Ingame logic wasn't brought to the thread by me and I simply continued on it saying 'if we are going after ingame logic' because of the post mentioning quests.
Yeah DotC's are strong and very low cooldown for a t3 unit but tauren still beats it in my experience.
Dryads and sorcs debatable because there are too many things to take into consideration but Tauren is simply the strongest ground unit overall, damage, soak, hp etc.
I mean if you want to go to the point where you include realism in a discussion about a fantasy universe clash between two completely different factions its kinda silly but lets go your way and imagine something happened. Tauren shamans could manipulate the elements to drown the earth in water and enjoy swimming on Azeroth's newest shore, Thunder Bluff. No need to worry about dead bodies swimming up and ruining some family vacation either, all that armor is gonna keep them right where they died from drowning.
But since this ain't a fanfiction, lets take a look at books where pure strength with a bit of skill and good leadership always brought more to the battle than anything else and draw conclusions from there. And where 1 bullet =/= 1 kill. I doubt those tanks and riflemen would reload fast enough.
Oh and yeah, Mountain King does beat Tauren Chieftain in 1v1 but is far less useful than TC in an actual battle, TC isn't quite meant for 1v1. Try Blademaster or Demon Hunter for pure 1v1s.
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Edited: February 20, 2017
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It's a bit hard to just measure strength with raw power, numbers and skills/abilities, because both factions are still bound with laws and code of honor that will stop them from doing certain strategic actions that might be considered playing dirty.
Otherwise, we might see taurens turning the very rocks the dwarves live in against them, or we might see the dwarves toppling Thunderbluff by digging some holes through its' foundation.
Or they might not, it's just my imagination running wild
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I don't think their shaman has that power, otherwise they wouln't have problems with centaurs, grimtotems and other enemies. I has read Rise of the horde and shamans are just a support. Anyway, as someone said before, dwarves has shaman, apart from magues and warlocks.
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Neither do Dwarves in any way, as I said its no fanfiction where a faction you like destroys the other one.
Dwarven shamans are a joke, Blizzard just added somewhere down the path of WoW in order to introduce that class to Dwarves I guess.
'Wildhammers are shamans that commune with nature as they always have' but nothing more than that, no real lore and honestly they could have gone without that. Both Falstad and Kurdran Wildhammer are no shamans but gryphon riders that were a class for themselves in Warcraft 2 wielding stormhammers that are enchanted weapons so no use of elements. Their most known ancient relative is Khardros Wildhammer who was a warrior.
They could have made lore about Dwarven shamans if they wanted, since they were basically made of stone. They do some shaman-like things as well such as the thunderclap, storm hammer throw from gryphons etc. but they simply never mentioned them as shamans nor were they meant to be shamans.
Imagine if they decided to make an undead shaman playable. They would write 'these undead are risen shamans that have kept their spiritual selves through death' or something like that and voila - undead shamans. Things like that make some people stay away from the current lore.
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Bad example. There's nothing lore-wise that would prevent undead from communing with spirits/elementals and that's basically all shamans have to do to get their power. It's scary how much sense undead troll shamans make when they have their own spirit of the dead and an identity built around resilience and refusal to die.
"De' Amani never give up! We never forget. We never die. 'Dis is our land: you wanna stay, you stay here forever! We gonna bury you here."Edited: February 21, 2017
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Elements and the plague of undeath don't quite go well just like for example Blood Elves can never be druids because of their completely different way of thinking and living. And even if they did it would be some hostile group such as the fanatic trolls you mention, not a part of the Forsaken. So no, it wouldn't make sense just like most of the changes they made so far.
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You're focusing too much on your own narrow view of what a shaman is. A shaman can be any individual that borrows or takes by force power from some greater elemental entity. How does being undead in any way conflict with that? Do you actually believe Ragnaros would give a **** about lending power to an undead if it benefited him? What's gonna stop a particularly powerful undead from taking said power? No, the problem here is that when you say shaman, you think of Thrall, playing poker with your ancestors and benevolent healing magics, while none of those things really define a shaman.
The reason Forsaken shamans would make no sense has nothing to do with them being undead and everything to do with Lordaeron having no shamans to begin with. There's also no inherent reason why a blood elf can't be a druid, there's no magical force that stops them from practicing and mastering druidic magic. The reason blood elf druids aren't playable is because there wouldn't be enough of them to justify the class, not because they are forbidden from being a druid lore-wise.
