WotLK TTW Fire Mage Crit and Haste balance?

[Gnimo]

As the title says itself, how much is the perfect balance btwn Haste and Crit when playing TTW Fire Mage?
Talking about BiS gear...

923 Haste (28%) and 49.91% Crit?
953 Haste (29%) and 49.51% Crit?
Or go more Haste and get less Crit?
(this is all self buffed with Arcane Intelect and Molten Armor)

Taking into account all the Raid Buffs, Debuffs, Talents, how much Crit % u want to go for and how much Haste u need?

Couldnt find any information out there on google nor in Mage Class Section?

I know it wont matter in the end, when it comes to DPS since RNG will decide, but im into "perfect" numbers so i want to try and find best way to gem, itemise my mage...

[Gnimo]

https://drive.google.com/drive/mobil...TA?usp=sharing

Guess i found my answer, on top of that its a great guide, if anyone is interested in reading it or reworking and posting on mage class forum section.

If anyone disagrees with Itemisation sections (page 50+ if i remember corectly), and have something to add please do so... Im really interested in "perfect" crit and haste balance when it comes to Fire TTW mage, but i cant find any EJ or MMO topics on this subject.

Thanks, best of luck.

[rc100]

I think ones you are around 1.85sec casting time on fireball. Because that way you will have just enough time to cast 3 fireballs with haste buff if no hot strike [in raid environment and no additional buffs BL, PI etc]. Pushing for more you will need alot more haste and DFO to be able to cast 3 fireballs + LB in the haste buff window.The most important thing become position, you want to play as close as you can to the boss, and priorities Pyro over LB. If you stay on big range just find the yards where you can do LB and start casting fireball, before fireball that you cast before LB hit the target, because that way you will not lose pyro if you have it. Overlapping pyro is the place where we lose the most damage, having like 50-100 haste more or less is nothing compere to losing 3 or 4 pyros in a single fight.

ps. I can be totally wrong that`s just how i`m thinking when i`m playing Mage.

[Gnimo]

Yea, I kinda do that myself aswell...
Do u know what is the exact Haste number with which u are able to cast 3 FBs within the 12% Haste buff from 2/5 T10?
And also the number for 3 FB 1 LB?

For example, i know u need 1269 Haste as Shadow Priest to reach GCD cap with 8% Haste from Raid Buffs.
I managed to get 1270 from gear on mine, after which i went for Potent Ametrines (12sp10crit). And i like the numbers im getting in return...
Would like to try and reach that "perfect" spot as Mage aswell. :)

[Sky]

Hey, regarding the haste milestones, the subject is mentioned in one of the guides written here (albeit a bit dated). Just in case you missed it:

Spoiler: Show

Haste Rating:

Haste rating also decreases GCD to a minimum of 1 second. This means that if you have enough haste to drop your cast time below 1 second, you are over capped on haste and are wasting stats. At this point focus on other stats.
Haste is the secondary stat for arcane mages and should be prioritized over crit and spirit.

32.79 Haste Rating = 1% Haste

FAQ: How much haste is the right amount?
This varies significantly by spec and values will assume full raid buffs.

Arcane:
Ideally you want your Arcane Blast to be a 1 second cast time while Bloodlust is active. (Or troll racial). This is about 1450 Haste. However the most important haste value is the point where you are able to squeeze in 4 Arcane Blasts in the time of 2pT10. This is because it means you will always have the effective uptime of 2pT10 with the general rotation for arcane. 4xAB > AM (refreshes 2pT10 buff). This means ideally a cast time of 1.25 sec on Arcane Blast. However for this to happen, this means you need 68.5% haste which is 2230 haste. This value is not obtainable. Including raid buffs (not with BL/heroism) this value would be reduced to 55.7% or 1836 haste. This value is also not reasonable. This leaves 3 other options.

4AB during Bloodlust/Heroism under 2pT10 = 655 haste = 20% haste
3AB during 2pT10 = 590 Haste = 18% haste
5AB during Bloodlust/Heroism under 2pT10 = 1640 Haste = 50% haste
5AB during Bloodlust/Heroism under 2pT10 with BlackMagic = 1390 Haste = 42.4% haste
These Last 2 values also mean that you DO NOT use Icy Veins or Berserking (Troll racial) During Bloodlust.

