33% Posible DMG increase.
    and really using crit buff on 15%FS and 3%HB is laugahble, FS&HB should be 90%+ crit. so ur buffing less than 10% of their damage. if you want to count them in, then count that 10% hit.....
    str buffs= 100% of total damage

    1 point less in Subversion = 1 point more in Blood Caked Blade = 1% Total DMG increase.
    Its not that u gain only 0.26% crit. And on top of that u dont have to lose 222 Strength in order to increase crit %, u can go 1/3 Subversion with full Strength build, i only said i like replacing the crit i lose from Subversion with Agility items.
    I honestly didn't get what you're trying to say here

    When it comes to item diference on BIS list, 2 items could make a solid diference especialy when it comes to Wrist and Ring Agy vs Strength.
    9k dps is the what most fdks do for dummy so I don't see any solid difference. and str will scale better in raid setup anyway

    And when it comes to "ok numbers something we can deal with!" feel free to do this:
    Go FDK DPS Spec, Print Screen.
    Equip FDK DPS Gear, Open Character Info, Print Screen.
    DPS the dummy for 3-5minutes, Open Recount / Skada, Print Screen.
    Crop them with Paint, Open Imgur.com, put them there, post here.
    Than we can talk and have something we can deal with.
    .
    Nope, am not playing frost atm and even if I were I won't spec and show a 9k dps recount dmg. meas nothing. I expect any bis fdk to be doing 9kish

    Again, thx for making me realise Haste can be usefull, might end up going for that 53 rating after all...
    When it comes to any future discussions, post some pics before talking.
    Best of Luck.
    again with the childish remarks, post pics before talking? jeez man you need to understand this is not an attack on you but a discussion on str vs agility.
    Just so you know I won't be responding any further to any future posts as apparently only any disagreement with you is unproductive. Best of luck

  3. I never took this as an attack, again, i do this mainly to question myself while trying to help out someone so i can try and improve aswell, and im glad i got something out of it that will improve my dps (43haste rating), even if its only 0.0001% increase... Im not the smartest guy alive, nor am i all knowing, everyone make mistakes. I dont care who is right or wrong aslong as someone gets something out of the discussion.

    Pic posting thing... The point i wanted to make is simply that whenever i linked anything, someone had something to say about it without anything to back it up. I dont care about DPS on a dummy or in raid, its pure RNG when it comes to end game gear. Again, im 99% confident in whatever i do. If u get lucky on Obli crits u can do 10k+ DPS, if u get unlucky and on top u do 35% Glancing Hits u will do 8k DPS, i know that, but, u cant just trow comments about how itemisation A is bad cos of Reasons without providing a better way to do it... Perfect example: Double Havoc VS Havoc + BVB. On top of that, If u link any kind of itemisation with 10 ppl looking at it, someone can come to an idea to suggest something that can improve it. If not, others can copy or modify it for themselves it and get something out of it.

  4. Dude i did like 9 milion tests with EVERY possible combination of items/gear, me and Rifokelt did this a while back, and in the end its the same dps, I tried every like LITERALY every possible build and combination that u can use. You end up arround 9.0-9.7k constant dps on dummy till 2 milion damage, or overall 20k - 21k in Icc.

    PS if u have above 1360 arp , don't count yourselves as Elites, this is to all ppl that play Arpen based Char/class/spec. Those who know what im talkin about, also know that his is like 500-1k dps increase in Raids.
    I don't care how many times u tested it on a dummy, str > agility in any raid enviroment, always. i can guarantee ill out dps on ANY encounter using a full str set up.

  5. @trm90

    I don't care how many times u tested it on a dummy, str > agility in any raid enviroment, always. i can guarantee ill out dps on ANY encounter using a full str set up.
    This is the exact thing im talking about... Sorry Verminslayer i got nothing against u, im just using this as an example. I know u are a nice guy. :D

    Now lets see...
    This is the itemisation Vermin posted 4 weeks ago on my "guide" post, full strength itemisation.
    http://imgur.com/a/x5Gbf

    This is the itemisation i posted here with 2 agility items in it.
    http://imgur.com/a/wsCF0

    The only diference in his Itemisation, from the one he posted, is more Haste from cloak enchant (he has tailoring which wont be relevant here when comparing the itemisation builds, nor will haste but i was too lazy to add a new cloak without it after i realised what i did).
    Both itemisations had no profesions, and wer diferent in 2 things only: i used Engi Gloves and Nitro Boots on his in order to match the stats better, for mine i had 15expertise on Gloves and Icewalker on Boots.

    I know that he has passive Ashen ring proc in that itemisation while i dont, but from my point of view Ashen is overated on FDK since the proc is 10sec only and if it occurs when u have to apply diseases, refresh them, dont have runic power for FSs, have to stop DPS or switch targets and run, its not fully used, while passive Strength is always there.

