WotLK Frost vs Unholy

[football77]

I'm currently at 5k gs (this isn't a good metric for gear but it is what it is). I have 4 piece t9 set (blood plague can crit) At what point does unnholy dps equal frost dps? I tried both today and realized that I do almost double dps as frost

[Whiteman]

frost will be better then unholy till the end on single target

[Mercy]

frost will be better then unholy till the end on single target

Doesn't start out that way though.

[football77]

Doesn't start out that way though.

what do you mean by this?

[sampiks]

frost - single target, unholy - aoe. Yes here and there unholy might outdps frost, but for most fight frost will always be first on single target dps

[trackerone]

frost - single target, unholy - aoe. Yes here and there unholy might outdps frost, but for most fight frost will always be first on single target dps

this is bcs gargoyle can cast under gcd cast which is 1,5 sec http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49206/summon-gargoyle ,here he can cast for even 0,4 secs what is pure bull**** :D

P.S By this I mean he can cast 0,4 secs but he should wait then 1,1 secs for another cast because he have global cooldown ...

[Cashroll]

At what point does unnholy dps equal frost dps?

From my experience (6 months) here on this server I will try as best as I can to answer your question.
First of all let's analyze some aspects of both specs, I'll start with Unholy.

Some know this spec as King of AoE DPS and no. #1 Raid Buffer on retail, casters love it due to Ebon Plague especially Shadow Priests which increases their overall damage by 4-5% (more or less) and much more useful than Frost in certain raids and cleave situations, such as ToC, ToGC, RS HC clearing the adds fast, LK HC etc. making Unholy indispensable to a raid. It sounds really cool on paper but in practice on this server it's rather not because bosses here have spell resistances, YES you've read it right bosses here happen to resist your spells and this is an anomaly because bosses in Vanilla used to have a small amount of magic resistance that was impossible to reduce through anything a player could do (that's why spell penetration has been a pvp-only stat) but that is no longer the case as no boss since then does and as a retail player since Vanilla I'm sure of my statements 100%, and as some of the Unholy damage comes from a magical source it is rather a bit undesirable to have more than 1 unholy DK per raid to provide the amazing Ebon Plague which is enough, not the mention the fact, some players here have reported Scourge Strike not working in the proper way as it doesn't do the whole shadow portion of the damage it does correctly as it's basing on the wrong formula and from my experience yes, it does seem to hit rather less than I was used to in retail back then, but not 100% sure about it if someone else has more information on the matter please provide so we can clear that up, but that doesn't mean you should ignore unholy totally as it would do way better than Frost at lower gear levels, due to Frost being so much gear dependent, because Frost's attacks come from a pure physical source (just like warriors) so it would be wise to stay unholy until you get better gear 6k+

Frost on the other hand it's the best spec to go in high end gear, and versatility, choose to stack ArP to become an unstoppable force in Single Target cases or stack Str and go Black Ice 5/5 to be more AoE oriented depends on your choice, style, comfort, enjoyment, and don't forget about your guild needs. From my personal preference I go full ArP because I enjoy zerging those bosses and my guild has pretty competent DKs and MDPS who know how to cleave so we don't lack that in our raids.
While Frost is not THAT potent on AoE cases, it can still go on par with Unholy here on this server, YES if you are competent enough to be aware of your surroundings, don't mistake your rotation, some RNGesus being at your side, you should be able to perform same if not better as an Unholy DK, and lastly Frost brings stuff to the table as well, Improved Icy Touch 3/3 slows melee and ranged attack speed by 6% on the target it helps the tank the whole fight since it's part of your rotation and scales first on your priority system. Improved Icy Talons 1/1 provide 20% melee haste, which is a significant DPS increase for melee in your raid, but the only downside this spec has as stated before you need to have good gear 4 parts T10 in order to be effective and have some impact in total damage output.

My advice: Stay unholy until you will get better gear, your DPS won't be amazing but you will somewhat have some utility to the raid which goes long way, offering benefits to the raid as a whole counts more than thinking about yourself and how you can benefit solely, and having that tier 4 bonus (blood plague crits) it's a very huge boost in AoE DPS you have no idea, I suggested to one of my fellow guild mates an Unholy DK to go 4 pieces of T9 in RS HC he has HC versions and he scaled 1st DPS on AoE when adds appeared and managed to sustain it nonetheless throughout the encounter, he was booming with AoE DPS like a boss easy breezy.
When you will get your hands on a better gear and along with gear + gems you can reach the ArP cap of 1400 or somewhere between 1380 - 1400 if you choose to go ArP, you can safely go Frost and start ripping those juciy OBs and KM FS on them bosses.
But overall all around here on Warmane: Frost > Unholy for PvE.

