Burning Crusade Protection Warrior Can not keep aggro!

[jiggil09]

Ok so i have been playing a Prot warrior for 1 week now.
I have been gearing alot trying to get the best gear possible and i have done so.
In the start i was having alot of problems with threat and i taught it was just me having bad gear.
At the moment i got 2.2K+ Gearscore yet i cant seem to keep aggro for ****. (Gigathor is the name of my Prot Warrior)
I do everything perfectly yet my aggro just does not keep hold.
I really think this is bugged because i know 100% sure that i should be keeping aggro fine with the rotation im using.
Im spending my rage well even weaving Heroic Strike into the rotation to not get rage capped.
But in dungeons i just srsly cant keep aggro.
On trash pulls i have taunt, thunderclap and Shield slam on constant CD.
I even Devastate every single mob just to make sure i spread my Treat.
And i know its not just me a fellow warrior in my guild is also having these problems.

Thanks in advance for responding,

Gigathor

P.s.
Because of this i feel like playing warrior tank is just the worst. I have been playing warrior tanks for years and in almost every expantion of wow. But never have i had this much trouble with Threat.

[omgitsidirss]

Geared warrior tank cant keep aggro on single target mob when a fresh 70 is attacking it too. its pathetic.. plizz fix

[Lezschooch]

Warriors truly struggle with AoE threat in this patch, the game is still relatively imba in BC compared to later versions. Warriors produce big single target threat with sunder armor spam, shield slam and retaliate but with TC is capped at 4 targets so they seriously lack in AoE when compared to the other tanking classes. Since this is a relatively new server and a large portion of the population is more familiar with mechanics from different game versions they might not be playing with these limitations in mind, try communicating with your dps (mages especially) to not go all out on AoE until after the second TC goes down or to simply go ST. Don't let the lack of AoE get you dow other tanks are jealous of that shield block.

tl;dr it's *probably* not you, it's the class and other people not being familiar with the class and it's limitations.

[gigathor]

And yes ofc i do i always tell them to go slow on dps so that i can build up some threat. And to attack the marked targets acordingly like i said i got alot of Exp with warrior tanking over the years so thats not the problem. And when some one starts bursting X when i tell them to attack skull i just almost let them die but pick up the mob afterwards.

[bigbazz]

1. If you have any brains/dignity, stop using gearscore in TBC.

2. This is TBC, Warriors can't hold agro in dungeons, this is how it was. In the retail days there was a reason people wanted so much CC and there was a reason why "wait for 3 sunders" and "no AOE/cleave" were common requests from Warriors.

Warriors specialise in boss tanking, the single target threat on bosses is good but on multi target, on snap agro and dungeons Warriors always were terrible, because of the damage taken = rage compontent. This is just how it is in TBC.

[omgitsidirss]

Gearscore is fine to use for a estimate of what ilvl your gear is if you take in consideration your using the right stat/spec items. No need to get sand in your *****.

[gigathor]

@bigbazz ok first of all Gearscore is just for seeing what kind of gear people have. You are just taking it the wrong way cuz you dont get accepted into groups because of it. I hate that Gearscore is such a stigma in this comunity when it gets used wrong. Its a good addon that helps you with your own character progression and maybe even friend to friend competition like me and my friend. If i get into a dungeon group when there is a fresh level 70 with 1600 Gearscore i srsly dont care. Its just a number and that says nothing about the skill of a player. Thats what matters and not there Gearscore.

And second of all it still feels like then need to bump the number of threat generated up for warriors. Now i dont know if they can even do that but i guess we will have to wait and see.

Thanks alot for the responce tho

[DEDRICK]

Threat can be adjusted, threat was messed on the tests so they had to fix it, this also means threat values might not be blizzlike. I know what you are saying as I feel it myself sometimes, if you have multiple people pulling over 700+ you'll start to threat cap them because you are only outputting 750 TPS. But on the flipside if threat values aren't accurate then is Omen even accurate?

From the Omen2 description

Omen2 used what we called the Threat-2.0 library. This library was responsible for monitoring the combat log, spellcasting, buffs, debuffs, stances, talents and gear modifiers for calculating each individuals threat. Threat was calculated based on what was known or approximated from observed behaviors. Many abilities such as knockbacks were just assumed (to be a 50% threat reduction) as they were mostly impossible to confirm.

[gigathor]

@dedrick now that is something i can understand. I do have people in my group popping almost 1K DPS so then it does make sence that i cant keep aggro. Do you think that they can adjust the numbers up a bit or is that just not something that they will ever do?

Thanks alot for this reply!

[bigbazz]

@bigbazz ok first of all Gearscore is just for seeing what kind of gear people have. You are just taking it the wrong way cuz you dont get accepted into groups because of it. I hate that Gearscore is such a stigma in this comunity when it gets used wrong. Its a good addon that helps you with your own character progression and maybe even friend to friend competition like me and my friend. If i get into a dungeon group when there is a fresh level 70 with 1600 Gearscore i srsly dont care. Its just a number and that says nothing about the skill of a player. Thats what matters and not there Gearscore.