    As u can see there is only 104 strength diference when it comes to unbuffed state.
    Full strength DK has more attack power only after using UA, and only by 28 attack power.
    UA is 20% Strenght. FC is 15% Strength so dont bother saying how u will get even MORE with this one. If the diference was 28atk power with 20% Strength, adding 15% more wont result in HUGE attack power increase, its gona be arround 40 attack power more in favor of Strength Build. This is ONLY with UA + FC combined, so its not a passive thing.
    Without UA the itemisation i posted has more passive crit (4.22%) and little bit attack power (24atk power).

    This is all with my talent points i linked in previous comments here.

    Since he is overcapped with hit, he can improve the build by using RS 10m hc armor pen ring and get arround 60 more passive Strength for the cos of Ashen ring Proc. For Full Strength Build i would use this itemisation: http://imgur.com/a/ztG1y (as Orc id simply just transfer Expertise gems, enchants into strength, attack power and leave it like that: http://imgur.com/a/DsCV2) with JC + BS profesions getting passive 82 Strength (arround 90 raid buffed).

    But still, this is the main reason why and what i wanted u to post. So i can compare things, maybe get a new idea to improve any of the itemisations linked, maybe even mine, and to try and get in a discussion and question if im wrong when i say Ashen ring proc is overated.

    Again, Verminslayer, sorry if i offended u in any way, it wasnt my intention, just used this as an example, the whole purpose of this is to compare the 2 itemisations, nothing else...

  6. Stat wise the ashen ring is pretty average, the only reason i get it is because of the hit and the proc which is basically rng. I actually wouldn't mind going double arp rings to increase str but missing pestilences is basically losing 500-1k dps. So it is more of a play style/rng choice.

    If you want the best stats there is no doubt you should go for bs/jc or better procs engi/tailor or even the combination of either 2 of them as u wish.

  7. I don't care how many times u tested it on a dummy, str > agility in any raid enviroment, always. i can guarantee ill out dps on ANY encounter using a full str set up.
    Well FYI, i have 3 bis Dk's with multiple gear setups, and all my tests happened in raid, not on a dummy. I was doing 3 raids a week with Frost DK only. K sir?
    3 25HC with a DK for .. hmm 9 months? how many runs is that with a frost dk? You really think i have missed something?? If you think so , lets do a raid and i'll prove you wrong.

  8. Well FYI, i have 3 bis Dk's with multiple gear setups, and all my tests happened in raid, not on a dummy. I was doing 3 raids a week with Frost DK only. K sir?
    3 25HC with a DK for .. hmm 9 months? how many runs is that with a frost dk? You really think i have missed something?? If you think so , lets do a raid and i'll prove you wrong.
    So now you've changed your 'tests' to a raid enviroment, 9 months with 3 bis frost dk's, did you actually donate for all 3? Unless you are saying you geared it up during that time then i highly doubt you've done as many tests as you've had in BiS gear.

    Stop making up ****, judging by what you wrote you are just talking straight out of your ***.

    Prove me wrong anytime in game.

  9. @Rikofelt Kahories doesn't seem to have STS option. Also can I input the unbuffed stats I get from Landsouls spreadsheet because my dk is not BiS geared.

  10. @Rikofelt Kahories doesn't seem to have STS option. Also can I input the unbuffed stats I get from Landsouls spreadsheet because my dk is not BiS geared.


    I have the option of using sts and I'm running the latest build of Kahories which is in the link I provided (it's the one at the top). You can edit whatever gear you want with all possible enchants and gems in the gear editor. Another option is going to the Character Editor tab on the programm and manually input everything. I've no idea why you'd ever want to do that though.
    Edited: January 17, 2017


  11. Another option is going to the Character Editor tab on the programm and manually input everything. I've no idea why you'd ever want to do that though.
    LoL that's exactly what I was doing. They tell you to do that in the instruction manual -_-. Good to know there's an easier way. TY.

