1. Most of these changes (if not all) are effecting DPS more than tanking.
    Damage is important to a tank, because damage is threat. Meanwhile, he was one of those guys arguing for Havoc's Call on a Prot Paladin 'cause threat issues.
    U lose most of great tanking low and mid tear talents of every tree in order to reach Ebon Plaguebringer. Other than that, there is not a single one defencive talent in Unholy Tree exept Bone Shield, and Anty Magic Zone which is basicly a 2min CD for 1 spell apsorb aka crap.
    So you're telling me Desecration, Magic Suppression, Reaping, Master of Ghouls, Desolation, Improved Unholy Presence, and Rage of Rivendare have ZERO use to a tank?

    The only thing u can do is to stop specing in Unholy talent tree as soon as u reach Bone Shield and 1/3 Crypt Fever (for extra DS healing), in order to get Veteran of Third War and 8 talent points in Frost. But even so, as soon as u lose both Bone Shield and Icebound u are basicly a DPS in tank gear since u have no passive defencives...

    If u want to play it for fun do it. It simply isnt as good as Bloof when it comes to ICC tanking.
    So what passive defensive, as you put it, does Blood have that Unholy doesn't? Will of the Necropolis? That's done better by a Paladin. What else?
    It isn't as good as Blood? So? You do realize that just because something isn't "best" (even if that amounts to an opinion), that doesn't make the other specs useless, right? Nevermind that a proper and serious tank is going to use multiple specs to their advantage, as some have strengths on some encounters over others.

    Hell, you haven't even commented on the changes to Army of the Dead.

  2. Ok first to get some things out of the way before i answer everything.

    I wont argue for anyone, im talking from a DK perspective trying to give more information to everyone new to the game. So when i talk i talk for myself and noone else. I wont defend anyone nor will i ask someone to defend me... All i did was a reply to the tslents u linked that changed. I tought that with them u wer defending ur point: Unholy>=Blood and i tryed to argue with it since i disagree. When it comes to the comment before mine, there is no need to call out ppl nor mock them. The point of forums and this guide is to try and give shorcuts to players that are new to the game so they dont have to repeat our mistakes...

  3. I won't say Unholy>Blood in ICC. Nor will I ever. I'm sorry if you misunderstood that from me. However, I will state that Unholy is capable of tanking the raid.

  4. Now to answer some things u adressed when it comes to tanking...

    Damage might be important for other classes. For DKs its not so much... Why? Icy Touch. Again, this ability alone will provide u with more threat than all other abilities combined. Buffing Icy Touch will improve ur threat, buffing ur melee DMG wont.
    When it comes to paladins, ive tanked LK with Milthrios and had no aggro issues so u no u dont need Havoc. U can use it if u like but its not 100% needed.

    They dont have ZERO use for tanking, but other talent trees have same talents (maybe even better), and in return u get more defencive talents/CDs aswell on top of that.

    Yes, Paladins have Argent Defender which is idd better, BUT, that doesnt change the fact that will of necro is op as fak. In fights like Halion and LK u are basicly constantly beeing pushed below 35% HP which only increases value of this talent.

    When it comes to Tanking and DPSing there are two ways u can go.
    1: u can get the BEST spec there is and carry others.
    2: u can get fun spec and get carried.
    I LOVE assasination Rogue, sadly it sucks dicks. Sure il play it when i am 100% sure that i wont be a dead weight to the raid, but otherwise i will always be Combat.
    Same goes when it comes to PvE Warrior Arms vs Fury. I love playing Arms in PvE but Fury rapes it when it comes to DPS.
    And i doubt most of players out there can afford to have both specs - Tank Specs. They eather PvP or DPS sometimes... But yea, if u can afford to get a offspec thats also tank spec, get something usefull i guess. Altho i rly dont see any ICC encounter that can be tanked by Unholy tank better.

    I linked AotD as a major defencivr CD in the guide.

    Overall guide is NOT yet finished.
    My main reason of even posting a tank guide was to link proper talents and to try and explain how spells work.
    I saw many useless talents on almost every VoA DK tank spec (heart strike, epidemic, ...), and on top of that, they kept losing aggro duo to no IT spam which made me mad when boss killed me.
    I will work on the guide on this or next weekend but my priority is to finish both DPS guides first. Since i can afford to do it on saturdays only its taking so long. But u can still find almost every info u need in them and get to the overall conclusion urself.

  5. And i know every DK spec is capable of tanking, and again, if u love and enjoy playing something that i didnt link or said in the guide and its working for u and ur guild/friends than keep doin what u are doin.
    The main reason i made my guides is cos i saw way too many missinformations that new players cant see (see as missinformation and they follow them blindly). That can result in waste of money on wrong items, waste of time on playing wrong specs, low DPS in raids, bad tanking, resulting in getting kicked from the guilds and so on...

    And also there wer way too many questions about stuff so i tryed to gather everything on one place cos i know myself how frustrating it is when u cant find some informations that u are interested in, cos u want to improve as a player.

    Again, whole point of guides is to try and help new players get some roots and for players overall to try and improve. If i offended someone im sorry, sometimes i can be a hard person to argue with cos i always think im 1000% right when im hotheaded.
    Think with ur own heads and read what game offers u. If everyone read every spell and tought how they could work combined there wouldnt be any need for guides exept for the info about caps and stuff like that.
    And, for my last again, practice. There is no shortcut to becoming a good player. Like most of things in ur life u need to work for it.

    Best of luck.

  6. Mistakes in language are duo to my bad Engrish and trying to post **** via Android phone. Its aids as fak, dont try it if u dont have to...

