1. Awesome guide and I'm in love with the formatting and colours chosen.

    In adition to mana restauration methods, I'd like to add that Rapture is your main mana return source as a discipline priest.

  2. Nemmish i love the guide you make.One of the few true disco priest lovers;]/

    c. Power Infusion, the value of haste for each class
    2. Boosting the raid damage:

    Shadow Priest
    Affliction Warlock: when the boss is below 35% health
    Demonology Warlock: when they are in Metamorphosis
    Mages: TTW > FFB > Arcane
    Balance druis: only when Eclipse (Lunar) is active
    Elemental Shamans
    I got the feeling that you mean for affliction when the boss is at or under 25% not 35% because nothing significant change for affliction in health range 100% - 26%.
    The most beneficial use of PI is when there is AOE dmg like LOD valks and RS Halion adds. If the PI is with good timing damage gain is insane, on halion can be over 150k if given on decent shadow priest or warlock.Most of the dpriest just trow random PI, when they have free gcd or whatever they feel like it.Some may trow a PI on specific place if you ask for it before the encounter start. Really good one will give PI on shadow priest or warlock when they benefit the most, there are few guys i notice doing it without asking on right time you and Sasha instantly comes into my mind;]/.

  3. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure I don't need a tutorial of how to disc on PP or LK. The mana regen concern that you're approaching is going completely off-topic since the discussion regarding that between me and Nemmish went to an end when we both agreed that most of the discipline priests out there have no idea of how to replenish their mana. If you're truly in need of having a solace on Lich King, something is terribly wrong about the way you control your mana costs and mana regenaration.

  4. If you're basing that 300mp5 value out of your meta, you're wrong. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41401 not only relies on a proc chance (so you're relying on the RNG gods instead of having a static value behind it. Static values usually bring more results to a raid situation) and when it procs gives +600 mana and an additional 200mp5. However, the actual returns, are around 60mp5. 60mp5 is the value of mp5 that you get from a common http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=37835. Now to really crunch it even more, those +21 intellect directly translate into 315 mana. The benefits are extremely small while compared to the meta I've approached.

    http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41333 not only gives you more mana (since those 2% intellect are actually scaling with the gear you're using - Example; If you're a priest with a 32k Mana pool, you'll obtain an additional 640 mana) but it also provides you the other variables included with the bonus intellect that comes with those 2% (Critical Strike, Mana Regeneration and obviously Spell Power). Oh, did I mention that it also has an impact on the returns that you get from http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=57669 ? If anything, the main decision for a discipline priest, should be between http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41333 and http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389 but that boils down into a personal decision of spell power versus 0.5% crit. This, if you really want to be fully optimized. If not, anything goes I guess.
    I still think sometimes like a 5.8k priest. So naturally I went the longevity meta gem. But you're correct for other meta gems. In high end gear throughput --> longevity as we do have enuf mana and mana regen to sustain ourselves most of the time. I will change the meta gems in the guide, including the 2 you mentioned and as u said whichever ppl chose is up to their personal choice and change my current one as a optimal one for those whose still gear up.
    I still think that http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41401 outperforms http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389, but I will include both in the guide :)

    Thanks. It's pretty much the same as my 2nd build. The only difference being the trinket. Which one I will fix soon.

    Well, you shouldn't rely yourself on what you see from others or from your personal experience either if you're missing some of the good information behind it. The smart heal was working as intended the last time I've checked and it's the main reason why it's so strong. Ignoring such strong proc and base stat always makes me wonder what the hell is going on with people in general. Nothing personal.
    Well Iam sorry, I didn't know that the smart heal works as I don't posses the trinket myself, as i've stated before. But, if you say it does, then I see no reason not to use Abacus. Will make Solace optimal for those who're clunky at mana magement and make make Abacus as BiS.

    Sidenote @Nemmish: In your SP-focused build, you use http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50720. Wouldn't http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=50644 be a better choice?
    Woops. Was a bit sloopy here. I even went against dis statement "Summary: If you are at around ilvl 264, choose spirit over MP5, given the choice. At sub-264 levels, use MP5 if given the choice." I will fix this asap.

