WotLK BiS warlock low dps in icc

[DarkenedHue]

What you did wrong there is you didn't factor in the value of the stats themselves scaling in tandem with your DPS.

Taking your spreadsheet values - If I did 10k baseline DPS, 1 crit rating would improve my DPS 1.2446. If my baseline DPS was 20k instead, 1 crit rating wouldn't continue to net me only 1.2446. It would be worth almost twice that. Haste and crit interact multiplicatively with not just each other, but also especially with your own spellpower, which plays the role of building a stronger foundation of base damage for the rest of your stats and talents to work off of. They increase each other's values synergistically. That 7.32% spell haste from spellstone is going to be worth more for a 20k DPS warlock than it will be for a 10k DPS one.

And that's ultimately what it comes down to. 7.32% spell haste by itself is enough to be a lot more valuable than 1% more direct damage. It's better than 1% direct damage + 4.27% crit chance just by itself, the 1% more damage on DoTs is simply icing on the cake.

[rc100]

Here are flat numbers, in 2 demo form time for both firestone and spellstone.
Did quick test on HC Dummy.

Firestone - did fall below 10k on 910k damage done.




Spellstone - did fall below 10k on 578k damage done. Did burst less even i had the damage proc from tier set for over 20 sec at start with demon form, which i didnt had on firestone. Did drop below 9k dps aswell.



Difference was almost 100k damage done for the same time.

[DarkenedHue]

The difference between the spellstone and firestone is minute enough that it's something that's going to be incredibly difficult to actually observe empirically, and certainly not over what you call a "quick test". This is the exact kind of min-max question you consult a spreadsheet for, and the spreadsheet says spellstone. Stuff like forcing an early decimation proc or bringing seed of corruption into play also clearly extend that gap in favour of the spellstone.

[rc100]

I have nothing more to say have plenty of videos on full runs with spellstone and firestone. I`m doing more damage when im using firestone, thats i notice for sure.You can keep dps for 10milion damage difference still will be in firestone favour.I take spreadsheet as base after that i do test a lot in real situations like raids and bosses and what goes best there thats what im using.


ps. We all know what spreadsheet say about affliction warlocks as well. But then again, when ptr realm was alive did full test with spell power gems only, haste gems only, crit gems only and normal gems for the bonuses. For like i dont remember 5 milion damage done. Did 5 times each set of gems and the results was not what spreadsheet is saying. Full spell power beat all every time, and wait crit gems was on 2nd best dps follow by little but still normal geming and pure haste was last.So i tent to believe my eyes over all ;]/

[pirania]

any spirit geared, spellstone wearing demo warlocks wanna share and show their actual dps in raids?

[Beanlord]

Using dummies/raids to compare the dps difference of something so trivial (in terms of dps) as wlock stones is extremely crude and ineffective. Your results would be inherently flawed since you'd need at least a hour of non-stop damaging to get anything even remotely accurate. What you're currently doing would be like me saying pi = 3, e = 2 or golden ratio = 1. There's not a single human being that could compare the dps difference between the stones with such small sample sizes (yes, 5 million damange is wayyyyyyyy below what you'd want for accurate results). This is why spreadsheets and dps simulators are handy. They can simulate and compare results of tests done for hundreds of hours in the span of a few minutes for us.

Small edit:
The reason why these sample sizes are considered small is that any type of proc can ultimately compromise the result. Whether you get a 4pT10 proc right at the start, 2 seconds after it, 10 seconds after it matters a lot. So does any other type of proc, trinket sync/desync, etc. These things even out over a long period of time, but as I said, a human is completely incapable of doing this kind of comparison.

[DarkenedHue]

The very fact that you think the damage difference between the stones is something you can go in a raid and have a big showdown against another warlock to figure out which is the better choice betrays that you're simply not well-versed in this particular area.

Edit: Riko articulated it well, it's beyond crude and primitive to change a small variable, whack a dummy for 4 or 5 minutes - or an entire raid, for all the difference that makes - and then think you've made some kind of valid headway.

[trackerone]

The very fact that you think the damage difference between the stones is something you can go in a raid and have a big showdown against another warlock to figure out which is the better choice betrays that you're simply not well-versed in this particular area.

Edit: Riko articulated it well, it's beyond crude and primitive to change a small variable, whack a dummy for 4 or 5 minutes - or an entire raid, for all the difference that makes - and then think you've made some kind of valid headway.

As 6,4k gs demo warlock all I can say that I switched from spellstone to firestone and my dps increase it'sa bit odd but I just think that when you have almost 1400 haste without spellstone you dont need to get more, on heroism with potion+ engi my shadowbolts are 1s.
Also imp got fixed right? (dmg nerfed) P.S still better then felguard xd shame.

[DarkenedHue]

Well at the end of the day, all the anecdotes and dummy tests pertaining to something this tiny don't mean anything (the DPS difference is < 0.5%, in favour of the spellstone at that, but anyway), when various different spreadsheets happen to overwhelmingly line up on one side of the issue. Spellstone is just objectively better, and I even listed a number of valid reasons why in all likelihood it's actually even better than spreadsheets predict it to be. While alternate points of view when presented cogently are conducive to discussion, the mathematical reality of things can't be denied here. If, for some reason, Firestones are really performing better than Spellstones currently then that'd mostly likely be the result of a bug of some kind. I don't think there's much else to add on the subject of stones so I'll just end with that.

