1. You are right, my bad, thanks for the heads up. :D

  2. Hi there. Does this guide works for Icecrown realm? I've been told that Frost is not as good as it should be because of certain bugs and that Unholy is better option there?

  3. This guide sucks, frost / blood is better, they copy my talents because I have more damage maybe there are bugs in profane

  4. @tuclavo
    Do make a guide please, and show us how its done! :D

    Regarding the Unholy or Blood sub spec early game you can find this explanation I am about to quote in the guide:
    http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=326654 (this is the guide that comes from retail back in the days)

    2. SPECS:
    ...

    "[Blood Sub-spec Without Reaping] 17/0/54
    The most optimal single target build when poorly geared (which, in this context, is anything before 4P T9). The primary reason this spec is best at lower gear levels is due to Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Bladed Armor hardly scales since armor values on dps hardly scales, and thus gives a near-constant amount of AP regardless of gear level, making it a strong talent at the start, but relatively weaker as gear goes by. Dark Conviction provides a flat amount of crit, and crit gets weaker the more of it you have (i.e, 50 -> 55% crit is a smaller dps increase than 30 -> 35% crit). Once you get to 4P T9 and beyond, the two alternative specs will easily pull ahead, largely thanks to the failings of these two talents. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight.

    [Frost Sub-spec Without Reaping] 0/17/54
    The most optimal single target build when moderately geared (which, in this context, is anything from 4P T9 and beyond) and using a proc weapon (Bryntroll or Shadowmourne). The primary reason this spec scales better than its predecessor is due to Icy Talons and Endless Winter. Auto-attack damage has always scaled incredibly well (partially due to the fact that it benefits from every stat, and partially due to Necrosis), thus Icy Talons just improves upon that. Strength has always been our best stat, and Endless Winter just makes it even better. As well, this spec contains some benefits not directly related to single target dps: higher AoE dps (than 14/0/57 or 17/0/54), free interrupts, and greater dps while moving/at range. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight."

    This explanation probably works for Frost Spec, especially for those that dont know how to play well, since going Blood Spec is more newbie and target swap friendly.
    You can try out both to be honest, and make a judgment yourself, the difference wont be big anyway, and as you can see, after T9, for Frost probably after T10 is released, Unholy sub spec will become better for sure.

  5. @tuclavo
    Do make a guide please, and show us how its done! :D

    Regarding the Unholy or Blood sub spec early game you can find this explanation I am about to quote in the guide:
    http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=326654 (this is the guide that comes from retail back in the days)

    2. SPECS:
    ...

    "[Blood Sub-spec Without Reaping] 17/0/54
    The most optimal single target build when poorly geared (which, in this context, is anything before 4P T9). The primary reason this spec is best at lower gear levels is due to Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Bladed Armor hardly scales since armor values on dps hardly scales, and thus gives a near-constant amount of AP regardless of gear level, making it a strong talent at the start, but relatively weaker as gear goes by. Dark Conviction provides a flat amount of crit, and crit gets weaker the more of it you have (i.e, 50 -> 55% crit is a smaller dps increase than 30 -> 35% crit). Once you get to 4P T9 and beyond, the two alternative specs will easily pull ahead, largely thanks to the failings of these two talents. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight.

    [Frost Sub-spec Without Reaping] 0/17/54
    The most optimal single target build when moderately geared (which, in this context, is anything from 4P T9 and beyond) and using a proc weapon (Bryntroll or Shadowmourne). The primary reason this spec scales better than its predecessor is due to Icy Talons and Endless Winter. Auto-attack damage has always scaled incredibly well (partially due to the fact that it benefits from every stat, and partially due to Necrosis), thus Icy Talons just improves upon that. Strength has always been our best stat, and Endless Winter just makes it even better. As well, this spec contains some benefits not directly related to single target dps: higher AoE dps (than 14/0/57 or 17/0/54), free interrupts, and greater dps while moving/at range. Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by the combination of Death Coil and Unholy Blight."

    This explanation probably works for Frost Spec, especially for those that dont know how to play well, since going Blood Spec is more newbie and target swap friendly.
    You can try out both to be honest, and make a judgment yourself, the difference wont be big anyway, and as you can see, after T9, for Frost probably after T10 is released, Unholy sub spec will become better for sure.

    i think he was talking about frost with blood subspec,not uh with blood subspec

  6. Since there are A LOT of people asking if they should coin out one of these two cloaks: http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47547 / http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47548, I will make this comment regarding that.

    The simple answer is: "No, you dont need to coin this item, it will not affect your DPS almost at all".

    The longer answer is: You have two more cloaks that are A LOT easyer to get, and that will result in almost same amount of DPS, if not more (unless you are really lucky with both missed auto attacks and missed Pestilence due to lack of that hit from TOGC cloak, which wont happen 90% of the times).

    Perfect replacements would be:
    1. http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50677
    If you decide to go for this item, you should stick with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50728 and 15 Expertise enchant on wrist, in case you are not Orc and want to cap expertise.
    You should get ~1360 armor penetration from gear, use Armor Penetration food to cap it, and gem those yellow gem slots with 10 str 10 hit (Etched Ametrines) which will let you reach 190 hit if you have Engineering and 222 hit if you have Blacksmithing.
    If you are an Orc, all you need to do is gem 3x 10 expertise 10 hit (Accurate Ametrines) to cap expertise with http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54581, and fill the other yellow gems with 10 str 10 hit gems. Same amount of hit, expertise cap, just a bit more crit and attack power.

    2. http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=50467
    If you decide to go with this cloak, you should use http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=54581 regardless of if you are an Orc or Draenei (for example).
    You will be on 23 Expertise with T10 HC legs and this cloak alone, 28 if you are an Orc.
    If you still want to go over 23 Expertise (as non Orc), best way to cap it would be with 15 Expertise wrist enchant + 1x 10 expertise 10 hit gem.