    In adition to mana restauration methods, I'd like to add that Rapture is your main mana return source as a discipline priest.
    I have it included just at the Rapture section :)
    http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=47537
    This spell is the main mana regeneration for a discipline priest.
    I got the feeling that you mean for affliction when the boss is at or under 25% not 35%
    Whops, 35% is the soulfire spam my bad, I will fix this one :)

    Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate them. I will update the guide as soon as I will have the time.

  5. I find the discussion about mana efficiency to be rather interesting. The first time I "mained" a Priest was during the TBC era, and the gameplay at the time was centered around maintaining your mana for the length of a boss fight, rather than going OOM half way through and be completely useless for the latter half of the encounter. Mana efficiency was my primary concern at the time, and I learned how to manage my own mana pretty well. Nearly a decade later, being efficient with my mana is basically second nature to me.

    Why I find the discussion interesting is because I often see people recommend X or Y talent for mana efficiency, or a specific item (often a trinket, such as solace) as "best". Yes, these things are great for newbie Priests who are still gearing up or learning how to be efficient with their mana regen. But when we're speaking about things like Lich King? Or BIS characters? At this point, I would expect people to have learned enough about the "mana game" to know that a mana regen trinket is, in fact, not BIS, nor ever will be. For any healer class/spec, for that matter. Solace was great when ToC was current content, and even great for those who aren't doing ICC25 yet. But by the point you have access to 277+ ilvl trinkets and a full gear set, I can't help but wonder why people think mana is such a huge concern that a trinket like this would be BIS.

    Then I see you guys having this conversation and it pleases me a great deal that I'm not completely alone on this.

    I know this post doesn't really contribute to the guide itself, but it does give me faith. Thank you. :)


    Edit: Perhaps a tip for newbies is to teach them about and encourage them to take advantage of the 5-second-rule?
    In case you don't already know what that is: The 5-second-rule essentially dictates that you stop casting for 5 seconds so that you start regenerating your mana at 100% efficiency. For those that don't already know, with the exception of adjustments made by talents, your mana regeneration is cut in half when you cast a spell, and the effect lasts until the next "mana interval", which is 5 seconds later. Newbie Priests (particularly lesser geared ones) can take advantage of this to boost their mana efficiency. Which means that essentially when your mana starts dipping and nobody is taking too much damage, stop casting for a little while to get your mana regen up. You can even wand the mob/boss in the meantime, which can help your mana efficiency even further if there is a Paladin using Judgment of Wisdom.

  6. Perhaps a tip for newbies is to teach them about and encourage them to take advantage of the 5-second-rule?
    You have just predicted my next Edit to the guide :) I have planned to include in my guide just recently, most likely at the mana management section.
    When I have the time I will fix all the commented mistakes and add this one as well. Thank you for pointing it out.

  7. I still think sometimes like a 5.8k priest. So naturally I went the longevity meta gem. But you're correct for other meta gems. In high end gear throughput --> longevity as we do have enuf mana and mana regen to sustain ourselves most of the time. I will change the meta gems in the guide, including the 2 you mentioned and as u said whichever ppl chose is up to their personal choice and change my current one as a optimal one for those whose still gear up.
    I still think that http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41401 outperforms http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=41389, but I will include both in the guide :)
    Don't forget that those 2% mana also scale with your current gear. Those gems are optimized and will scale according to your gear. The more gear you have the more efficiency they deliver and that's the main reason why I state that at the end of the day those are the two gems that should be discussed under personal terms. Including your meta, even when gearing, doesn't fit in my head since I've personally geared all my Discipline priests with the Meta's that I've mentioned (I've also seen all the big Discipline Priests from back in the day rocking this same metas). However, like I've mentioned, it also depends on how the person wants to gear their character as a whole; If they want to be fully optimized, those two gems need to be considered but if they want to play like whatever they feel like, by all means, go for it.

    Thanks. It's pretty much the same as my 2nd build. The only difference being the trinket. Which one I will fix soon.
    Yes, they are indeed quite similar. The main difference between us is the fact that I go for a flat spell power build since I can sustain my mana without extra trinkets and without that extra spirit that, at the end of the day, won't be the gamebreaking change if you don't know how to sustain your mana costs.

