Warmane, we have a suggestion

[Obnoxious]

I'll forward that as well, although I can't say they will get attention as they aren't a critical issue like Icecrown Citadel, that no one could complete and all. The fact you say people aren't being blocked in their progression, just skipping something, doesn't helps it, as people interested in achievements for doing those still will do it, and that's pretty much something that comes with the extra challenge intended.

[rumbleshotz]

thanks aswell :)

hope we get some action soon

[Psychodelia]

I see rumbleshotz point and i tottaly agree with him, i think good way to improve Lordaeron is to nerf lower level raids then current content, nerf Naxx, Uld, ToC all the way to blizzlike difficulty so it can be pugable, most of pugs cant even do anub 25m normal, thats just ridiculous, you should probably nerf icc normal aswell, i wouldnt touch diffuculty of icc heroic so it can be chelanging, but normal versions and lower raids should surely be nerfed so lower and casual guilds can actualy catch up with gear.

[Cozzolino]

I've been playing WoW for less than 1 year and only now have been reaching end game for the first time. Let me say that I have no idea what an unbuffed ICC looks like, but I know for sure that if I could learn the strategy and execute it even just sufficiently well, anyone can. I think dedication, experience and patience should be rewarded and I'm most often than not feeling just like that in Loardaeron ICC experience. I pug a lot so I know what it feels to 3-boss ICC all the damn weeks. All I wanna say is that, as a gamer, I'm satisfied with the Loarderon vision, but I'm not satisfied with the current state of the raiding experience. I'm sure my pugs fail because there are people who are not up to the challenge: they are not prepared, they underestimate the raid, fail at skill checks, refuse to put up with any tactic that involves pressing any button which is not in their preferred rotation, they slack and don't invest time nor gold in their characters. On the other hand, I'm also sure at least some of those fails can't be accounted on human error, but merely on hard numbers. Therefore I'm joining the choir: I want a challenge, not a lost cause.

If I had to quantify the tuning I wish to see for ICC, I'd say that it has to be around 15-20% easier than it is now. The reason is that top guilds of selected individuals are those supposed to see an end game raid as a moderate challenge and therefore can't be the standard to gauge the difficulty. Ideally, the top 10% of the server should be able to clear ICC 25hc with moderate effort and the 10% below should be putting some real effort into successfully doing it, with the average players being able to at least see their *** handed by Putricide/Blood Queen on a weekly basis and stuck at, let's say, DBS on HC.

[rumbleshotz]

I've been playing WoW for less than 1 year and only now have been reaching end game for the first time. Let me say that I have no idea what an unbuffed ICC looks like, but I know for sure that if I could learn the strategy and execute it even just sufficiently well, anyone can. I think dedication, experience and patience should be rewarded and I'm most often than not feeling just like that in Loardaeron ICC experience. I pug a lot so I know what it feels to 3-boss ICC all the damn weeks. All I wanna say is that, as a gamer, I'm satisfied with the Loarderon vision, but I'm not satisfied with the current state of the raiding experience. I'm sure my pugs fail because there are people who are not up to the challenge: they are not prepared, they underestimate the raid, fail at skill checks, refuse to put up with any tactic that involves pressing any button which is not in their preferred rotation, they slack and don't invest time nor gold in their characters. On the other hand, I'm also sure at least some of those fails can't be accounted on human error, but merely on hard numbers. Therefore I'm joining the choir: I want a challenge, not a lost cause.

If I had to quantify the tuning I wish to see for ICC, I'd say that it has to be around 15-20% easier than it is now. The reason is that top guilds of selected individuals are those supposed to see an end game raid as a moderate challenge and therefore can't be the standard to gauge the difficulty. Ideally, the top 10% of the server should be able to clear ICC 25hc with moderate effort and the 10% below should be putting some real effort into successfully doing it, with the average players being able to at least see their *** handed by Putricide/Blood Queen on a weekly basis and stuck at, let's say, DBS on HC.