TTW/Fire:
For TTW/fire you want to be able to ideally fit in 4 Fireballs during the 2pT10 buff. The important milestone values for TTW/fire are as follows.

3FB during 2pT10 = 650 Haste = 20% haste
4FB during 2pT10 with Bloodlust/Heroism with BlackMagic = 925 haste = 28.2% haste
4FB during 2pT10 with Bloodlust/Heroism = 1175 Haste = 35.9% haste

FFB specs.
1 second FFB during BL, IV, Berserking (troll only) under 2pT10 = 918 haste = 28% haste
4FFB during Bloodlust/Heroism with Icy Veins under 2pT10 = 1246 Haste = 38% haste

More values may be added later.

Black Magic can always be used to reach these value. Though I would only use Black Magic when it reaches a bit over the value to compensate for lag.

Using Black Magic or Mighty Spellpower as your MH enchant is another discussion per se, but according to this EJ Mage Compendium, Black Magic does outperform Mighty Spellpower. Beware though, there's 200 pages of discussion in it :d

[Gnimo]

I saw that guide and while googling arround i found that some (outside of this forums) say its 725 Haste that u need to fit those Fireballs (3) in 2/5 T10 12% Haste bonus. Thats why i wanted to doublecheck...

Are u 100% sure u can drop haste that low to reach it? Il do some tests when i get home tho... Anyone alrdy tested this? Or has an archive thread about it from EJ? (With a bit less pages to search for hopefully) :D

Edit:
Can someone explain why i cant open other pages from the thread Sky linked?
"Error 1016"

[Sky]

I think I might've given you the wrong link. Try this one?

Edit: As per FB and 2p-bonus: I find it odd at such low haste levels. Considering Pushing The Limit procs as soon as you cast Pyroblast, you'd be losing time on that 5-second buff equal to your GCD. Assuming one is GCD-capped, that'd be 1 second lost. So, you would need to have your Fireball cast time dropped down to 1.8-1.9 (compensating for lag) to be able to squeeze 2 spells, and start casting the 3rd one still under the haste buff.

Personally, I can cast 3 hasted Fireballs under raid conditions on both a mage with 1043 haste and one with 916 (just barely). Any increase in latency (since we're already talking in decimals here) does hinder me. Also, I wouldn't drop my haste for additional crit as I'm already at the 68% crit mark in raid, which has proven to be consistent enough, as far as RNG goes.

Edit2: Tested 760 haste on a dummy, Fireball's cast time was 2.1 during 2p bonus. With Hyperspeed Accelerators active, you could drop it to 1.9. That leaves a 0.2s window to start casting the third Fireball. In a raid setting you might be able to squeeze a 3rd hasted fireball (considering the additional haste auras), but only as often as the glove cooldown allows. I suppose you would be able to do it more frequently by also using Black Magic, since it has an uptime of 30-35%.

[Gnimo]

It works now, thx...

Does anyone know if GCD of Instant Pyro (Hot Streak) gets effected by 12% Haste?
We dont have the buff when we cast it so im not sure if GCD is reduced by it...
Need to know so i can calculate how much Haste Exactly i need for 3x FBs during the 2/5 proc.

5sec - Pyro GCD - 2x Fireball Cast time = 0.0X sec, if X is 1+, 3rd Fireball will get the bonus, with perfect latency and fps.

Correct me if im wrong.

[Gnimo]

While beeing on 923 Haste my cast time was:
Scorch 1.08sec
Fireball 2.06sec
+12% Haste
Fireball 1.84sec
Even tho i should be able to fit 3 Fireballs within that 2/5 proc, i couldnt. Perfect MS, perfect FPS (Ironforge dummy).

While beeing on 1043 Haste my cast time was:
Scorch 1.05sec
Fireball 2.00sec
+12% Haste
Fireball 1.78sec
I managed to fit in 3 Fireballs by 0.01sec margine, and sometimes i still couldnt.

Again, 36ms, 60fps. I dont get it how can u do it with 650 Haste tbh. :D

Edit:
Dont use "SnowfallKeyPress" addon as a Caster.
Without that addon its easy to fit 3 FBs with 1043 Haste, but again, i still sometimes fail to do so with 923 Haste.

