How do you know Legion got a population increase. Blizzard stopped releasing subscription counts since a year ago. I may be wrong, but there isn't really any way to prove things one way or another. I don't really care much either as I don't really think retail populations are a good representation for private server populations. It's pretty obvious bugs play a role on private servers. A realm that has literally nothing working and you can one shot another player will likely have few players, naturally (I think we can definitely agree on this, right?). Furthermore realm design must play a role as well. It seems more players prefer high exp rate realms than blizzclones, for example. Clearly these both are among many factors that affect private server populations but not retail.
Because this is the only data we have to work with when it comes to studying what factors affect population on Warmane? Do you have any other data that can be used to better study population changes? If so, I would love to take a look at it as well.
Which tournaments did these "world-class" pvp players play in? If possible, can we also get some names so I can read up on these players' issues with S15?
You seem to be implying that I did not play the game pre-Cata. I've played the game since vanilla (before Naxx was launched mind you) and I also played on private servers since the very first ones on vanilla. I also played both the end of MoP and start of WoD on retail. I would appreciate if we can focus on what my arguments are and less on my experience. I do believe this is considered an ad hominem, no?
I don't think this is correct. As stated above I played MoP (at least 5.4.8, I didn't play the beginning of the expansion, that much is true), so I naturally don't fall in the second category. As for the first, does that mean anyone that enjoys playing MoP on a private server is looking through rose-tinted glasses. If so, can't the same be said for people still playing on WotLK after 7 years of it ending on retail?
Since it seems to be so difficult I will sum up my points so we can focus on what I am claiming and if there is any merit in it.
OP asked why WotLK has more players playing on it.
I showed population counts from 2 years ago and showed how the populations were equal when MoP was the main focus for the devs. The realms were in worse condition then, yet had more players (compared to today).
I then hypothesized, based on this, that population seems to be closely linked to development focus.
I didn't say one expansion was better than the other. I didn't say Warmane should focus on x,y,z. I only said populations seems to be closely linked to development focus. I honestly don't even think our debate matters, (I don't care if I'm right or wrong, I'm just doing this for fun) and I'm sure over time we will see more people on MoP because either I'm right and fixes will bring more players, or I'm wrong and "nostalgia" will. Heck maybe population will never increase to 8k again (I'm pretty doubtful of this happening) and I'll just eat my words and enjoy playing MoP wherever I can. But, as long as population increases, I'll be happy, regardless of the reasons for it.
-
Member
Edited: July 4, 2017
-
Member
Tbh I think people could go back and forth for eons about this, but I feel like it really is mostly just personal preferences (and nostalgia which is rooted in those), lol.
WoW was the first big MMO and pretty much just ate every other MMO for years so it had no competition to keep it in check. There were a lot of things in Vanilla->Wrath that were just.... painful by today's standards but the dev team learned and made changes. The game's grown over the years, with many "quality of life" improvements, and it's also more friendly for a wider variety of lifestyles. Some people like the challenge of the older versions of the game so they stick with those. This allows Wrath Pservers to stand out more because they have the old "inconveniences" of babby-era MMOs while everything else these days is a lot more casual-friendly.
So, to put it simply, Wrath is in its own sub-genre of MMORPG almost (TBC and Vanilla too). You've got PvE MMOs, PvP MMOs, action MMOs, grindfest MMOs, sandbox MMOs, and "hardcore" MMOs that aren't very casual-friendly.
MoP also got flack for Pandas and people essentially labeled it as a kiddie game and went back to ice zombies & Darth Vader instead. WoW has a very distinct "type" of personality that it seems to attract, and Pandaria was less of the masculinity and war/destruction that Blizzard fans were used to and a bit more philosophical and "comfy". Like, even though it still had those typical "Warcraft" elements I just saw so many people reject it because it was such a deviation from Warcraft's usual themes and much softer in general.
I'd also be curious to see just how many people exclusively playing the Wrath servers were former retail players who quit during Cata or MoP. I feel like Cata killed the game for a lot of veteran players with how disliked the endgame content was, so that's probably a factor in why so many people are hung up on the first 3 iterations.
Personally WotLK is my -least- favourite version of WoW- even though it was my 2nd most played- with MoP being my most favourite, but I understand the major appeal for Wrath and its predecessors even though it's unfortunate as a MoP player.
Bug fixes probably do play a part in it, but I don't think they're all that important in most people's minds so long as the server and endgame is mostly playable and class skills aren't fubar.
-
Moderator
They haven't given numbers, but they have made statements from which you can easily extrapolate they had an increase in subscriptions in the millions with Legion. This article exposes that well:
"(...) The company also said that it had reached a number of concurrent users logged on that it had not seen since the Cataclysm days.
It was around the time of Cataclysm’s release that World of Warcraft hit its all-time high of over 12 million subscribers, so in that sense it’s not unbelievable that the game could be back above 10 million. But that would still be an incredible amount of growth in a short amount of time. Unfortunately, unless Blizzard changes its stance on providing numbers, this all remains pure speculation."