    Well Iam sorry, I didn't know that the smart heal works as I don't posses the trinket myself, as i've stated before. But, if you say it does, then I see no reason not to use Abacus. Will make Solace optimal for those who're clunky at mana magement and make make Abacus as BiS.
    I'm sorry for my first sentence in that quote but I kinda had to drop it in there since some of your guildies like to use it against me from time to time. :p
    Anyway, yes, Abacus should be the top choice under the terms that I've described. We're talking about one of the best healing procs that exists and also about a huge ammount of Spell power that is being traded by MP5. I'm of the honest opinion that MP5 shouldn't be used under any terms on a priest since you have so many useful tools to restore all of your mana. Obviously, making this a really controlable situation takes time and a lot of practice. That's all.

    Note: I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong here, I'm literally having a discussion about how to approach different methods.
    Edited: December 31, 2016

  8. With all due respect, I'm pretty sure I don't need a tutorial of how to disc on PP or LK. The mana regen concern that you're approaching is going completely off-topic since the discussion regarding that between me and Nemmish went to an end when we both agreed that most of the discipline priests out there have no idea of how to replenish their mana. If you're truly in need of having a solace on Lich King, something is terribly wrong about the way you control your mana costs and mana regenaration.
    It wasn't meant for you. I've seen you play discipline priest before and I know what you're capable of. It's more meant for anyone who would actually benefit from this guide. Mana-management and fight-specific strategies are often the best and most useful parts of a guide apart from the obvious gearing/spec setup for those who are completely new to the class, wouldn't you agree?

    We're talking about one of the best healing procs that exists and also about a huge ammount of Spell power that is being traded by MP5.


    In Professor Putricide 25, it healed 125k total, 100k of it effective. Procc'ed 10 times throughout the fight, which lasted 9.00 minutes. It accounted for about 6.4% of HEALING, and about 1.6% of Absorbs and Healing, which was 6.3 Million. Is this truly one of the best healing procs that exists? More often than not it's going to proc on the first effective heal it can find, and go on its ICD, rather than procc'ing when you truly need it, perhaps during a Green ooze and such. Also, since when did 33 spellpower become a huge amount, its not even 2 gems.

  9. In Professor Putricide 25, it healed 125k total, 100k of it effective. Procc'ed 10 times throughout the fight, which lasted 9.00 minutes. It accounted for about 6.4% of HEALING, and about 1.6% of Absorbs and Healing, which was 6.3 Million. Is this truly one of the best healing procs that exists? More often than not it's going to proc on the first effective heal it can find, and go on its ICD, rather than procc'ing when you truly need it, perhaps during a Green ooze and such. Also, since when did 33 spellpower become a huge amount, its not even 2 gems.
    This is actually part of the reason why I don't like having "proc" items in my gear on both tanks and healers. I don't like RNG on these, I always like to be in control. For obvious reasons I'm sure.

  10. In Professor Putricide 25, it healed 125k total, 100k of it effective. Procc'ed 10 times throughout the fight, which lasted 9.00 minutes. It accounted for about 6.4% of HEALING, and about 1.6% of Absorbs and Healing, which was 6.3 Million. Is this truly one of the best healing procs that exists?.
    Are you serious right now?
    Considering that you don't have any other trinket that gives you this ammount of Spell Power, considering that no other trinket gives you such a strong proc and considering that your alternative is a mp5 trinket I think that there's no other discussion possible. Plus, driving yourself under the results of one fight only makes me question how you crunch numbers. We're talking about a chance on cast and we're talking about something that includes RNG in it, however, the flat spell power value is just too good to be ignored.

    33 Spell Power isn't a huge difference but with that approach you'll be wasting spell power in other places as well; However you're refering yourself to what? The meta? The trinket? I don't even understand from where those 33 came from.

