Arcane Tomes/fel armaments and ninjaing

[nubbling]

Keep me down? I'm not down. I honestly could not care less who gets or does not get the items you're so concerned about.

i only meant to say that if no one tries, nothing changes. its not the items im concerned about its a poor behavior by players that i would rather try to correct with my words and actions then try to get some sort of system implemented. change works best when people choose it.

[bigbazz]

It's not like a BOP item because a BOP item doesn't have equal value for all members, a BOP item may be worth potentially thousands of gold to a single member while objectively being entirely useless beyond vendor gold to someone else. A currency item has the same value for all party members, especially in the case of tomes/armaments which are plentiful in supply and are a stable trading currency.

That means that Fel Armament = 10g = 350rep.... All of these things are the same, if the item costs you 10g on the AH then you're in effect taking 10g from other members of the group when you take the item.. Unless you're willing to pay the party their equal share of the value then you're in effect trying to justify "Ninjaing" for your own benefit with a different spin.

[nubbling]

It's not like a BOP item because a BOP item doesn't have equal value for all members, a BOP item may be worth potentially thousands of gold to a single member while objectively being entirely useless beyond vendor gold to someone else. A currency item has the same value for all party members, especially in the case of tomes/armaments which are plentiful in supply and are a stable trading currency.

but bops do have an intrinsic for everyone, you even stated it your self, vendor value. hell they have even more if your an enchanter. that being said.....

That means that Fel Armament = 10g = 350rep.... All of these things are the same, if the item costs you 10g on the AH then you're in effect taking 10g from other members of the group when you take the item.. Unless you're willing to pay the party their equal share of the value then you're in effect trying to justify "Ninjaing" for your own benefit with a different spin.

should some one who needs on a bop pay the rest of the group some sort of percentage of what they would have lost because they didn't get the item? the three problems i see with your arguments are that you seem think that Value is an objective concept when its really subjective, that you fail to consider the value of someones time, and that you seem to think im in this for my self.

[bigbazz]

but bops do have an intrinsic for everyone, you even stated it your self, vendor value. hell they have even more if your an enchanter. that being said.....



should some one who needs on a bop pay the rest of the group some sort of percentage of what they would have lost because they didn't get the item? the three problems i see with your arguments are that you seem think that Value is an objective concept when its really subjective, that you fail to consider the value of someones time, and that you seem to think im in this for my self.

You didn't reply to what I said, you can't keep on arguing by omitting the details. But I find it hilarious that you talk about the value of time when you're argung to deserve a currency more than others, without being willing to give their fair share in return.

Honestly you're just hypocritical in your arguments and you ignore the details, which is not only resulting in you simply not understanding the posts you're replying to but also in you jumping to false conclusions and making counter posts that do not even address what is specifically written in the post you're replying to, causing you to go round and round in circles.

Ultimately this just comes down to greed on your part without being willing to admit it.

Edit : To point out your failings.

but bops do have an intrinsic for everyone, you even stated it your self, vendor value. hell they have even more if your an enchanter. that being said.....

Here you've completely skipped "equal value" part of the post, which was actually the most important part of what you were quoting and central to the entire post. You've failed to read and understand the post and then decided to reply out of context.

should some one who needs on a bop pay the rest of the group some sort of percentage of what they would have lost because they didn't get the item?

You've again missed the point with this, the intention was to point out the fallacy of your point of view. You're unwilling to accept the value of other players time and contributions and are using your subjective view on the situation to try to give more value to your position. You're here unwilling to accept that the item in question is equally valuable to all group members, because the currency is interchangeable/tradable with both gold and the opposite token.

In effect you're saying if 10g drops you're more entitled to it because you need it for reputation, because it's an interchangeable currency of equal value then the argument can also be made for the 10g being a contribution towards any other goal, for all equal participating members of the group... In other words, the fact that the item can be used as a quest does not give you a stronger claim over it just because of your subjective belief of value, and your willingness to dismiss trade value.

he three problems i see with your arguments are that you seem think that Value is an objective concept when its really subjective,

Value can be subjective and objective... A BOP item has both a subjective and objective value, the objective value is the vendor or material price, the subjective value could be 10x or 100x that, depending on the class/spec/individual. Therefor it is not equal value for all members, I pointed this out very clearly in my post, but you didn't read the post properly as usual.

Fel Armaments have an objective value because you can go to the AH and buy/sell them or trade them freely as currency, and because of that the value for all party members is equal.

that you fail to consider the value of someones time, and that you seem to think im in this for my self.

On the contrary it is you who fails to value the time of others, because you're trying to position yourself in a place where you can use your subjective view on a tradable currency as a leverage against your fellow player, trying to argue a stronger claim on the item by dismissing the items status as a tradable currency that has equal value to all members.

