Raid difficulty

[Chniourf]

Hi,
Since the opinions seemed to vastly differ regarding this subject and now everyone is starting to agree that Karazhan is currently "post nerf" : Is it possible to have a clear answer on how is the raid difficulty on Outland for all tiers (from T4 to T6.5) ?

- Blizzlike Post Nerf
- Blizzlike Pre Nerf
- Custom Nerf
- Custom increased difficulty (Even if KZ seems to be spared)

Thank you !

[Chniourf]

No clear statements about this in all the announcements I could read about Outland realm and the staff keeps avoiding this kind of question... What the hell is going on here ?

[Zhenx]

The problem might be that the Outland Devs probably didnt even play retail BC seeing as both raids & dungeon mechanics are scripted/tuned dog****. As a retail BC player i notice alot of odd ****.

[Nailter]

I am also curious about this as I went to this server thinking its pre-nerf, if the raids are post nerf that would completely ruin my and my guilds experience.

Can we get a clear statement on this please?

I really hope I have not wasted 50 euro and my time on this.

Thank you
Kind regards

[NiceGuyLarry]

I am also curious about this as I went to this server thinking its pre-nerf, if the raids are post nerf that would completely ruin my and my guilds experience.

Can we get a clear statement on this please?

I really hope I have not wasted 50 euro and my time on this.

Thank you
Kind regards

Well, even with pre-nerf values the content would be easier than blizzlike due to 2.4.3 talents.

[Nailter]

Well, even with pre-nerf values the content would be easier than blizzlike due to 2.4.3 talents.

You are right of course, but still compared to this it is small thing.

[matthewh69]

Medivhs where the hard content will be boys, or so they said. Enjoy leveling on there.

x1 tbc priv server LOL

From what I have read nobody can even be sure what the pre nerf values were.

Besides its not exactly hard to see its obviously post nerf, prince was downed like 2 days after the server dropped.

Honestly I have to agree with zhenx to a degree...well in as much as I feel like they are just using outland to get the raids fixed up before they tune them harder and put them on medivh. I mean gruul went to 9 growths and never grew any larger, mag totally impossible. I would think the ptr would catch these things...? but I guess outland is the test server and medivh will be dogs bollocks. too bad hardly anybody will level on there to even experience the fine tuned content.

[Nailter]

Medivhs where the hard content will be boys, or so they said. Enjoy leveling on there.

x1 tbc priv server LOL

From what I have read nobody can even be sure what the pre nerf values were.

Besides its not exactly hard to see its obviously post nerf, prince was downed like 2 days after the server dropped.

Honestly I have to agree with zhenx to a degree...well in as much as I feel like they are just using outland to get the raids fixed up before they tune them harder and put them on medivh. I mean gruul went to 9 growths and never grew any larger, mag totally impossible. I would think the ptr would catch these things...? but I guess outland is the test server and medivh will be dogs bollocks. too bad hardly anybody will level on there to even experience the fine tuned content.

If there is no way to tell pre nerf status, I would rather make it harder with potential nerf in future. I though this would be covered as server presented self as 1x rate (except for xp) and progression based.

Hopefully someone will adress this as this makes really demotivated.

[Jadoo]

Bosses are nerfed. Nightbane & Mag are bugged (Nightbane resets aggro upon flying into the air, not when landing meaning healers are going to get killed & They "fixed" Mag by stunning him instead of actually fixing the issue making the beams sometimes appear directly after eachother). Everything else seems to be relativly fine.

[Chniourf]

They keep all the raid attunements and lock heroics with reveded reputations. What's the point in providing raids in their post-nerf version ? (And why we cannot have a clear answer ?.....)

[IcarNS]

There have been answers from the Staff regarding these questions.

Proterean stated that Medivh's content is pre-nerf.

To clarify what challenging means, it mostly means what's considered in the community as 'pre-nerf'.

If they say a server has challenging hardcore content and they mean with that that it is a "pre-nerf" content, it is very obvious that the realm with no challenging hardcore content is "post-nerf".

Also, note that in the same thread the quote is from it reads "Challenging hardcore raid content."

[Chniourf]

We still have to suppose it and we don't have anything more.

[Hurzfug]

From what I have read nobody can even be sure what the pre nerf values were.

Well, it depends. There's no videos of first clears of Karazhan but there is evidence of pre-2.1 Kara as well as some documented changes, including some buffs(!). There's some reason to believe some bosses were tougher than they were by the end of 2.0.12 patch, but ultimately Kara probably wasn't much tougher during the first weeks.

For 25-man raids there is video evidence of the first kills (besides Vashj, because Nihilum presumably exploited the encounter) so you could in principle extract values looking at the videos, but there's also direct and indirect evidence of encounters receiving even substantial changes before they were killed (for example, http://web.archive.org/web/201211100..._order_ssc/p5/ claims Morogrim used to have water elemental adds too and a mob called Waterwalking Elemental with T5 raid tuned stats existed in Blizzard's databases as evidenced by WoW Bestiary, but only two guilds even saw that state of the encounter). So if you are looking for most original encounters then tough luck, but for world first state you could.

Besides its not exactly hard to see its obviously post nerf, prince was downed like 2 days after the server dropped.

With optimized raid comps DPS is going to be way higher than what more geared retail guilds had simply through virtue of stacking useful classes irregardless of gear, same with healing (because we actually know to use shadow priests now, not too many of those coming from Naxx). Tank survivability in P2 is the limiting factor, but people have done Prince on servers that certainly have higher damage and health than it ever was on retail with just optimized questing gear and a few normal dungeon drops. Kara was never particularly difficult on retail and any content that retail guilds managed to do would be easy for modern min/maxers.

Of course, that doesn't mean the values are correct even for "post-nerf". Indeed, because there's no accessible "official" resources (say, datamined values in Wowhead, but unfortunately damage was never recorded), it's not too unlikely the developers didn't do any research to get "correct" values for any patch and just made up something that seemed right to them at the time, inputted often times hilariously inaccurate values from Wowwiki, or even left whatever values there were in open source emulation, and subsequently they might even be lower than the most nerfed values retail had. You can find 2.3 values as listed in World of Warcraft Bestiary here (https://github.com/Schaka/TBC-research/issues/22), if anyone's interested then they can try to vet the server values against those. Given the intent apparently is to have 2.4.3 values, those should be the exact values retail had at that point of time.

And of course, values aside, content can be positively or negatively bugged (someone mentioned limited growths on Gruul, that would effectively trivialize the encounter even if he had 10M health) and there can be indirect nerfs or buffs from classes or other mechanics working incorrectly (a class does too much damage -> indirect nerf to content).

[Nailter]

They keep all the raid attunements and lock heroics with reveded reputations. What's the point in providing raids in their post-nerf version ? (And why we cannot have a clear answer ?.....)

I couldnt agree more, and I dont understand why this was not told before the release I wouldnt even create a character on Outland in such a case and waited for the Medivh.
This should be communicate ahead, I am very disappointed.