Which is a better spec for dungeons and raiding? Arms or Fury?
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Member
Arms or Fury for PvE and raiding?
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Member
Fury has higher personal DPS and is a lot easier to play. Arms is the only spec in the game that gives 4% extra physical damage (Blood Frenzy) but does lower personal DPS and is a lot harder to play and very latency dependent. In 25 mans it's worth bringing an Arms Warrior because the other physical DPS will benefit so much that it'll offset the personal DPS loss. In 10 mans and dungeons you're better off with Fury.
This does not mean that Arms has bad DPS by the way. Arms can still be high DPS but you won't do as much as Fury Warriors or Rogues, or even Enh Shamans.
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Should be mentioned though, Blood Frenzy while a good raid buff is only worth it if the 4% physical damage of the other members combined surpasses the dps difference between Arms/Fury, which especially at T4/T5 it often doesn't and will also differ on a fight to fight basis. To be quite frank you should just play Fury Warrior for now unless you're doing 25man raiding with a really physical heavy setup, or if you just really want to play Arms.
With that said, since 2handed dps specs are not common in raids (Ret is unpopular, Arms is nowhere near as popular as Fury) so you're more likely to have uncontested access to the best 2handed weapons, though with Blacksmithing and the Swordsmithing Lionheart blade there is no real other weapon worth considering until Kael'Thas. In PVE it is Sword Spec > Axe Spec > Mace Spec, with Mace offering no dps advantage, thus leaving it a long way behind.Edited: July 26, 2017
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What about orc then? I've been trying to find a discussion regarding Axe compared to Sword specc as orc, their axe racial bonus vs the slightly superior
sword (extra hit) talents and procc of Lionheart? Anyone able to help me out?
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Lionheart is actually pretty bad for Arms. Considering equal weapons Sword spec > Axe spec, but Mooncleaver and Lionheart are far from equal. Mooncleaver is better because it has more crit (it has the highest amount of crit on any item in the whole of TBC!) and is 3.7 speed instead of 3.6. The difference in weapon speed has a pretty significant impact. The weapon damage range is higher so every instant attack will hit harder but there's another factor. Slam is not a normalized attack so the 0.1 slower speed really matters, not only is your weapon damage range a bit higher but you get 10% more attack power coefficient on Slam (Slam damage is: weapon damage + 140 + Attack Power * weapon speed, so for Lionheart its AP * 3.6 while for Mooncleaver it's AP * 3.7). The same goes for WF procs, since WF is not normalized either.
Now, is it actually worth rolling Orc just because (if you roll BS anyway) you will be using an Axe during T4 and most of T5? Your decision. Kael'Thas sword is way superior to any other weapon you can get before it, and it is a Sword. From that point onwards the Axe racial disappears.
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Of course Axe is good too and the Expertise helps, but it's generally not considered enough to negate sword-spec + the fact that the best weapons are all swords. Lionheart Executioner, Kael'Thas sword, Cataclysm's Edge, Apolyon. At least if you go the PvP weapon route then from Vengeful Gladiator/Brutal Gladiator you can grab the axe for a competitive high end weapon and benefit from the Expertise.
At the above, you're ignoring the fact that the Lionheart has a very powerful strength proc! And also the fact that Slam damage while important (due to non normalised damage) is not all of your damage.
Slam = Base weapon damage + 140 + (weapon speed x ap / 3.5).. Just a quick napkin math at 2000ap with the bottom end range you'd gain about 57 damage on a slam with the Axe, you'd gain about 10 damage to to a Mortal Strike, and you'd lose the 100 STR proc and the sword spec. Is it worth it? Maybe for expertise bonus, but I doubt it. We certainly don't have an accurate simulation or way of testing to find out, but I'd certainly either go for the sword or not go BS at all.
Blacksmithing in the long run has no BIS items anyway, but if you're being realistic about it unless Warmane leave us at T5 for a long time you're probably going to be at Archimonde before you get that KT Sword.Edited: July 27, 2017
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Banned
Lionheart is not bad for Arms. Even without counting sword spec, which is your best choice, it is still ahead of stunherald and almost on par with mooncleaver.
The thing is that going swordsmith means you're stuck with that PvE Lionheart and a bad 1H. Sure, you can use the sword for both tanking and DPS, but it's honestly bad for both - too much stamina for a dps weapon, not enough defensive stats to justify it as a tank weapon. Stunherald is also by far the better choice for PvP than either lionheart or mooncleaver. With mace spec you can dual drakefists as fury pve and stunherald for pvp. Imo, mace spec gives you the best options. Axe spec is if you're an orc with mainspec Arms PvE and offspec Fury PvE :D but I don't think anyone would actually do that.