And second of all it still feels like then need to bump the number of threat generated up for warriors. Now i dont know if they can even do that but i guess we will have to wait and see.

Thanks alot for the responce tho

I don't get accepted into groups? I make my own groups, tank or dps and my character is already geared with many T4 BIS items. Don't get your feelings hurt just because I told you the truth as a knowledgable and experienced player.

Gearscore is bad because

ilvl does not dictate ultimate item quality in TBC, greens can be better than epics, specific items have extreme value where others do not. What actually matters are specific items, making hit caps... Not ilvl, and in the case of dps especially not generic stat counting.. You need to know that oh that green gun that scores low on gearscore happens to be the BIS pre raid item for dps warriors, barely replaced by karazhan epics. Or the fact that Ragesteel blue beats T4 with set bonus included, that clefthide quest legs are superior to epics from Mechanar... And every class has this, countless instances of this across the game. Such as items with specific schools of magic damage (Shadow/Fire/Holy etc) that are budgeted much higher than their quality might suggest.

Gearscore is just not cut out as an addon to work in TBC, it's a backport of an addon from late WOTLK, which means if you're using this addon to guage gearlevels you're literally encouraging people to be stupid and gear poorly just so they can fool the addon. if I were to gear my character specfically to gearscore I could get my GS up high while losing dps?

So no, Gearscore is not a good addon to help you with character progression...


And finally... No they don't need to bump up threat gen for Warriors, this is a TBC server and in TBC Warriors did no threat unless they were getting hit hard (so that rage is plentiful). I have no issues holding threat on bosses, we have people doing 1000 dps and I'm leaving them in the dust.. But on trash? Yes they can pull agro easily, we let the Pala tank deal with the trash while the Warrior tanks the boss, as it should be.

In dungeons? In the old days that's largely why CC was such a requirement, why strategy was devised around allowing the Warrior to build threat, why hunters were desired in groups for MD. Warriors are hard to kill, but can only hold agro on 2-3 mobs properly, and DPS have to learn to play the threat meters (which nobody here does) as a skill.

Gearscore is fine to use for a estimate of what ilvl your gear is if you take in consideration your using the right stat/spec items. No need to get sand in your *****.

Sorry I just find a lack of people willing to use their brains as insulting, especially when they try to infect this server with it. If you want an addon to track your own gear then install ratingbuster and set up a pawn string with custom weights tailored to your spec.

Keep plebscore out of TBC, let people learn how much hit rating is needed, how much spell damage/bonus healing, attack power, crit.. Let people learn what stats dictate a well geared player, what items dictate a well geared player.. Don't be a panda baby pretending you played in retail TBC while throwing your GS dick around like it means anything.

[Kiszh]

I agree keep gear score out of TBC. You will simply make it impossible for very geared fury warriors to join any groups because the addon doesn't account for correct gearing.

@bigbazz

You say Mama's insurance beats out felsteel whisper knives? How are you weighing stats? I sadly accidently vendored mine so I'm forced to run the knives.

With imp zerker stance

the felsteel whisper knives are:
0.63% hit
0.45% crit
22 AP

Mama's insurance (with kings) is:
0.6% crit
35.2 AP


As for the upgrade in kara, which item exactly are you refering to?

Looking at the attumen crossbow I'm already saying not that. it's less AP than Mama's and you dump all the crit. It's worse than the felsteel whisper knives even.

The big bad wolf gun is flat out worse than mama's insurance unless I miss something. simply .10% crit worse

The illhoof thrown is pretty interesting. In my case letting go of 22 AP for a gain of .45% crit and .13% hit seems worth it.

The illhoof thrown vs Mama's though. .31% crit and 0.76% hit vs 35.2 AP. I'm not too sure that's an upgrade

Then we got the prince bow which is 0.63% crit (with kings) and 37.4 AP. It beats Mama's by 2.2 AP and 0.03% crit. I guess this is the one you were refering to?

In my case I'll have to evaluate on prince bow vs Illhoof thrown.

Gain 15.4 AP
Gain 0.18% crit
Lose 0.63% hit

Or

Gain .45% crit
Gain .13% hit
Lose 22 AP


Currently I'm weighing 1 crit rating at nearly the same as 1 strength (without kings). I value hit about half of that. Making 1 hit rating 1.1 AP and 1 crit rating 2.2 AP. Agi with kings is about 76% of one strength with kings and 66% without.
So if I did a VERY rough conversion to AP:

Felsteel whisper knives would be:
10*2.2 = 22 AP
10*1.1 = 11 AP
+22 AP
= 55 AP

And mama's insurance would be:
(10*0.76)*2.2 = 16.7 AP (with kings)
(10*0.66)*2.2 = 14.52 AP (without kings)
6*2.2=13.2 AP
+ 35.2 AP
= 65.1 AP (with kings)
= 62.9 (without kings)


Illhoof thrown would be:
20*2.2= 44 AP
12*1.1= 13.2 AP
= 57.2 AP



So prince bow would be:
(19*0.76)*2.2 = 31.8 AP (with kings)
(19*0.66)*2.2 = 27.6 AP (without kings)
+ 37.4 AP
= 69.2 AP (with kings)
= 65 AP (without kings)

Just for kicks I get thrallmar bow at:
(12*0.76)*2.2 = 20.1 AP (with kings)
(12*0.66)*2.2 = 17.4 AP (without kings)
11*1.1 = 12.1 AP
+ 24.2 AP
= 56.4 AP (with kings)
= 53.7 AP (without kings)

Sadly I've not been able to find a 2.4.3 spreadsheet for fury, so I would like some input on wether my values are way off.