    Mana-management and fight-specific strategies are often the best and most useful parts of a guide apart from the obvious gearing/spec setup for those who are completely new to the class, wouldn't you agree?
    What's the point of being so technical and so in-depth in a fight mechanic when the target audience that is reading the guide has no clue of what you're talking about in the long run? Might as well pass out the basic concepts like the OP did and allow them to do their own experiments and personal development. Long written explanations and in-depth guides of fights for specific classes in specific encounters will only lead people to even more mistakes since experiences might vary from raid to raid or guild to guild.
    Edited: January 1, 2017

  11. Are you serious right now?
    Considering that you don't have any other trinket that gives you this ammount of Spell Power, considering that no other trinket gives you such a strong proc and considering that your alternative is a mp5 trinket I think that there's no other discussion possible. Plus, driving yourself under the results of one fight only makes me question how you crunch numbers. We're talking about a chance on cast and we're talking about something that includes RNG in it, however, the flat spell power value is just too good to be ignored.
    I'm not driving myself under the results of one fight, i merely posted the results of one of the fights for you to see for yourself. Althor's is indeed a chance on cast, but also has a 45 second internal cooldown. It will proc once to heal someone for about 6k (10k crit) at bis, and then go inactive for 45 seconds. There is no guarantee it ends up being a truly valuable heal that couldn't have otherwise been easily covered by any of the other 4 healer's quick cast spells (Swiftmend, Holy Shock, Nature's Swiftness, Penance, etc). If such damage is going out AND Althor's proc lines up with it, chances are at least half of the healers will see that damage and use their instant casts on it. It's by no means a strong proc.

    However, if you're questioning my numbers and results, feel free to post your own videos, numbers, or any other experiences you've had related to Althor's Abacus or discipline in heroics on the new core, and I'll be happy to learn from it.


    33 Spell Power isn't a huge difference but with that approach you'll be wasting spell power in other places as well; However you're refering yourself to what? The meta? The trinket? I don't even understand from where those 33 came from.
    33 spellpower is the difference between Solace HC and Althor's HC. I never said anything about sacrificing spell power in other places as well, I use the same gear in the 2nd bis list in the first post / your bis list.


    You keep assuming the ideal discipline scenario where you can use your tools to maintain mana in a long fight, and using that to call mp5 useless. What happens in the non-ideal scenario that happens ALL the time. Perhaps you get cucked on infest by a Val'anyr resto druid (anyone whose healed with a Val'anyr resto/holy priest recently knows exactly what I'm talking about) and you get nothing from Rapture. Perhaps you die and get rezzed with very little mana. Perhaps your replenishment source dies, or your Hymn is used non-ideally, or your shadow-fiend dies. I agree that in the perfect scenario, Althor's is better just because it gives more spell power alone. But is it not valuable to lose 33 spell power just to have this safety blanket of mana for the non-ideal scenario?

    May I ask if you've personally experienced healing longer fights like PP or LK 25hc with Abacus recently, or are you speaking purely from a theoretical standpoint.

  12. You keep assuming the ideal discipline scenario where you can use your tools to maintain mana in a long fight, and using that to call mp5 useless. What happens in the non-ideal scenario that happens ALL the time. Perhaps you get cucked on infest by a Val'anyr resto druid (anyone whose healed with a Val'anyr resto/holy priest recently knows exactly what I'm talking about) and you get nothing from Rapture. Perhaps you die and get rezzed with very little mana. Perhaps your replenishment source dies, or your Hymn is used non-ideally, or your shadow-fiend dies. I agree that in the perfect scenario, Althor's is better just because it gives more spell power alone. But is it not valuable to lose 33 spell power just to have this safety blanket of mana for the non-ideal scenario?

    May I ask if you've personally experienced healing longer fights like PP or LK 25hc with Abacus recently, or are you speaking purely from a theoretical standpoint.
    It isn't a matter of "ideal scenario" it's a matter of knowing what the hell you're doing. You're not only neglecting the fact that you have a raid composition to back up possible adversities from an encounter (because you know, raiding with competent players is indeed a thing - or was a few years ago and back in the day) but you're also relying to the fact that you'll run yourself out of mana once a thing like that happens. A Val'anyr from a resto druid does not overwrite your Power Word: Shield under any terms and the first thing to break is in fact your Power Word: Shield. Not the Val'anyr bubble - At least that's how it should be.
    We're literally sitting here discussing "what if's" instead of talking and discussing static values and static results. What if isn't something that can be discussed since, like I've stated in my previous post;

    experiences might vary from raid to raid or guild to guild.
    I was forced to pull clutch moves with incompetent raiders and I've been able to play with one hand with competent raiders. Simple as that. We're literally going into a discussion where it seems that you're trying to have the need of being right.