Imp damage right now is much more in line with what it should be, yeah. I think a guildy said they saw their Imp's Firebolts go down like 25-30% in damage compared to what it was before the Demonic Knowledge fix, so I'd hope that'd be enough for the Felguard to at least finally edge out ahead. Or maybe not quite yet.

[MissNemo]

It's pretty appalling that you will take the word of spreadsheets over the two demo locks who have just said they have witnessed a dps increase over using Firestone without further investigation, I complety understand the logic behind it. but to unequivocally dismiss it duo to a clash with the spreadsheets is rather doltish. at least have the audacity to entertain the thought to do some ACTUAL research than dismissing it at once.

Rc100 speaks from experience and facts from his history of playing a lock, and he has logged more than 10 of times LoD kills on his lock than you or the other person here have probably played a warlock in icc. both of you are great players, so it's obviously not a simple matter of spreadsheets vs dummy tests. and again this is not RETAIL.

[DarkenedHue]

I'm not opposed to the possibility it might be. I mean, this is a private server. I'm extensively familiar with how deep these things go and how bizarrely unexpected some of these bugs can be, if I say so myself. What you see in this thread, though, is just an example of bad discussion. If another couple of warlocks popped in to share their anecdotes in favour of spellstone it would be equally worthless. That's why I never pointed out how I myself personally always got superior results with the Spellstone. This is a damage difference that's so small as to be basically impossible to reliably perceive as a human. I've repeated this one point several times now. This is what absolutely needs to be understood.

You see these kinds of situations all the time. Some Fury Warrior will change from Toskk's to Umbrage, change his gemming up a bit, and then will swear that he's seen an increase from the last raid. Little things like that. You see stuff like that very frequently and it's exasperating. Private server communities especially can very easily become breeding grounds for bad theorycraft of the kind this thread has seen, and to work against that it's necessary to recognize that the plural of "anecdote" is not "reliable data". Particularly when said anecdotes stand at odds with established information. What might've been more productive is at least acknowledging that most retail information on the matter doesn't agree with you, and then trying to place the source of a possible bug that might explain why you're seeing what you're seeing. "It's not retail" is not a carte blanche to go wild with crackpot theories of any kind and then expect to be entertained without first presenting anything valid. I regret the condescending undertones some of my posts occasionally carry but this is one of those times where there's no other way to spell it out. Firestone is just weaker and to say otherwise is to propagate bad information. I will also go a step further and say that experience, by itself, does all but nothing to qualify you or endow you with any kind of inherent validity on a matter. The more time I spend here, the more convinced of that I get. Experience, under the belt of a person who's not able to convincingly illustrate and justify their positions, and has little to show other than rudimentary practices of the crudest kind, means very little.

[UrbanKnight]

Have you checked the ranks of spells you are using, sounds stupid but I cant see any other reason. Fellguard as pet isnt that big mistake to cost u 6k dps , and u have listed correct rotation so it must be spells, especially if u bought the character over trade, check the trainer and spellbook

[trackerone]

Well at the end of the day, all the anecdotes and dummy tests pertaining to something this tiny don't mean anything (the DPS difference is < 0.5%, in favour of the spellstone at that, but anyway), when various different spreadsheets happen to overwhelmingly line up on one side of the issue. Spellstone is just objectively better, and I even listed a number of valid reasons why in all likelihood it's actually even better than spreadsheets predict it to be. While alternate points of view when presented cogently are conducive to discussion, the mathematical reality of things can't be denied here. If, for some reason, Firestones are really performing better than Spellstones currently then that'd mostly likely be the result of a bug of some kind. I don't think there's much else to add on the subject of stones so I'll just end with that.

Imp damage right now is much more in line with what it should be, yeah. I think a guildy said they saw their Imp's Firebolts go down like 25-30% in damage compared to what it was before the Demonic Knowledge fix, so I'd hope that'd be enough for the Felguard to at least finally edge out ahead. Or maybe not quite yet.

No it will not be even close, I was talking about why felguard is so bad and it's a felguard glyph for sure. FG glyph should give +20% TOTAL attack power for example if FG got a BoK or BoM (same with sp procs from warlock which increase felguard ap) this will change felguard attack power and after that you should calculate a glyph but glyph gives only 20% from the base ap.
FG stats are good (stamina strength etc.), I think maybe melee damage is somehow wrong but I'm not sure atm.

[DarkenedHue]

Hmm, haven't had the chance to get a good comparison since the Imp fixes. Although if I had to hazard a guess on the matter I'd have to say Felguard would pull ahead slightly owing to the better Master Demonologist bonuses, at least on heroic LK, where Seed of Corruption would be quite heavily involved. .

[trackerone]

I was testing but on dummy(since I have break from the game) imp>felguard did more damage with imp but slightly ,still the difference between felguard and imp on demo warlock shouldn't be "slightly", people on retail was using felguard for a reason.
If felguard would work correctly then the difference would be unmatched.