I agree,

even if the server is a challenge and endgame content is suited for "hardcore" or lets say experienced people in their class who have to bring 100% performance every fight to kill. but even we cant do anything without a big pool of "amateurs". Where people can also progress for them on a lower level and maybe make the jump to to peak. its like in sports you cant have the professionals (who go for lk hc) without the ameteurs (wide range from togc/icc10 to 12/12 normal until fwe heroic bosses). if the entry stuff which is everything below icc 25heroic is too frustrating for newer unexperienced people who dont have the contacts and friends in topguild who can carry them there is no followers who can replace if one player quits at the top. and currently we have this problem on lordaeron. the gap between top and midfield guild is isane.

i myself played wotlk on Mugthol-eu a server we choosed because of low population (about 2k-3k, one of least pop german servers) no lags, less downtimes, no que during new content. and even there you can see : https://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/m...ting.tier10_25
how it goes fluent from top world guild over to casual guilds.
on lordaeron currently it jumps:

1. memories/archetype 11/12
2. company 9/12 i think
3.nukers 4-5/12 i think
to guilds who only do gunship and council heroic(because council after 1switch is at 20%hp and freeloot like gunship) and dont even clear 12/12 normal.

just not healthy

[Frysharry]

It being challenging is the aim of the server, as I said, so there needs to be a better basis to show it as being not a case of "get more experience and you'll succeed," but one of "only really good players with years of experience will ever be able to do it, so most people are left out."

I posted earlier in the thread before you guys posted and I'll reiterate what I posted.

I understand the fascination with not having Blizz-like numbers in ICC. It would obviously be a complete farm fest within weeks. And while I agree with and enjoy the challenge, it's overtuned, not solely for reason you laid out in the second half. I'm glad you guys are looking into LK25H being unkillable, but the underlying thread is the issue: the longevity of the realm and the expectations on new/existing raiders who are not at these top ranks.

Nothing about ICC is mechanically difficult; it's a pretty simple raid with easy-to-learn mechanics. If only LK25H gets nerfed, as it will be, it's still not addressing the fact that it requires virtually every piece of BiS for your entire raid to even attempt it. With the population bleeding being focused around raiders getting burnt out, how many newer players, if they even are motivated enough to get to 80 w/o RDF, can you guys expect to go through the same grind? I'm not suggesting retail numbers in ICC, but a 20--30% nerf across the board to at the very least HP values would keep it challenging without making it a borefest like retail values.

There needs to be some leeway and a margin for error in fights like the LK, where it seems that even with people "overgeared" for the encounter can still wipe easily if even one thing goes bad, like an unlucky string of crits on the tank. It's not like having an easier raiding experience will suddenly allow players to forego reputation as a bad player or people be forgiving on poor performance; people will still seek the best players available to PUG/raid with in order to ensure as smooth as a raid as possible.

It's time to reconsider if the initial desires for the realm is really in the benefit of the long-term health of the realm and to not get clouded by this air of elitism. I read the response from another Warmane official that they won't even be nerfing old expansion raids, much less old WotLK raids. It makes no sense, it's arbitrary hard-lining.

[Hund]

While i do somewhat agree with what you are trying to say, it doesn't help your case if you say it like this

I'm not suggesting retail numbers in ICC, but a 20--30% nerf across the board to at the very least HP values would keep it challenging without making it a borefest like retail values.

This just gives the impression that you didn't do a single ICC HC fight because the HP values are fine across the board, it's the Enrage timers that the devs tinkered with that got decreased substantially on basically every fight that has one.

There needs to be some leeway and a margin for error in fights like the LK, where it seems that even with people "overgeared" for the encounter can still wipe easily if even one thing goes bad, like an unlucky string of crits on the tank.

Let's just say i hope that this is a typo.



Readjusting ICC normal to appropiate levels so even average Pugs can get past Saurfang and clear the majority of the other encounters would be a big step forward aswell as increasing the Enrage timers a bit.
I don't think anyone who still sticks around on Lordaeron wants it to end like some other servers where LK HC is killed withing 2weeks of ICC's release but there needs to be some retuning of the content, not just LK HC.

