1. ...especially since im exp capped
    Expertise is one of the worst secondary stats that you can get in end-game gear by gems and/or offset gear. I'd suggest investing your expertise sockets into something else (red - 20 str; yellow - 10 strength 10 haste [if the socket bonus is at least 1 str/agi]) and not using things such as BQL neck and EoF cloak if you have Winding Sheet and Penumbra Pendant.

  2. Umm, i have to disagree with Rifokelt.
    U lose arround 4% Haste and Armor Penetration, and 20 Strangth if u go for Expertise cap.
    With the current state of Expertise (cap beeing more than 26), its not a bad idea to cap it if u gey anoyed by those Dodged attacks. On top of that its easy to do it as u saw from the item build i linked in the guide...
    In the end its a matter of luck and personal preference.
    As said, after Boss dodged my Plague Strike 3 times in a row i decided to go for Expertise cap over Haste and Armor Pen in order to have a healty rotation.
    If u feel lucky tho, u shouldnt cap it i guess...

  3. So long as 3 > 2 and the guide is about how to maximise on your potential damage there's no real point in going for the expertise cap unless you have some serious OCD problems (which would also have no place here). Both haste and arp are much more valuable in pure gem/hybrid gem and on item combos.
    Edited: April 25, 2017

  4. I dont see how 5+/100 dodged Melee attacks are better than 4 extra u would get from Haste.
    I also dont see how 4% Armor Pen is more valuable than a good rotation. Every dodged Plague Strike will delay ur rotation by 1+ sec, and if u are unlucky and get dodged multiple times while running Dirge u can end up having a lot of Runic Power u cant spend...
    Im not saying one item build is better than the other, cos they are both situational, and will suit players based on their own playstile.
    I think i linked almost every item build u can use, so il let them chose which are better for them. I personaly prefer Exp cap, u dont, someone else might go for something third, so yea... Aslong as it works and u do great DPS it doesnt matter.

  5. I dont see how 5+/100 dodged Melee attacks are better than 4 extra u would get from Haste.
    I also dont see how 4% Armor Pen is more valuable than a good rotation.
    Equivalence points. These were researched quite a bit for unholy dks and the "presumed" ones that are on the revived EJ guide are very close to what I've been tinkering with a sim (the difference between each ones was something trivial like 0.1-0.3). If you were to check there you'd see that both haste and arp are significantly higher on your priority list than expertise is. Unless somehow 1.97 > 2.97 or 1.97 > 2.87 there's no room for any preferences if you want to perform to your absolute potential.

  6. Sim =/ how u should itemise.
    Yes i saw the guide and i know the prios, but, ignoring the fact that this is not retail and that we have broken Expertise here, i still prefer the way i play over the one u are suggesting.
    I really dont see how getting dodged when u have to burst something asap is helpfull but AGAIN, i linked all the builds (will fix some misslinks), chose w/e u want.
    After/if they fix Expertise i might change back to "retail bis" list.

  7. In much the same way as a ret would gain more by gemming hybrid haste over hybrid crit and canceling chaos bane instead of keeping it you'd gain by not going for expertise when there are other more powerful stats presented to the table. If you can't do the simple math when it comes to EPs and see that you're effectively wasting sockets/item slots on smaller dps gains then there's really nothing else I wish to add to this topic.

  8. I gem hybrid crit gems on my Ret Pala rather than going haste.
    I gem hybrid crit gems and use Accuracy/110 AP in offhand over Berserking on my Fury War rather than going for more AP.
    I cap expertise on my Unholy DK rather than going some minor haste and arp.

    I do more than enough DPS and am perfectly happy about how much that is, so i dont care about maximising that last 1% of my overall DPS cos RNG is a greater Judge at that point than those stats.

    I dont just come up with some random **** on my own, i test and see how itemisations and suggestions from "pro retail ppl" work, after which i see if i can do something to improve them based on my expirience and playstile.

    If something else works for u, great, keep doin what u are doin, i tryed that alrdy and i am happy with what i do atm. :)

  9. May 26, 2017  

  10. May 26, 2017  
    I doubt he is trolling tho, and again, he is right.
    When it comes to using sims and stat value in numbers from retail, not capping expertise should provide u with more DPS.

    However, i persinaly like a healty rotation. That is the one and only reason i always go for the expertise cap, since it so easy to get it.
    On top of that, if im unlucky (which i ussualy am when it comes to RNG constantly), if i get Dodged on Melee attacks a lot, that Haste loses its value completely. So in the end, its all up to u if u wana dance with RNG in order to maximise ur DPS by a small amount i guess. :D

    This guide needs a lot of work.
    Im working on fixing the itemisations first, adding some sections and fixing the rotation part, fixing everything else, and after that i might even visualy update the whole guide.