  7. UH dk tanking is viable for RS 25 hc Add tanking. That's the only end-game raid I've found it to be useful. The fact that I can put heavy aoe threat on adds and provide ebon plaguebringer debuff for increased magic dmg to ALL adds is invaluable for the raid.

  8. Mistakes in language are duo to my bad Engrish and trying to post **** via Android phone. Its aids as fak, dont try it if u dont have to...
    No worries. I know you're helping out with your guide best you can. I do appreciate your contributions. I'm sure many others do as well. With that said, I understand Unholy isn't popular for ICC. I also don't expect it to be. And it's definitely not a spec anyone should bother with in the raid if they don't have experience with it, since 90% of the time Blood or Frost will be better for ICC and the player's raid group. So I completely understand why you didn't include it in your guide. My initial post here in this thread was just me being sad about Unholy being unpopular. I would apologize for triggering the other players and causing them to post unwanted material, however I don't feel that's my fault, as those posts were unnecessary on their part. But I'll do my best not to feed them for the sake of your guide. I also appreciate your understanding and diligence on the subjects we've discussed. These aren't qualities I've found to be too common around here, unfortunately. I've cleaned up the latest mess that I and others have made. My apologies. I also apologize for being rude to you earlier in the thread.

  9. that 3rd page was fun to read before it was taken down hehexd

    cool text u got here gnibo i just want to mention that parry haste should only work on sindra, lady deathwhisper and halion but sindra/halion are the only actually challenging bosses if parry haste does occur

    personally i highly recommend tanks to pick up expertise setup which consists of t10 legs, glorenzelg, vdw boots, some hybrid gems on red slots (guardian's dreadstone) and expertise food because at the very least you will be prepared when fix actually hits live realms.

    oh btw highly advise not to use parry+stam gems, u got too much parry rating from forceful deflection already, better off to go with doge+stam/agi+stam/exp+stam


    also, maybe some videos of dk tanking stuff, yesyes?

  10. I really dont care what people argue about in the thread aslong as it is normal and civilised. Its only game, no meed to get all med and personal about it.
    Any argument will get some answers for new players that have those questions, so keep up with them without bad words or deleted comments please.

    @Hera, i was waiting for u scrub.
    Guide is still aids, and i really didnt expect it to be as popular as others. Main idea was to link proper specs and explain how to get Threat on ur target and how to use CDs. I see now that i will have to work more on it i guess.
    U can link ur own videos if u want, id actualy love that...
    Or should we ask Chaotich to borrow us some of his great tanking videos? YesSiOui?

  11. I really dont care what people argue about in the thread aslong as it is normal and civilised. Its only game, no meed to get all med and personal about it.
    Any argument will get some answers for new players that have those questions, so keep up with them without bad words or deleted comments please.
    Sure thing, however I have no patience left for egos. I also have to enforce the rules of derailing threads. There are threads up for Unholy, if that is what they wish to discuss.

  12. Damage is important to a tank, because damage is threat. Meanwhile, he was one of those guys arguing for Havoc's Call on a Prot Paladin 'cause threat issues.
    I was never really a proponent of Havoc's. I don't like it myself, I just see its merits.

    So you're telling me Desecration, Magic Suppression, Reaping, Master of Ghouls, Desolation, Improved Unholy Presence, and Rage of Rivendare have ZERO use to a tank?
    Very little use to a DK tank that you're trying to build up into an efficient boss-tanker, especially when that comes at the cost of other valuable survivability talents like Rune Tap and Veteran of the 3rd War from the Blood tree.

    So what passive defensive, as you put it, does Blood have that Unholy doesn't? Will of the Necropolis? That's done better by a Paladin. What else?
    This isn't even an argument.

    We're not comparing DK's and Pallies. We're comparing DK tanks with WotN to DK tanks without. Will of the Necropolis cuts all damage below 35% Hp by an extra 15%. Essentially, the last 35% of your HP is 1/0.85 = 17.6% more valuable. In terms of EHP, this can be viewed to be an overall health multiplier of around 6.2%. But it's slightly better than this because EHP achieved from taking less damage means you're more efficiently healed up. That 6.2% Stamina by itself is a invaluable amount, and this is assuming the Unholy tank you're comparing against has Veteran of the 3rd War + Rune Tap.

    Sure thing, however I have no patience left for egos.
    Don't think you could be projecting harder if you tried at this point.

    I also have to enforce the rules of derailing threads.
    Discussing DK tankiness with or without certain talents or with a different spec is within the scope of this guide. This isn't a Blood tank guide.

  13. So what are you arguing again? That one should, and I quote, "NEVER" tank as Unholy in "end game raiding"? Do you honestly think that is valid? That Unholy is useless in ALL of this expansion's raid content? Because if you're honestly going to argue this, you are objectively wrong. There are no opinions or two ways about it. So unless you're trying to save-face, I'd suggest you stick to what is actually relevant to the thread - discussions of Frost and Blood, which is what the thread covers.

  14. That Blood is the best go-to spec 90% of the time because of its superiority in the area of EHP that it enjoys largely because of Will of the Necropolis, and that Unholy is more a niche spec instead.

  15. Well i wanted to make all in one tank guide with this thread, the only reason i didnt add Unholy Talents or how to play it is cos i dont consider it usefull compared to other two specs. Its playable as Blood DK DPS is, but if u can chose out of 3 specs, u should chose for eather Blood or Frost for tanking (Unholy or Frost for DPSing).

    Il work on this guide this weekend and add Unholy tank part aswell if anyone is interested in trying it out i guess...

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