[Disktrasa]

I really hope the time will come when I se global LFM Ulduar 25, LFM Naxx 25, LFM EoE 25.
Great raids, Imo ulduar is the best raid ever made, Thrown away because no one can possibly clear them with a pug raid, gearing... wich is one of the biggest things for everyone in this game is being overlooked by people who wants a "challange" when they get their achievements... Achievements wich almost no one on the realm cares about.

Sure this was a good idea when they actually did these raids for progression, but now?
These raids should have been nerfed long time ago.

[Zellow]

LK25 heroic
- LK melee value is too high
- Infest is pretty hard to manage (by pretty hard I mean almost not doable after 1 minute of fight)
- Shambling melee value is also quite high
- LK is not killable with current HP, even Paragon got berserk without aura + bis gear: https://youtu.be/0y2mgEAe0hY?t=140
- Reaper is IKing tanks
- I have no clue if you buffed valkyrs, but if you did, they will not be doable with 0% aura as well.

For the rest of the 25HC bosses difficulty is ok for 3 guilds, but still, you (Warmane) needs to make a decision if you want to make ICC25hc doable for more then 3 guilds (Memeries, Archetype, Company) or not.
If yes, I would definitely debuff Lady 25 hc a bit, cos RNG there is really big (these ghosts rng.... :D )
Also Sindy 25hc is not very ez, may have 5% less HP, also BQ25hc can have 5% less hp.
The rest of the 25hc bosses really looks fine for me, they are doable even for casuals, if you wanna kill them, you simply needs to progress them that s it. Once you progress them, you will farm them.

On another hand, encounters like togc25 may be as difficult as ICC25hc for some guilds.
So, I think this HP on TOC/TOGC bosses should be putted to blizz values.
Actualy I would like to return to TOGC to slay some insanity some time, but there is lot of RNG which will take 1 or more tries from you (especialy on Anub adds) and then togc looses its purpose (bis backs from insanity for combats, hunts, warrs).

About other instances (eoe, naxx, os, UD) ofc they are overbuffed, but I don t think anyone goes there anymore...

You may consider this when you will talk to your team.
Also, I already felt yesterday that Vali25 hc is nerfed (or?).

[Obnoxious]

It's been confirmed that nerfs are incoming to Ice Crown Citadel. I can't tell exactly what the nerfs will be, since calculations are still being done to keep it balanced, but if everything goes according to plan this should happen pretty soon (I was given an unofficial expected date, but for the sake of not having people act like it's a contract signed in blood and throw a fit if there's a delay, trust on "pretty soon").

Zellow is also correct in his last line - according to the information I received, other raids have already received some nerfs, so you might want to go out there and give them a shot.

[Hund]

good news indeed but i hope you will post an official announcement on the website/forums when the nerf is going live so every guild has the same information going for the rf kill.

Zellow is also correct in his last line - according to the information I received, other raids have already received some nerfs, so you might want to go out there and give them a shot.

vali25 is in icc, not some other raid )
It was the only nerfed encounter tho as far as i can tell from our 11/12hc clear yesterday.

[Obnoxious]

vali25 is in icc, not some other raid )
It was the only nerfed encounter tho as far as i can tell from our 11/12hc clear yesterday.

Which would mean that he is correct.... and there also have been nerfs to other raids, which other people - him included - had asked about.

[Hund]

Are those nerfs going to be live on ID reset wednesday or whenever they are ready, on whichever day of the week that might be?

I get that you won't give us an exact date when the nerfs will be ready, but can you give us any info about wether they could be coming this ID already or is it safe for us to kill LK this week?

[Obnoxious]

From the available information, the nerfs wouldn't come before the next Wednesday reset, no.

[Hund]

From the available information, the nerfs wouldn't come before the next Wednesday reset, no.

Thank you.