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Flight Form: Butterfly
Cat Form: Pink Sparkle Kitteh
Moonkin Form: Pink Strider
Travel Form: Pink Unicorn with glitter
Bear Form: Some burly leather-clad man with a lot of chest hair who really enjoys gettin spankedEdited: February 21, 2017
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And how do you know what my view on shamans consists of, or how limited my knowledge of lore is? You are aware that we are talking about something that is already defined in the lore? And unless Blizzard decides otherwise that's gonna stay like that, and if they do decide then the lore will feel weak as I said. Nothing else to it except fanfiction. And yes, exceptionally powerful NPC's do already have classes their race doesn't offer in the character creation menu. There was a Blood Elf shaman if I remember well added in Cataclysm for example.And a druid in Botanica, unknown if he is a real druid or just corrupted like the rest of the place.
I won't even get into the Forsaken not being shamans because of Lordaeron having none at all topic because I think you said enough about your knowledge of both shamanism and the Forsaken with it. As far as I remember blood elves actually have druids in lore that only commune with nature forces in their lands but cannot actually shapeshift just like humans or they would get severely injured or in case of shapeshifting - go feral. Most of them are just too addicted to the arcane to care about any other form of magic.Edited: February 21, 2017
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One of these is not like the others.
Spoiler:Show
Shamans in lore are defined as individuals that use the power of the elements. This is the core of what makes one a shaman, this is the one thing an individual has to be able to do to be considered a shaman. The reason I say you have a very narrow view of shamanism is because you think and I quote "elements and the plague of undeath don't quite go well", which is silly because there's absolutely no reason they can't go well together given what we know about shamans. TL:DR; Thrall clones aren't the only kind of shaman that exists in this game. Take a look at Twilight's Hammer.
Well, I mean, if you just wanna make stupid claims and provide no argumentation, I fully encourage you to do that. Now I can just respond with "ok" and gaze upon you even more condescendingly than before from atop my throne of pointless arguments won on the internet.
Hey, look! I found that fanfiction you were talking about.Edited: February 21, 2017
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The forsaken aren't that closely tied to Lordaeron, they are undead humanoids freed from the grasp of the Scourge. By someone who isn't a Lordaeron human either. Go onto some heavier research on that matter and you will realize why I said the sentence you quoted. If you are truly interested in learning more about the lore,go and read some. If nothing then at least to be able to debate about it on the forums. There's nothing bad in being wrong about something, we all are eventually.
I don't really understand your need to say stuff like that after I mentioned in my previous post that there are other shamans and since they are present in the game itself and the books I can't classify your comment as nothing else but an attempt at insulting someones knowledge about basics of this universe.
And no. Shamans aren't just individuals that use the power of the elements. They are born gifted, or at least have some need to go down that path, taught further by the older shamans around them, passing rites and drinking saptas crafted by those shamans. The cultures all had some deeper meaning than just mastering the elements for their destructive or healing powers and rituals to help the future shamans get a bond with the elements. Frequently the elements choose the shaman, based on the affinity for the elements in his/her youth. Of course anyone can try to tap into the spiritual realm and some might even succeed but surely not enough for lore to get retconned like that.
Sorry to break your bubble but taking upon shamanistic powers by force is not quite doable for a whole race, unless your race is Taunka because they know how to forcefully bend the elements to their will because they needed them to survive in harsh conditions, since the elements could simply choose not to answer. As I said even if some exceptionally powerful character pulled it off it's still not enough to change the lore and give the class to a certain race he belongs to. (belf shaman in cataclysm being the proof of that).
But you know what, derailing this thread just to point out our own opinion won't do us much good nor will we learn anything from each other apparently.
I respect your opinion on the matter but I'm quite done arguing about it here since I feel like if I pointed out that orcs can't be paladins you would find a way to claim they could.Edited: February 21, 2017
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The majority of Forsaken are humans from the Kingdom of Lordaeron with some elves sprinkled from Quel'thalas. They are the remnants of the Scourge invasion force around those parts after Arthas left for the Frozen Throne. This is extremely basic information that isn't explicitly written on Wowwiki, which would explain why you're talking nonsense, as you seem to be "learning more about the lore" as you type.
I need to say stuff like that because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of why there are no Forsaken shamans and to illustrate that, I need to point out that there are shamans outside of the Earthen Ring treehugging stereotype. Would Forsaken shamans be ridiculous? Yes but not because of their undeath, rather because their faction lacks shaman leaders. If a huge part of the Forsaken consisted of Amani trolls, instead of Lordaeron humans, undead shamans would make perfect sense. This is why "elements and the plague of undeath don't quite go well" is just factually incorrect as there is no real conflict or reason why it can't happen under the proper circumstances, unlike say undead holy priests and undead paladins, where the power source of the class is ultimately at odds with the body.
That is the essence of what makes someone a shaman in the Warcraft universe. If you can commune with the elements and either convince or force them to lend you their power, you are a shaman, Harry. The means by which you go about this are irrelevant.
Now this is funny. You claim that it's not doable and then in the very same sentence provide evidence that it's doable. I think you broke your own bubble there.