    Overall your damage will be the same no matter which one of these 3 cloaks you decide to go for, or get your hands on.

    When it comes to another frequently asked question (I really dont understand why does this find so much debate), "How much hit should I get?"...
    The simple answer is: "5% Melee from gear minimum."
    The long answer is: "Anything above that only reduces the chance of a Icy Touch or Pestilence to miss."
    The most optimal hit is ~237 (when BIS), where you dont give in too much to that stat, nor you have low amount of it, but if you can go for 263 - 289 hit without losing any other stat, you should, since you will be capped on spells as well.

    Will you be fine on 5%? yes. You might never miss a pestilence, you might miss less than the person having 237 hit...
    Will you be fine on 8%? yes. It is RNG after all, and even if that miss happens, u can recover from it rather easy.

    Stop overthinking, this is not a hard game to play, this is not rocket science, learn the damn rotation before you start bashing your head against the wall over 1 item that will never make a difference when it comes to your DPS.

    So many bad words I hear these days about the current state of FDK and its DPS, and I feel like the main reason for that is people thinking way too much about minmaxing some dumb stat like 5% vs 6.3% vs 7.9% vs 8.4% hit, instead of learning how to properly play the damn class.

    I also found this old picture from a 0% buff LOD from back in the days...
    https://imgur.com/a/RooaY (even tho I was number 2, I think I was number 1 on LK+Valk+Raging damage done)
    Whoever says Frost DK is not viable because it is doing low dps, or because a BDK tank is providing Improved Icy Talons already, is a monkey that has no clue what he is talking about.
    LEARN TO PLAY AND STOP OVERTHINKING OVER 1 ITEM OR 1 GEM!

  7. @Gnimo what do you think would be best for frost dk when it comes to t9 and toc gear, should i go for hands or legs as off parts? as i'm currenlty playing on a progressive server but using your guide, sadly there is no BIS gear info out there when it comes to t9 and toc gear. great guide btw


  8. To answer many, from my point of view useless, ToC "bis" questions...

    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=48488
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47060 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47110
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=48486
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47547 / http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47548
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47086 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=48490
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47155
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47240 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=48489
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47002 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47112
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47132 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=48487
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47154 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47077
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47075
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=46966
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=45609 or http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=42987
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47131 / http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47464
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47156 / http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47475
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47526 / http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47528
    http://wotlk.cavernoftime.com/item=47673

    These are all the 258 items you can use from ToC 25m HC.
    As you can see yourself, the item choices are highly limited and stats wont be perfect.
    You will be over capped with Expertise and/or Hit, and your only option is to go for 245 items from ToC 10m HC, or Emblem of Triumph vendor.
    Armor Penetration is still lacking from items overall, and you need to wait Icecrown Citadel to even dream about that build.

    Your only choice is to stack Strength and wait for Icecrown Citadel gear and the golden age of Frost DKs, before RS is released and Fury Warriors and Mages take the top DPS spot.

  9. What is the best rotation for the blood sub spec? it seems those talents are better than the sub unholy ones for t9 content as every top dk on frostmourne use them. Should we prioritize frost strike with km proc over obliterate? and what about the blood and death runes, should we use x2 blood strike and 1 blood strike and 1 pestilence?

  10. From what a friend of mine told me, that did some sims recently on this subject (which matches with my tests I did long time ago on the dummy in game), once you can get your hands on Sigil of Awareness and Ulduar 226+ item level gear, Unholy Sub Spec wins over Blood Sub Spec in raids.
    For dungeons, I guess you can argue this with Sigil of the Vengeful Heart and Blood Sub Spec mainly because it is easyer to swap targets and you can get some extra 20 runic power as targets die.

    But as said before, Blood Sub Spec is more of a noob friendly spec, where Unholy Sub Spec will punish your mistakes almost instantly.
    Try out both and see which one suits you more for both dungeons and raids, depending on content you want to clear and farm.
    If you can afford both specs, aka you dont need your off spec for anything else, do that and swap whenever you need to.

  11. Hello Gnimo,
    I have a question for you.
    I have 1150 ArP on my frost DK and I'm wandering which of these trinket to use:
    1. Whispering Skull (normal)
    2. Banner of Victory for its 84 ArP

    I guess the 84 ArP will be better as it will boost my ArP to 1270 with food.
    On the other half without Whispering skull my crit change will drop from 32.60 to 29.80.
    Let me know your openion.
    Thank you.

  12. Since have nothing to do on tanking except raiding temporarily, I decided to raise offspec as frost dps. Thing is I got myself a juicy sedge along with bryntoll and wondering how bad it can be to spec for frost and use sedge instead of dualwield temporarily. What do you think, should I just go sedge frost till I get replacement (251lvl+ dual wield.) or just go uh and respec to frost when I get the weapons?

  13. Since have nothing to do on tanking except raiding temporarily, I decided to raise offspec as frost dps. Thing is I got myself a juicy sedge along with bryntoll and wondering how bad it can be to spec for frost and use sedge instead of dualwield temporarily. What do you think, should I just go sedge frost till I get replacement (251lvl+ dual wield.) or just go uh and respec to frost when I get the weapons?
    As frost it is a must to go as a dual wield. You have a lot of talents that make you do damage with the off hand weapon when you do obliterate, and so on. You need slowest weapons so that will be kinda easy to get through icc raiding.

  14. I didnt ask if dual wield is a must for dk. I asked if its better play to play with sedge till I get dual weapons rather than playing as uh till I get these dual weapons. Please read completly next time before answering randomly.

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