The fact you don't care about that just makes your extreme bias blatant, as the connection is obvious: if millions of players disliked the expansion enough to cancel their subscription, why would the general opinion be different when in private servers? A slab of stinky meat remains a slab of stinky meat, be it served in a 5-stars restaurant or in some dubious food wagon. People who had a bad opinion of Mists in retail won't like it better because it's on a private server, and that bad opinion spreads to players who never touched the expansion but end choosing to not waste their time.
-
Member
Are you seriously using speculation to argue when all I have shown are facts (release dates and populations in days gone by). Let me repeat, there is no proof that Legion has made the population cross 10 million. Some random Polish journal posting otherwise with no official word given by Blizzard is not something we can use for anything. However, for argument's sake, let's go with it. Let's assume Legion crossed 10 million subs. I'll quote the rest of your post before I explain my thinking.
You talk about my bias, but how about you first acknowledge your own bias? From the first post you made in this thread:
Talking about bias in an argument is (I hate to bring up this exact same fallacy again) an Ad Hominem attack as well. Argue the facts please and not my personal preference/bias. I have presented facts and my logical thinking. If you have facts of your own, present them without attacking the other party itself.
The crux of the argument, however, seems to be this:
This is the one part of my post you seemed to have ignored completely. Do you agree that bugs play a part in populations on private servers? If not, how come the new Legion private servers all don't have more population than MoP realms? I mean, according to you, Legion had 10 million+ subs, MoP had 5 million subs, there's private servers out for both, therefore the Legion private servers should have double the population, no? Or could it be that the Legion realms are complete garbage and no-one wants to play it? I won't mention any names of servers, but the only Legion server I could find has 2k people online as of writing this. The leading MoP server (again not mentioning names) has 3k players, our realm has 1.3k, and another server has 1.8k (this last one has a WotLK realm with 3 people online atm and they solely focus on fixing MoP and advertise only their MoP realms. Maybe you can explain why this server has more players on their MoP realms than WotLK, since, according to you, all that matters are what populations were on retail).
Regarding your analogy of the restaurant/food wagon, I don't understand why they're serving slabs of stinky meats. Clearly 5 million players played MoP on retail, and I doubt you'll find 5 million people willing to eat slabs of stinky meat. A better analogy would be something like Escargot or Sushi (items that tend to have acquired tastes). Would one rather have Escargot/Sushi at a 5 star restaurant or a food wagon. Well, they would prefer a 5-star restaurant, but in our situation, no 5-star restaurant is serving said items. If the food wagon is our only source, we may as well have it from there. All we would ask is that the food items are edible. retain some of the intended taste, and are not toxic.
-
Moderator
Yes, I am. Wasn't it clear enough? Then again you call Polygon quoting Blizzard statements as "some random Polish journal." Although maybe you're saying Blizzard lied on those statements? Well, that means they can have lied on your claimed "facts." So, which is it: is Blizzard reliable in their statements or not? You can't claim I'm incorrect without making yourself incorrect as well.
Yes, I talk about bias, because, while I'm upfront with my bias, you try to push that onto anyone who disagrees.
No, I didn't ignore anything. I gave basis to the fact - fact - that Mists was a down point, while Legion made the game recover. Your main "point" is ignoring how players felt about the expansion, retail or private server, and trying to push the blame for it to be a failure (as far as Blizzard numbers go) as an isolated thing on private server because of bugs. Get over it: people ditched World of Warcraft by the millions, and it wasn't because of other games, it was because they disliked your pet expansion. Bugs play a part in private server populations? Sure - but only to make something that would stay low anyways be even lower.
Blizzard is out there to prove you wrong.
-
Member
There's a thread today on the US arena forum on retail entitled "next xpansion please save pvp pls" today in which a bunch of people express the view that WoW pvp was last great in MoP. I've been told not to link stuff from other sites so I won't, but I'm sure you can find it.
One person in the thread said:
"Just give me MoP back and I'll be fine. It was the last solid expansion we've had PvP-wise."
This post got 17 upvotes, and a whole bunch of people made their own follow-up posts agreeing that MoP was great.
This is a very common sentiment in the pvp community, I've seen it repeatedly stated on various pvp forums in the last year.
The potential is there for Frostwolf to be a very solid pvp server. But two things need to happen: 1) it needs to be actively marketed and 2) the gearing process needs to be made faster.
Frostwolf will never be at WOTLK's population, but it can and should be a lot higher than it is now. This is especially true since Warmane's main MoP competitor is basically dying because they've decided to focus on a Legion server. That's a dumb move, imo, but I'm glad they did it since it's good for Frostwolf.
Frostwolf is THE go-to destination for MoP pvp. A lot of people love MoP pvp. You've got a potential great server on your hands, Warmane. But it's not going to reach that potential if people search google and see that Warmane is a "WOTLK" server and, on the chance they do give Frostwolf a try, see that it takes months of getting farmed before they can have fun.Edited: July 7, 2017
-
Member
I would have expected you to read the article you linked yourself which is why I didn't go into more detail. But I'll do so now since it seems you didn't read it.
" According to an interview with Polish gaming magazine Pixel (as reported and translated by a poster on the NeoGAF forums), Blizzard’s MMO has shot back past 10 million subscribers following the launch of its latest expansion, Legion."