    I'm not driving myself under the results of one fight, i merely posted the results of one of the fights for you to see for yourself.
    One experience. One fight. One RNG based result. Is your result mandatory as a definitive result just because you got a bad RNG?

    However, if you're questioning my numbers and results, feel free to post your own videos, numbers, or any other experiences you've had related to Althor's Abacus or discipline in heroics on the new core, and I'll be happy to learn from it.
    I think you're literally trying to taunt my answer to go in one direction but I'm not gonna do it. I really won't and I wouldn't advise you to walk in that direction. I'll just give you an example; Remember the last time you told Talarina about using Solace in PvE? Remember how he laughed at you? That was my reaction right now.

    33 spellpower is the difference between Solace HC and Althor's HC. I never said anything about sacrificing spell power in other places as well, I use the same gear in the 2nd bis list in the first post / your bis list.
    33 spellpower is the difference between Solace HC and Althor's HC with a proc included. Disregarding that is just... Ironic.

    May I ask if you've personally experienced healing longer fights like PP or LK 25hc with Abacus recently, or are you speaking purely from a theoretical standpoint.
    Not only I've done it with the new core but I also did it on live content. Every single top PvE Discipline Priest was running Abacus for a reason and discussing "private server scenarios" isn't something that really calls my attention anyway. Specially when the fights are now working almost equally as they were back in live content. Now with all due respect for the OP, my discussion with you here is over.
    Edited: January 1, 2017

  13. You can continue to speak from your theoretical / retail standpoint, as you seem to be the only one discussing "what-ifs". You have not produced any hard results. Please show some of your own results of Althor's healing effectively in any fight and prove me wrong that its a powerful proc. Also, bringing up Talarina is a flawed claim, as this person has done zero theorycrafting on the new core, NOR has he had much of any practical raiding experience on the new core. I'm urging you to not reference things that are unrelated to Discipline priests, or this guide. You've failed to produce ANY numbers to support your claims not only on this guide but other guides you've commented on. You've simply referenced Talarina, even when others have produced their own numbers contradicting your claims. Referencing actions previously done on this server OR actions done on retail are not valid arguments to disprove me, as they contain zero empirical data related to the current state of Warmane.

    As for further Althor's Abacus healing numbers, from OVER 30 encounters in Heroic ICC / Ruby Sanctum on a Discipline Priest, using Althor's Abacus, it accounted for about 1% of overall Healing and Absorbs (504k of 36.8 million heals + absorbs). This combined with my previous point on NEEDED instant heals leads me to believe its not a strong proc at all. Again, referencing retail players or older players always using Abacus is not a valid argument, I urge you to provide HARD numbers to back up your claim and prove me wrong.

  14. You can continue to speak from your theoretical / retail standpoint, as you seem to be the only one discussing "what-ifs". You have not produced any hard results. Please show some of your own results of Althor's healing effectively in any fight and prove me wrong that its a powerful proc. Also, bringing up Talarina is a flawed claim, as this person has done zero theorycrafting on the new core, NOR has he had much of any practical raiding experience on the new core. I'm urging you to not reference things that are unrelated to Discipline priests, or this guide. You've failed to produce ANY numbers to support your claims not only on this guide but other guides you've commented on. You've simply referenced Talarina, even when others have produced their own numbers contradicting your claims. Referencing actions previously done on this server OR actions done on retail are not valid arguments to disprove me, as they contain zero empirical data related to the current state of Warmane.

    As for further Althor's Abacus healing numbers, from OVER 30 encounters in Heroic ICC / Ruby Sanctum on a Discipline Priest, using Althor's Abacus, it accounted for about 1% of overall Healing and Absorbs (504k of 36.8 million heals + absorbs). This combined with my previous point on NEEDED instant heals leads me to believe its not a strong proc at all. Again, referencing retail players or older players always using Abacus is not a valid argument, I urge you to provide HARD numbers to back up your claim and prove me wrong.
    Let's make things clear then;

    Static numbers don't change. Static numbers are static numbers. You can still calculate results out of static numbers under any core. They don't have any variable change therefore NO CHANGES happen. With this said:
    Abacus, in average, will heal around 2-4% in your healing status after a raid encounter. Considering we're talking about millions, do I need to crunch those numbers for you since they're static values?