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Well for me Mooncleaver consistently comes ahead of Lionheart. This is from my spreadsheet (yes, it does model the Lionheart proc) in T4/T5 gear for a Tauren Warrior. I have a serious amount of crit already in this gear (around 45% fully raid buffed as Axe, which would be around 38.5% with Lionheart) which narrows the gap because the lower your crit the better Axe spec is, while Sword spec gets more valuable with higher crit. I would advise anybody who wants to raid as Arms to take Mooncleaver unless they are Human.
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How do you figure Blazefury is not a good tanking weapon? It has 28 stamina, 19 agility and 18 hit meaning it's actually a fantastic tanking threat weapon. Blazefury is arguably the best weapon until BT/MH for a Warrior tank, it certainly has the best threat output for T5 and with 2.4.3 talents in play threat generation is crucial. For sure it's not the best Fury offhand, but then if you're focussing Arms that isn't realy much of an issue.
You're gonna have to elaborate a bit more on your spreadsheet and how it comes to this result, no disrespect but you've shown a 0.1% dps difference between the weapons in your sheet which means if there is 0.1% margin of error in your calculations the results are inaccurate, and nobody yet to this day has created a 100% reliable simulation/sheet. It's largely within the realms of RNG as to which weapon would come out top on any given pull with those numbers.Well for me Mooncleaver consistently comes ahead of Lionheart. This is from my spreadsheet (yes, it does model the Lionheart proc) in T4/T5 gear for a Tauren Warrior. I have a serious amount of crit already in this gear (around 45% fully raid buffed as Axe, which would be around 38.5% with Lionheart) which narrows the gap because the lower your crit the better Axe spec is, while Sword spec gets more valuable with higher crit. I would advise anybody who wants to raid as Arms to take Mooncleaver unless they are Human.
If anything your sheet shows more that they are effectively equal, rather than one better than the other. If you added the value of expertise for the Orc above those results maybe you'd get a number that shows a clear advantage, but then I am (as I and anyone would be) very skeptical of someone's personal private dps simulation spreadsheet being used as evidence.
But anyway i'll concede with you, there is good enough reason to believe that the Axe could be superior with Orc Racial, given the slightly superior static stats on the weapon and the 0.1 speed advantage.Edited: July 27, 2017
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Banned
Mooncleaver is better than Lionheart. Not by much, but it is better. If you're an orc warrior playing exclusively Arms PvE, then Mooncleaver is your best bet. In any other case, however, I'd pick Lionheart + sword spec. Mooncleaver is just ugly, sword spec is more fun and just generally better, and Lionheart is also more enticing than the boring Mooncleaver.
As for the 1h sword, I got King's Defender on my 4th Kara run and I'm not really changing that till T6. I don't like the mace from SSC, I don't like the stat allocation on the BS 1h sword, and if I want a threat weapon, then I can just equip one of my DPS weapons, like many other warriors do anyway.
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I'm using one of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets from EJ, it's still somewhere on google by the name Warrior_DPS_2_EN.xls. IIRC Landsouls spreadsheet was better but I can't find Landsoul for 2.4.3 anywhere anymore...
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Using King's Defender until T6 is a bad idea because of threat generation, it's a great mitigation weapon though for sure. Threat generation is crucial, if your dps are good you will always be facing an uphill struggle and using King's Defender is definitely not a good idea on that front. Blazefury is the best threat weapon, then Mallet of the Tides, you should at least use Mallet.
Yep the only Landsoul sheet I have is the beta version for WOTLK, so level 70 gear but WOTLK talents. But even Landsouls sheet wasn't 100% accurate, if items are within small margins of difference then unless it's a clear obvious difference (like 10 agil vs 11 agil) then you can't really be conclusive of the results of the sheet at all.Edited: July 27, 2017
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Where did you find that sheet? I've been looking for days for something that's at least more accurate than Rawr or the google doc thing.
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Rawr is/was useless to begin with for Warrior because it was so inaccurate, what's the "google doc" you're talking about?
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Would you mind sharing a download link for that? I've searched and all I find is zip files with .exe files in them which likely means malware
Edit: Found it. It has some striking issues, for dualwielders atleast. It doesn't have the option for dualwielding BS weapons, the haste proc simply isn't there for the offhand. it also doesn't have an option for totemtwisting. I honestly have no clue how good it is for arms though, but for fury it was a bit of a let down.Edited: July 28, 2017
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