Since we talked a bit about both Unholy and Frost, let's mention Blood, best spec for DK in dealing Single Target DPS (in retail back in the WOTLK era), unfortunately Blood here is completely broken as DRW our most reliable CD and source of burst / sustain damage is totally broken as it not copies the correct amount of damage of your original attacks so stay away from it for now but when this will work, IF will ever work as intended I will immediately switch Blood.

Conclusion: This is a private server with its own core, not built upon the original source code, so not everything it's working there a lot of things to work upon but for now it will do as you won't find anything better than this in my opinion so that's why we must tweak the gear, stats, spec, rotations accordingly.

[Gnimo]

Both Unholy and Frost are great for single target and aoe DPS.
Unholy is better when it comes to constant AoE DPS, while Frost depends on Killing Machine and Rime talent procs.
Frost is better when it comes to constant single target DPS, while Unholy depends on which proc u will get for Gargoyle from DBW and how much ur Death Coil and SS will crit (for some reason both of these spells are ******ed, sometimes doin 40% sometimes doin 60% crit).
Also Pet dmg as Unholy is a bit lower if u ask me but again, both specs are equal when it comes to overall DPS.

What makes the diference? Ur own playstyle and preferences.

If u feel better when u play as Unholy/Frost u will do more DPS. So try out both and see for urself.

One thing is sertain tho, FROST is and awlays will be better when it comes to early game aka gearing stage. Reason is simple, high crit chance from talents. But again, if u are strugleing with Frost rotation and u feel great playing Unholy, keep playing Unholy.

I made couple of guides that could help u with ur choice and how to get started / improve as a player.
Check them out i guess but remember, u have to know ur class/slells/talents, how they work combined, and practice a lot in order to become good. Nothing else will help u.
Best of luck.

P.S. @trackerone
Gargoyle casts a SPELL.
SPELL cooldown can be reduced by haste so even if u are right GCD should be 1sec minimum, not 1.5sec.
On top of that, have in mind that the Gargoyle u linked might not be the WotLK version of spell.

Edit: There is a reasom why FROST is one world better for Herald of the Titans achivement than Unholy (and will actualy top DPS on that boss/encounter, compared to other Ulduar geared classes). Better talents that does not require great gear and unique raid buff so yea, its not true that Unholy is better when u have no gear...

Edit2: get rekt trm90 :D

[trm90]

@Cashroll
Fdk being a gear dependent spec is false, well yes it will perform better with the end game arp items but doesn't mean it's only worth going frost only at that point. as a matter of fact I'd take an unpopular opinion and argue that frost is one of the least gear dependent specs.

the only time fdk will ever beat uh in AoE dps is with few low hp mobs like vdw suppressors, but when it comes to more meaty mobs like valky then uh all the way.

EDIT: gnimo commenetd a sec earlier and made this comment moot _l_

[Cashroll]

Every melee DPS overall is way dependent on weapons, Frost spec for the case, even if you get non stop KM procs and etc, if you have trash weapons you do trash dps, since most attacks come from physical source and if you don't have the means to cap your expertise, hit, ArP if you may from gear + gems = trash overall. Hence gear dependent use your brain and think for a minute. Outside ICC frost is not THAT good compared to Unholy for instance take the T9 4 part bonus, it was MADE to fit the ToC ToGC patch perfectly heavy cleave raid, but in iCC? not that much. Frost shines in ICC + RS, outside of those Unholy + Blood rule especially in Ulduar Blood was KING in retail, stop spreading false facts. And Unholy here is not working as intended NOT BY FAR, he is merely a shadow of his former self here being eclipsed by Frost in most situations.
With that I close my case, as there will always be people who go insane trying to prove the opposite so no point in arguing further, wish you all the best.

[trm90]

hmm uld blood at the time had completely different talents, so please either stay relevant or go make a rant thread.

trash wpn=trash dps applies for any mdps even to uh in a lesser extent so I don't see what you're trying to prove here, and yes please no point in arguing further if you're going to continue throwing random crap and seeing what sticks....

And if you read his post, you can clearly see that he said he nearly doubled his dps after changing to frost.

[Gnimo]

As someone that played on retail from day 1 untill RS release, and someone who is playing on warmane for 5+ years (3 years playing only DK) i can tell u this:

Retail naxx patch: top DPS spec was Blood DK
Mainly cos other specs sucked. Blood was played for PvP, tanking, PvE dps, everything...