As for your claim on the clefthoof skirt, I actually replaced that with SP HC legs.

Looking at the two items we got:

Clefthoof hide leggins:

66 ( or 72.6) AP
0.9% ( or 1%) crit
4 expertise (1% reduced chance to get dodged)
1.08% hit

vs

Midnight legguards:
70.4 AP
1.22% crit
1.08% hit
3 sockets with 3x8 strength = 52.8 AP ( or 58.1)
123.8 AP (without kings) 128.5 AP (with kings)

without kings midnight legguards has 0.32% more crit and 57 more AP than clefthoof

with kings it they have 0.22% more crit and 55.9 more AP than clefthoof

for 4 expertise. Thats a very, very rough tradeoff. That is not at all worth it.

Remember expertise rounds down no matter what, so anything above a full expertise is wasted.

1 expertise rating is 0.25 expertise. so you need 4 expertise rating to get an expertise.

clefthoof hide leggins has 18, so while it is your only expertise item you are wasting 2 rating. You only get 4. that means only 16/18 rating on the legs has any value.

we can pretty safely say, that 1 expertise, which is 0.25% chance is the worth ROUGHLY the same as 0.25% crit, it's actually slightly less. (getting dodges you lose 100% damage on the attack, crtting nets you 200% damage + flurry + impale if it's a special attack)

that means on those legs you have expertise worth about the same as 1% crit.

now the midnight legguards are already 0.32 or 0.22% crit ahead so thats
0.68 crit vs 57 AP (without kings)
0.78 crit vs 55.9 AP (with kings)

If we use the same statweights as I did above and we're being really nice to expertise and saying 4 expertise is worth the same as 22 crit rating, and even using kings which benefits clefthoof more than midnight then the clefthoof Hide Leggins are worth:
33*2.2 = 72.6 AP
(30*0.76)*2.2 = 50.2 AP
17*1.1 = 18.7 AP
4 expertise (22*2.2) = 48.4 AP
= 189.9 AP

Midnight legguards would be
8x3= 24*1.1 = 26.4 strength (strength gems)
26.4*2.2 = 58.1 AP
+ 70.4 AP = 128.5 AP
27*2.2 = 59.4 AP
17*1.1 = 18.7 AP
= 206.6

so significantly better even with expertise being overvalued

[bigbazz]

@Kiszh - It could only be you who would put in such effort for item comparison. I should point out we speak every day, my character is Quattro.

I wasn't talking about Midnight Legs from HC Slace Pens, but the Vanquisher Legs from HC Mech (I did say that in the post), I'm well aware that Midnight are a lot stronger than Clefthide. And yep mama's gun even if you weigh hit quite favourably (0.78 of STR, overvalued from a 25m raid POV) it's still better than Felsteel Whisper Knifes, the 2nd strongest choice pre raid.

Illihoofs Knives Vs Mama is a close one, but the Prince bow is clearly superior (even if it's still only a small upgrade). Which really hits home my point about gearscore, a green quest item with a low GS value is almost equal to an epic from the end boss of a raid. While many of the epic choices along the path are inferior.

[Kiszh]

Haha my bad, for some reason I read Slave Pens not mechanar <3

[AluschI]

Im spending my rage well even weaving Heroic Strike into the rotation to not get rage capped.
But in dungeons i just srsly cant keep aggro.
On trash pulls i have taunt, thunderclap and Shield slam on constant CD.
I even Devastate every single mob just to make sure i spread my Treat.

You say you know what you do? So why do you not mention the best skill rage/aggro wise in your rotation?
Thunderclap as part of a rota? You only use thunderclap after a pull, only to avoid heal aggro. After first use it is a waste of rage, single hit is the way to go.

How does tanking works in retail
1. Mob Grp of 4
- 1 in sheep
- 1 in sap
- warrior tanks two, one marked skull, one X
- DD only singel target

2. Mob Group of X
- One marked skull
- Warrior pulls rotates one time through all mobs (heal aggro) and then focus on skull
- now DDs start dmg, not earlier

3. Mob Group of X
- Warrior jumps in brainless
- DDs do their legion AEO ****
- whipe
- go l2p


Warrior in TBC was never able to hold aggro on more than one target that gets dmg. DDs in TBC have to go from one single target to the next as a unit (yeah you have to use your brain...). Warrior Tank has more than enough trouble to hold aggro against a healer.

[sijajej333]

CC doesnt matter , simple Holy Light generates enough threat to keep aggro , i have to use 3-4 Thunder Claps , thats ridiculous. And the best thing is that best spell generating AOE aggro for tank does it for 4 moobs , so it generates low aggro for small amount of moobs.....that's nightmare , please do something about it because warrior tank is not going to be playable class.