    With the new core mp5 hasn't changed. If anything, they've debugged the gain on Solace and you don't generate stacks as fast as you would on the old core. A good example of that is Penance generating three stacks when being cast on the old core; Nowadays, through Solace, you get two stacks out of a Penance cast. Also, I want to remind the fact, that if you're able to generate the 8 stacks and sustain those same stacks the static value of mp5 that you obtain is 144 that does not change whatsoever under any kind of core that you might try to appeal to this discussion.

    Here's the formula behind the design of Abacus; SP x SP stat weight + (Average heal [e.g. 6000]/healing per mana [6.5]*overheal mod [0.9] /cool down [50]*5*MP5 stat weight. So, with this formula being applied, we're getting a smart heal without any mana cost behind it therefore it won't count as a overheal since you're not having mana consumption behind it. If it doesn't consume mana, if it's a RNG based ability, it shouldn't be related to overheal values if we're going to be precise. Abacus also has this particular issue; The overheal percent is assumed at 90% (only 10% of heals wasted) as this is a smart heal.

    If you're not running out of mana without Solace, considering your raid setup, your own cooldowns, the sinergy with other healers, you're wasting possible healing while running Solace since you're not only discarding a spell power value but you're also ignoring a smart heal proc that is a help that can land on the right target. You're wasting EFFECTIVE HEALING. 2% to 4% on a boss encounter is a huge number that shouldn't be discarded for a 144mp5 value that shouldn't be needed if you're doing your mana management properly. Not only that, but you also need to keep in consideration that your raid composition is there to support you under those terms.

    Now about "what if" situations? Under normal circumstances, if you have to heavily pressure yourself and you have to pick up the slack of others no ammount of variable can help you with that and that's an issue with your raiders. What I can obtain from this discussion is that if you're going to try to act as a hardcore raider your raid needs to step up as hardcore as well.

    Also, I would like to clear your mind about one thing; The new core that was implemented is a closer representation of retail like values. Yes, some things might be bugged but others work as intended. With this being said, we need to keep in mind one thing and one thing only; Static values will always be static values. Those same static values are values that were originally transported from Retail. Imported from Retail. Therefore, all of this "theorycrafting" is something that was already done when the content was originally released. You're not presenting something new, in fact, I took the time of discussing this with Talarina while writing down this post. We went over multiple informations and we've done the tests in-game with his Discipline Priest. If you truly want numbers, I can recommend you to check out your sources and understand the fact that a static mp5 value that isn't needed in the first place won't ever overcome flat effective healing.

  15. Now this is a great theoretical analysis of the effectiveness of Althor's Abacus, and I'll apologize for any derogatory tone or drama I took with you or Mr. Talarina. There is one thing I want to point out though, which I also pointed out in my very first post in the thread.

    If you're not running out of mana without Solace, considering your raid setup, your own cooldowns, the sinergy with other healers, you're wasting possible healing while running Solace since you're not only discarding a spell power value but you're also ignoring a smart heal proc that is a help that can land on the right target. You're wasting EFFECTIVE HEALING. 2% to 4% on a boss encounter is a huge number that shouldn't be discarded for a 144mp5 value that shouldn't be needed if you're doing your mana management properly. Not only that, but you also need to keep in consideration that your raid composition is there to support you under those terms.
    I agree with this, as I said so myself in my first post. As justification for my next words, I'd like to consider myself as one of the more experienced discs you were talking about, as I've been playing Disc at LOD for the past few months now, most of the time with Althor's, even with a 3-healing comp. Please don't take this as elitism, that's not my intent. I've managed just fine with Althor's and no innervates on many of the fights, but there will be unforeseen circumstances (stated in my previous posts) in some fights that will make your life much more difficult if you don't have the "crutch" of solace. As you said in your earlier post, the target audience of this guide are those who take it as it is, and will experiment with their class as they go. Would it not be better for them to start with the crutch of a "mana" trinket, and as they become more experienced, transition to a more throughput based "bis" build?

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