  12. I will be talking mostly from the end game perspective.
    1. Yes its worth. Whoever tells u its not, never tryed to take that talent.
    2. From my point of view BIS wrist for FDK is Toskz, u can also get Bracers of the Heir from RS 10m hc if u want more atk power, but i wouldnt suggest doin that.
    3. Feet from Ruby Sanctum, aka Apocalypse's Advance, give u the hit u need and far more Strength than Blood Caked Stompers. So the best option for u is to get wrist with armor penetration on it.
    4. Considering u are Hit and Expertise capped and that u reached 1386+ armor penetration stat prio is this: Strength, Crit, Haste.
    Reason:
    Attack power from Strength will buff every attack u do,
    when u Crit ur main abilities (Obliterate, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Blood Strike) deal 245% of ur normal DMG while ur melee dmg is equal to 200% of normal when it crits,
    Haste on the other hand buffs ONLY ur melee dmg, just by making u hit faster. Haste gets diminished while crit doesnt, crit will always be like double normal hit, and u can never get that much Haste for it to make a huge diference in ur DPS.
    This is just my prio list, u may disagree, but this is something ive learned over the time ive been playing my DK.
    5. Fallen Crusader + Razorice. U can put them as u please, some ppl say FC procs more when its in main hand, some ppl like that 5-10 extra dmg per hit from Razorice if u put it in main hand.
    6. From my point of view double Havoc is bad for u. Havoc MH Bloodvenom OH.
    Reason:
    Bloodvenom Blade gives u Hit and Armor Penetration.
    81hit from feet + 52hit from BVB + 12hit from Icewalker + 2x 10str10hit gems = 165 hit rating (5.03%). This will alow u to go DOUBLE armor penetration ring (Might of Blight + Frostbrood Sapphire Ring, or Zarithrian's Offering) and gain more Attack Power overall that will buff ur MAIN HAND DMG, more than u will lose from switching from Havoc to Bloodvenom in OFF HAND DMG. So u basicly gain more combined DMG.
    7. When it comes to caps, u need 26 expertise AND only 5% hit chance + 3% hit chance from talents (total of 8% melee hit). Unless u can get spell hit capped u will miss pestilence based on RNG regardless of how many extra hit u have from 5% melee to spell hit cap AND on top of that there is RESIST part of that spell which u can NEVER avoid, its all up to RNG anyway. Going for Spell Hit Cap will result in a DPS decrease overall cos u will have to lose eather Armor Penetration/Strength or Crit in order to get more hit.
    8. Only talents u should sacrifice for Blood Caked Blade are Subversion and Black Ice. Explanation below...

    Now lets talk about Blood Caked Blade.
    This talent is only worth going when u are Armor Penetration Capped, aka 1386-1400. In that range, the closer u are to 1386 number is better.

    http://imgur.com/a/VMJYD
    This is a dps run i did just now on a dummy.
    Gear used for it: http://imgur.com/a/Q1EcN 1391 armor pen
    Profesions: BS + JC
    DBW procs: Nothing for first 50sec of the fight for some reason > Haste > Crit
    Talents used for it: http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#jzZG...zf0cuzAofM0hxc

    As u can see BCB has 3.2% of total dmg done. Lets compare that talent to Subversion and Black Ice.
    I did arround 690000 dmg that would be buffed with Black Ice. We have 3 points in BCB so that means i could buff that dmg by 6% total. 6% out of 690000dmg is 41400dmg. Blood Caked Blade did 71832dmg. If u put 2 talents from BCB to Subversion i would get 6% more crit. Lets say 6% more of my Obliterates and Blood Strike hits wer crits. That would result in 43050 more dmg from extra Obli crits and 3500 more dmg from BS crits total of 46550dmg. Again, not even close to BCB dmg.
    Now, lets have 1 thing in mind. Melee hits will ALWAYS HAPPEN, no matter what u do with ur spells, in what order u cast them, how much u **** up when it comes to rotation, nothing will prevent melee hits from happening (wont count complete stop of dps cos in that case u wont be able to do Oblis, FSs, and most of ur spells). So, Blood Caked Blade will do 3% of ur total dmg ALWAYS. Sometimes less 2.5%, sometimes more 4.5%. But it will always be arround 30% of ur total successfull melee hits.
    When u have those last 3 talent points left, and u got the main talents in frost and unholy tree, Blood Caked Blade is by far BEST talent u can get in order to increase ur DPS.
    When it comes to gear, Toskk's Maximized Wristguards VS Bracers of the Heir, or, Frostbrood Sapphire Ring VS Zarithrian's Offering, it all comes to RNG. Sometimes Agility items will end up doin more DPS, sometimes Strenght items will end up doin more DPS. I personaly like goin for that extra crit from Toskz and Frostbrood mainly cos i only use 1/3 Subversion.
    About double armor pen gear, i simply dont like Ashen ring. Sometimes it just procs in bad time. But even so, lets say that the proc is worth 100 passive atk power (considering u fully use those 10sec every time) double armor pen ring with Bloodvenom will end up giving u more DMG, mainly cos Havoc gives Haste. I consider Haste a **** stat for FDK. As explained it only buffs melee white hits, and not by much tbh. Some might say that it also buffs Necrosis and BcB if u have it, but in the end, Haste on how i see it, is still a **** stat.
    Some of the information stated by you is incorrect but the main point of your argument seems valid.
    Just an fyi, it is 253.7% not 245%.

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