Let's draw some parallels!
You: Imagine if they made orc paladins and fluff it up as something like "The Argent Crusade actually trains their members to fight undead". No wonder people are leaving!
Me: Bad example, that could actually make sense.
You: Nuh huh, the light and green skin don't go well together.
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I guess it was a mistake to read your reply when I saw that your post is the last one in this topic because it makes me want to reply back.
The plague is the foundation of the reason the undead have no shamans. They don't care about it and they don't need it for anything, they have no connection to it and completely oppose their beliefs in almost every way. I mean you are saying the same thing I am except you use 10 sentences while I used one to get over that topic since it deserves no attention in this thread.
I am sure you are aware that the character who created the Scourge didn't target only Lordaeron. Not even only that continent. There are many races afflicted by the plague and none of them are shamanistic post-death. The only reason can't possibly be the thing they all have in common - the plague. Nope. Let's not forget the fact that when Ner'zhul started practicing shadow arts and demon magic the elements denied him and wouldn't respond to him anymore. But these creatures that are infused with that very magic by that very person can do the things their creator couldn't? Superb point.
Nope, shamans aren't defined by that. Dark shamanism is a different thing than actual shamanism as it's a twisted and cunning way of using the elements. The powers of Decay(Sixth Element) and Void are in play there, corrupting the elements and sometimes ultimately destroying or turning them evil and unusable. Such shamans are the ones in Twillight's Hammer, Fel Horde and Iron Horde. Still powerful shamans that got corrupted, not just a random villager that said hey I'm gonna delve into some sick Decay magic, hold my ale. It was passed down to the Kor'kron shamans in later expansions.
The Taunka are the only exception in lore since they use Dark Shamanism just without both Decay and Void, but with simple elementalist magic, and have been doing so for a very long period of time. Some say they are the first race to bend the elements to their will but also the least evil of the ones that bend them.
If there was any other race able to that it would be mentioned in the lore so that excludes what you are trying to prove.
I feel like we covered both shamanism and dark shamanism in yesterdays and todays class, feel free to bring some arguments in if you don't agree for homework. For a change.
I never said people are leaving because of lore, almost no one even cares about it on retail. I said that the ones who do follow it care less and less about it because of how unimportant it is when the foundations of the story the games were created upon are getting retconned.
We could go on for days like this but obviously you care far less to prove a point based on the amount of sarcasm and mockery in your replies.
Try bringing more facts in for your next reply, actual facts that aren't based on your sole opinion.
Thank you nonetheless for arguing about lore at all, can't remember the last time I met someone who cares about it on this server.
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guy's you're going off-topic
we were talking about how pitiful taurens are compared to dwarves, who just have to send (pay or lower the rent to) some gnomes to mulgore and lay waste on the cowmen
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How can I make this any simpler? Forsaken don't have shamans because they're primarily human and elves, who have no experience with being shamans. It has nothing to do with them being undead. If you replace humans with trolls and make an undead troll faction, undead shamans are an absolute certainty. You have this completely wrong understanding of how the elements function, they're not a benevolent force that despises undeath, they're just a bunch of powerful dicks who lend their powers to whomever they see fit, they're the former minions of the Old Gods. Goblin shamans bribe the elementals to use their powers for god's sake. This is the last time I'm gonna point this out.
I have a feeling you don't quite grasp the size of Lordaeron or the fact Arthas' Scourge forces were entirely concentrated on the northern Eastern Kingdoms, which is about 70% Lordaeron. This is why the overwhelming majority of Forsaken are humans and elves, because that's what Arthas killed the most. Are there members of other races among the Forsaken? Obviously. Does that somehow mean that the Forsaken "aren't that closely tied to Lordaeron"? Absolute tosh.
Also, Draenor orc shamans weren't denied by the elements because they practiced dark magic, they were denied because they were tricked into killing draenei by Kil'jaeden. Draenei had shaman of their own, which is why the elements didn't want to help in slaughtering their own servants. It is after the orc shamans got denied that they rerolled warlocks.
Oh, so dark shaman are not shaman? Why are they called dark shaman then? Wowwiki really isn't doing you any favors, mate.
How am I supposed to give you facts when you consider your personal opinion a fact and any actual facts that don't coincide with it are suddenly my personal opinion? Here are some actual facts for you:
1. There's no reason an undead can't use the power of the elements, unlike the Light, most elements don't care.
2. Forsaken are primarily Lordaeron humans.
3. An entire race can force the elements to lend them power, an entire race can also bribe the elements to lend them power.
4. "Dark shaman" are shaman.
All of these are facts that you don't consider facts for whatever reason and since I can't really seem to convince you of this, condescending mockery is the only thing keeping me interested in this conversation. You better appreciate.
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