First paragraph from your link.
I mean, I already spoke about my preference of MoP (again, despite playing WotLK more). That has nothing to do with our debate on what the main causes for population change is on private servers. Again, we are talking about populations on a private server, not retail. I am claiming these are different in the following ways:
1) Buggy realms play a bigger part than anything else
2) Realm design plays the second biggest part (rates, hardcore, etc.)
3) Current population
I have shown you that buggy realms play a part. Legion realms (the expansion that has "made the game recover") have less players than MoP (the expansion that "was a down point"). There is a reason for this. Legion private servers are completely garbage right now, MoP realms are somewhat better but still mediocre, and WotLK realms are very good now, with open-source software having improved significantly over the past 7 years. I already told you I've played private servers since vanilla, I know well how bad WotLK realms were when they were first launched (I played on them). At that time, WotLK realms had less players than TBC, despite retail numbers having been higher for WotLK than TBC.
I also showed how realm design plays a big part. Icecrown has more players than Lordaeron, Outland has more players than Medivh, back when Wowscape was around (I think I'm safe posting this, since that server died 7 years ago or so), it's "fun-server" had double the population of its 1x realm, etc.
Finally, obviously current population plays a huge role in population growth on private servers. Players tend to play on servers with high population. This is why Warmane has been so successful.
If you have anything to contest these 3 points, please do so with facts and logic. I would love to be proven wrong, but going on and on about how retail had less players during MoP isn't going to work when I can just point to Legion private servers and show you that they have less population than MoP realms.
S15 is an absolutely great patch for anyone that loves to do arenas. Unfortunately most players do not do arenas and consider queueing a BiS 5man premade to be "hardcore" PvP. Many retail players (who, like I mentioned, attended Blizzcon) are playing on an S15 server. There is a reason they ditched Legion for S15 on a private server. Besides what some would have you believe, it isn't because Blizzcon level players enjoy "stinky piles of meat".
-
Moderator
Now try reading the rest - such as the part I previously quoted - not parts that the article itself states when they reached for a comment from Blizzard, the response being the Polish magazine had misquoted or misunderstood.
Yes, it does, as I've pointed out before - private servers won't be able to have more success on something that was a failure on retail. The expansion isn't going to get any better in a private server environment (unless you start adding custom content, like every Panda being impaled five times per second). If Mists was such a great expansion on its own, it would have been a huge success on retail, where it was at its "perfect" state. All private servers can have is, at a very optimistic expectation, equal results, and at a realistic one even worse ones (a result of unavoidable bugs and so on), because the base material was disliked by millions.
This is, as far as the player-base reaction to Mists of Pandaria went, a case of "you can't polish a turd;" Mists of Pandaria will never be better than Mists of Pandaria simply because it's on a private server. But since you insist on this denial-based claim that the reception of the expansion on retail somehow has nothing to do with how it does on private servers, I'm done.
-
Member
Given that the population in Cataclysm varied greatly (7mil to 10mil) we can't be certain what the subscription levels are currently. Again, doesn't really matter to me.
We aren't looking to have a 5-7 million population on a private server. The base material was also liked by millions. All we need is to find 10k of said millions that played during that expansion. You also keep ignoring the fact that MoP on launch here had 8k players, on par with WotLK. Not just that, it kept 5k players until Lordaeron was announced/launched. I think there must be a reason for that, no? Do you honestly see no correlation whatsoever in population drop just when Lordaeron was announced/released. I would say that is some serious denial on your part as well. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised to hear this from some-one who hates an expansion because a single race (that was already in the lore) was introduced. I don't find MoP to be perfect, it has its flaws, but all you seem to drone on and on about are Pandas. Seems a bit weird, given just how big the game is, to focus on one race to be honest.
-
Member
Stop comparing MoP to Legion. MoP was the height of most abilities used, and it's glorious.
You should say "Blizzard started dumbing down the game with WoD & Legion" instead.
-
Banned
No. The dumbing down CLEARLY began with Cataclysm.
PvP was "slowed down" for casuals to keep up. Classes normalized. Essentially most of the 'fun' aspects were toned down or removed. Essentially making PvP more about stats and cooldowns moreso than player skill (more like PvE basically).
-
Member
I think the discussion in this thread was on why population changed. I hope this isn't off topic, but I would like to ask what you find "dumbed down" or "easier" in MoP?
Cataclysm had more burst than WotLK had in 4.3.4. If the dumbing down began in Cataclysm, then I suppose big bursts are not necessarily your metric? It can't be number of abilities since both Cata and MoP have more abilities than WotLK. I also find that stats matter far more on WotLK than they do on MoP, since the resilience is close to the same for all players.
Just curious as to how you judge an expansion's difficulty in PvP.
In my opinion, every expansion is the same in difficulty (for PvP), simply because if an expansion is "easier", it is "easier" for everyone, and as such the best players still stand out. Luckily in PvP, difficulty of an expansion doesn't actually matter, all that matters is how much time you dedicate to learning and how good of a player you are. This is why we see the same players dominate PvP on retail regardless of expansion.
-
Member
Mop is actually really sick, some people just don't like change even tho Cata and Mop were like perfect