Retail ulduar patch: top DPS was two-handed Frost DK
Talents wer buffed so hard DKs wer topping everyone.

Retail ToC patch: top DPS was two hander Frost or Unholy DK, cant remember this one correctly. All i know is that at one point Frost Strike got nerfed, Scourge Strike got buffed so hard it actualy hit for 200k shadow dmg with that 100% DMG buff from Valks (yes with ToC gear) so Unholy took over in the end...

Retail ICC patch:
Unholy was dominating at start, untill they added Threat of Thasarian and buffed Nerves of Cold Steel, and ppl didnt have nor cared to get good 1handed weps for it, AND cos SS was still crazy.
After they nerfed SS (the version we have now) and buffed Frost talents (and ppl getting gear for it) two specs wer both equaly viable. Frost > Unholy when it comes to DPS untill ppl got Shadowmourne, but the main reasons for chosing one of them was what ur guild needed.

Warmane:
I tested all builds and as said both are viable and same more or less when it comes to end game.
Trough gearing stages Frost is better. If u ever tryed going for Herald u should know that at BiS 226 itemisation Frost wins over Unholy always. Frost wins over every DPS, and goes equal with Arcane Mage more or less...

@Cashroll
Its not us who spread false informatio its u.
Its maybe harder to get 2x 232 itlvl one handers at start than it is to get 1x two hander, but thats not the reason u should go for Unholy, nor u will win as Unholy if u have equal quality weps.

@everyone new to the game.
Agains, its same ****, what u feel like playing better will in the end be better. Try out both and see for urself.
After u cap hit and exp at start only diference when it comes to gear is which wep u use, so if u have two hander and 2x one handers u can do both.

[dike]

release of RS trinkets Single target dps chart: 1. Blood 2. Frost . 3 Unholy

[Gnimo]

Warmane dps chart:
Fury warrior > big pile of crep > Blood dk
Since ur bringing some offtopic info...

Blood DK (part from beeing bugged) is a wasted raid slot, same as Assasination Rogue (sadly cos i like both). Sure u can play it but u wont do any amazing dps nor will u help the raid in any way (when it comes to buffs/debuffs).

U have to have in mind that buffs u bring to the raid should be considered when u look at ur overall DPS.

Frost has 20% melee haste aura that noone else has.

Unholy has 13% spell DMG increase on any target thats been infected with ur diseases and 30% extra DMG on diseases for other DKs and Spriests, and noone else can bring that to the raid (13% spell dmg increase from FF and CoE doesnt count cos they cant be spreaded on multiple targets).

Blood has 10% atk power aura that every Hunter u have in raid also brings, and the DPS of Blood dks isnt anything special. Nor it will be if they fix DRW...

Looking at overall recount from 1st trash pack pull till LK is dead:
Unholy > Frost > Blood.

And i rly dont see how Sharpened Twilight Scale buffs one DK spec more than the other. Its top bis for all 3 specs... But i guess spreading missinformation and some random stuff is a thing on forums.

Before u start building some "retail facts" trying to prove that Blood DK is actualy valuable, there is a good reason why 99% of the raids do not use one single Blood DK. And i also dont see a Blood DK in any Lich King retail kill (world first nor fastest kill).

Lich King dps chart:
Unholy > Frost > Blood

Halion dps chart:
Unholy - outside / Frost > Blood - inside

Profesor Putricide:
Unholy > Frost > Blood

Sindra:
Unholy > Frost > Blood

[Gnimo]

Ahahahaha welcome to warmane forums, where every scrub that cant bring facts and defend himself calls u a liar or a nub. Are u a SJW? Did i hurt ur feelings? :'(

Maybe try making a guide urself? Id love to see that tbh...

FUN FACT (****** ALERT):
Bosses are RESISTING partialy when it comes to spell dmg duo to beeing a target with HIGHER LEVEL (Boss targets are lvl 83, 3 levels above our own). This was also a thing on RETAIL that u played for such long time.
This is why pvp and lvl 80 mob hit cap is only 5% and Boss cap is 8%.
And no, spell penetration cant help u with this cos bosses DO NOT have resistance like players in PvP do, they are 3 level higher than us and thats why they resist 6% of total dmg we do on them, if i remember correctly and there is nothing u can do about it.
U could actualy wowwiki this but i guess u are too good for that mr retail veteran player.

Best of Luck, Glubo.