[Sky]

I dont get it how can u do it with 650 Haste tbh. :D

Yeah, I'm not sure what calculations the author made at the time, but I can't see it happen without haste modifiers such as potions, PI, accelerators, BL/Heroism, or Black Magic. 2 hasted Fireballs are doable, 3 - not so much.

Dont use "SnowfallKeyPress" addon as a Caster.
Without that addon its easy to fit 3 FBs with 1043 Haste, but again, i still sometimes fail to do so with 923 Haste.

That's interesting, isn't it supposed to help you by starting a cast upon button press, rather than release?

[TinyToys]

Yeah, I'm not sure what calculations the author made at the time, but I can't see it happen without haste modifiers such as potions, PI, accelerators, BL/Heroism, or Black Magic. 2 hasted Fireballs are doable, 3 - not so much.



That's interesting, isn't it supposed to help you by starting a cast upon button press, rather than release?

@Gnimo : I play with 1035 haste and manage to fit the 3 FB, i think it's one of the better way to play mage, i will moove up to 1043 too when i'll have my last item. I probabily did less test then you but it's feel the right way to me

But, why don't use SFKP ? if you are a spamming player it will always serv you, i cannot find a good point to have the opportunity to hold your spell (i mean it's the only difference made by do not using SFKP)

Tiny.

[Gnimo]

I got 2 itemisations, one that uses 1063 Haste, and the other with 893 Haste and more Spirit items and Potent Ametrines. If im not able to fit 3 FBs every time with the Haste itemisation, il simply go for more Crit.

As for SFKP, if u use Quartz u can see that little red thingy at the end of ur cast bar. If u click when ur cast time reaches it, u will cast ur next spell without having to press the button again.
Push and release is perfect for that, cos u will never be late nor too fast, while with SFKP active u might be a bit too fast...

I remembered yday, long long time ago when the player that suggested me to use SFKP as a Frost DK told me that it sux for casters... I cant remember the reason but im almost sertain its cos of that red thingie.
Atleast for me, not using SFKP is better... :)

[DarkenedHue]

Again, 36ms, 60fps. I dont get it how can u do it with 650 Haste tbh. :D

Assuming the highly unrealistic scenario of 0 DPS loss from latency or reaction time, it's possible to do with 650 Haste assuming the GCD of the Pyroblast that procced it was cast under the effect of the 12% haste buff.

650 Haste Rating = 19.83% Haste. This puts the GCD of the Pyroblast at 1.5/(1.1983x1.05x1.03x1.12) = 1.04 secs, and the cast time of glyphed Fireball at 2.85/(1.1983x1.05x1.03x1.12) = 1.96. The first pyroblast and subsequent 2 fireballs would therefore leave a 5.0 - 1.04 - 1.96x2 = 0.04 sec window to squeeze in that 3rd Fireball while still buffed, which you should in theory (but almost never in practice, at least for me) be able to do.

The amount of Haste needed to do that without the first Pyroblast itself being buffed is somewhere between 700-800. Near BiS mages tend to very easily find themselves sitting around 950+ Haste which comfortably lets them pull off that 3 buffed casts thing every time. With that amount of Haste, under BL you're usually able to pull off 4 buffed casts, 1 of them being a Living Bomb refresh for when it's needed, so you do naturally fall into a good place with that amount of Haste.

[Sky]

Assuming the highly unrealistic scenario of 0 DPS loss from latency or reaction time, it's possible to do with 650 Haste assuming the GCD of the Pyroblast that procced it was cast under the effect of the 12% haste buff.

On top of that, one would probably not be able to cast a 'hastened' Pyroblast that consistently and smoothly.

You would need to always clip 1 out of 2 procs of Pushing the Limit to do it. Since you can't fit 3 spells during that 4 second window, you'd need to cast a Fireball->Pyroblast (having one previous third crit from either living bomb explosion or a fireball) to consume a Hotstreak, proc your set bonus, and immediately gain a new Hotstreak. You would then have to instantly use that Hostreak if you want to cast a Pyroblast under the 12% haste buff.

So basically you're casting 1 hasted spell under one set bonus, and (potentially) 3 spells under the other set bonus. At which point, wouldn't it be the same as simply casting 2 hasted fireballs on each?

But yeah, any latency over 0ms (brain lag too) will eat away at that 0.04s window to cast the third Fireball anyway, meaning in practice you most likely can never pull it off.