    For now, take everything that its in the guide as something u could try and test urself, since again, it needs a lot of work and is far away from beeing perfect.
    It will most likely be done next weekend (hopefully). :D

  11. May 27, 2017  
    I will try to explain why going for expertise isn't a good idea on a unholy dk.

    Hit affects all of your attacks, not beint caped hurts
    Crit affects all of your attacks, but isn't that powerful
    Arpen affects most of your attacks and scales very well with itself
    Haste affects only white swings and the ghoul but is worthwhile

    Expertise affects white swings and strikes. Striles runes get refunded on a dodge/parry and recasting those often isn't that much of a loss because there are gaps in the uh rotation. There is also a big enough part of your damage that isn't modified by expertise (diseases, coil, unholy blight, wandering plague, dnd), which makes the value of expertise go down.

    This is mostly why uh dk don't tend to go for an expertise cap in order to maximize DPS.

  12. May 27, 2017  
    @muscadet

    U can chose btwn:
    12% Haste, 56% Armor Pen, 5 Expertise
    and
    8% Haste, 52% Armor Pen, 26 Expertise
    Rest of the stats: Attack Power, Crit, Hit, will remain almost exactly the same (more or less).

    How i see it, going for Expertise would be better than going for Haste.
    It wont matter how much Haste u get (and Armor Penetration), if all of those extra attacks get dodged, and on top of that some of our strikes get dodged aswell, making us cast less abilities overall in the end cos we had to recast them.
    Also, if u have to do Plague Strikes 3 times in order to actualy hit it (yes, this happened to me, PS beeing dodged 3 times in a ROW), i really dont see how is Haste worth more in this case...
    Since Expertise is bugged on Warmane, i actualy got my Plague Strike dodged 2 times in a row ONCE, so u kinda never know...

    In the end it all comes to personal preference. U can do awesome DPS with both sets. RNG will decide who wins...
    If u can Expertise u wont lose 50% of ur DMG.
    If u go for Extra Haste and Armor Pen u wont gain 50% of total DMG if u are lucky and not a single dodge happens.
    If u dont cap Expertise and u get dodged couple of times, especialy if it happens in a row, it could hurt ur DPS.
    Dodge can happen even if u cap expertise, but it happens maybe once per 10 Boss fights, sometimes not even once...
    So yea, chose what u think works best for u...

    Again, i like to play it safe, and i love having healty rotation (on top of all that RNG doesnt like me 90% of the times), so i decide to go for that expertise cap.
    If u feel lucky, fak expertise and get those extra stats.

  13. May 28, 2017  
    You forgot one key thing. the rune grace period. uh rotation can afford to dodge with no issue since it activates only when it goes to CD if you dodge it still doesn't activate. and also this rumor about expertise being higher than 26 is getting tiresome.

    I run with 26 expertise and never gotten a dodge. if you or anyone else is getting dodged then basically you were not standing behind the boss. even if your standing by the side your angle matters.

  14. May 28, 2017  
    Oh right, i did forget about that...
    With that it actualy makes less sence to me tbh (not capping Expertise).
    I dont know about u but with only 1/2 Dirge i have basicly every GCD filled.
    Sure i could lose/skip Horn of Winter here and there, but i like to refresh it when i can cos sometimes i dont even have a GCD for that...
    With 2/2 Dirge and a Resto Druid i basicly have more Runic Power than i can spend and i have to skip doing Blood Strike in order to lose that Runic Power, so yea, i know that was one of the main reasons DKs on retail didnt want to cap expertise duo to free GCD per cycle, but that doesnt happen to me often.
    And as said, it if happens to anyone out there, feel free to go for the itemisation without expertise cap. :D

    As for those Dodges i expirienced, it ussualy happens on bosses like DBS, Festergut, Rotface, BQL, basicly tank and spank fights when it comes to DPS, and im ussualy behind the target yes. Thats why i notice it, and why i was salty at the start.
    I dont know, as said, dodge might happend every 10th+ boss if u are capped, sometimes it wont, but im not the first nor the last person that had a dodged attack even tho im is on 26 exp.
    And from what i know, it wont matter from where u attack the boss. It always has 6.5% dodge chance, rear, sides, front.
    The only diference is that u lose the parry % if u attack from rear/sides.
    Or it doesnt work like that?

    For example, my Fury warrior. Before i was Human i had 26 exp on my offhand, and it sometimes got dodged (such salt).
    Now that its on 29 duo to racial, it didnt happen so far...

    I might be wrong, and expertise might be completely fine (when it comes to dodge part), but u never know with Warmane when it comes to this stat. :D

  15. May 28, 2017  
    How does it make less sense to not cap expertise due to rune grace period though? lets assume we have 2dk, one with 26 expertise the other with 24.

    DK A) 26expertise hits SS (depending how long he waited till using, but for uh usually instant) so 10sec CD on rune
    DK B) 24expertise gets SS dodge, waits 1second then does SS. 9 sec CD

    in 10seconds both dks will SS. no loss whatsoever.

    and regarding skipping BS for deathcoil, I don't really see it that relevant with exp capping or not capping. both face the same issue. as long as you have Desolation up. DC>BS
    Edited: May 28, 2017 Reason: regarding attacking from side/front that is defiantly correct, should of added parry not dodge

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