That the item has equal value to all is an objective fact, that is not susceptible to opinions or viewpoint.. Because of the fact that it's a tradable currency. If the item were BOP, it would be entirely different.

[taralej]

tl;dr the post of bigbazz - armaments/tomes are currency with equal value to everyone. Gear is not. If a piece of gear is an upgrade to someone, then it has higher value than the value of the currency it would be converted to by an enchanter. Say, you kill Prince and he drops the healer mace. This is a very high-value drop and if there is a healer that wants it, they would get it. Only if there is none, the mace would be passed to an enchanter. This very simple and age-old loot rule shows exactly that - item upgrades > currency. And armaments/tomes = currency. Just like everyone rolls for the Primal Nether and rolls for d/e shards at the end of a HC run, armaments/tomes are also rolled.

By continuing to argue that you deserve armaments/tomes more than others because you picked said faction (in case both currencies are interchangeable) you are slowly showing that you're the greedy one.

Either that, or you continue to show that you're naive by believing you can stop people from rolling Need. There are >10k online on Outland. You're neither the first, nor the last to propose this. It hasn't worked, it will not work. It's like trying to promote communism because in a perfect world it's amazing. Yeah, but this is not a perfect world.

Both ways, you lose if you keep arguing. When you're in a friends/guild group, then you can arrange those things. Otherwise, the set conduct is to just roll Need. By not doing so, you would more often than not harm yourself and look like a fool. By asking other players to only roll Need if it corresponds to their chosen faction, you are favouring players in a random group, which is socially unacceptable. In a random group everyone is equal. This is why people PUG raids, hoping that they can get items which would otherwise go to higher ranked guildies if it were a guild raid.

[Selaya]

i only meant to say that if no one tries, nothing changes. [ .. ]

hi don quixote is that you

[nubbling]

hi don quixote is that you

it really does seem like that huh? the only thing im missing is a sancho. and as for you....

You didn't reply to what I said, you can't keep on arguing by omitting the details.

i was only replying to what arguments i knew i could refute. it doesn't make any sense to purposely discredit yourself by making arguments you don't believe you can back up. but if you really want to see my thought process, just to prove to you that i do read your entire post.

But I find it hilarious that you talk about the value of time when you're argung to deserve a currency more than others, without being willing to give their fair share in return.

you seem to think i believe i deserve something and the others deserve nothing. this is just not true. there are plenty of items i don't get. that's their fair share. you know all the grays, cloth, greens and blues that some one else doesn't win?

Honestly you're just hypocritical in your arguments and you ignore the details, which is not only resulting in you simply not understanding the posts you're replying to but also in you jumping to false conclusions and making counter posts that do not even address what is specifically written in the post you're replying to, causing you to go round and round in circles.

how many times am i going to have to reply to the same argument in your post? at this point im ready to just say "Exhibit A" and move on. and you accuse me of talking in circles. on the part of false conclusions... well.. we will get to that later.

Ultimately this just comes down to greed on your part without being willing to admit it.

see and here you jump to conclusions. i don't see how someone could think im being greedy here when i argue that people shouldn't need on things that others, with the characters they are on preferably, need more then them.

Edit : To point out your failings.

oh boy! is this where the personal attacks begin?

Here you've completely skipped "equal value" part of the post, which was actually the most important part of what you were quoting and central to the entire post. You've failed to read and understand the post and then decided to reply out of context.

except taht i didnt, i pointed out that they do have equal objective value for everyone and that you even said it your self. and now your trying to turn this around on me?

You've again missed the point with this, the intention was to point out the fallacy of your point of view. You're unwilling to accept the value of other players time and contributions and are using your subjective view on the situation to try to give more value to your position. You're here unwilling to accept that the item in question is equally valuable to all group members, because the currency is interchangeable/tradable with both gold and the opposite token.

except that i am, their time is just as valuable as mine the only thing we deserve different things. and the currency items do not hold the same value for everyone. if player A has a currency item and player B wants to buy it. Player B will be willing to pay more for it if player B is the right Faction/race/class/whatever. it is only because of competition that we don't need to do this.

In effect you're saying if 10g drops you're more entitled to it because you need it for reputation, because it's an interchangeable currency of equal value then the argument can also be made for the 10g being a contribution towards any other goal, for all equal participating members of the group... In other words, the fact that the item can be used as a quest does not give you a stronger claim over it just because of your subjective belief of value, and your willingness to dismiss trade value.

im saying if that "10g" drops. that a person that can more efficiently spend that "10g" should be rolling against others who could do the same. its the same concept as with BoPs which is why i keep bring taht up. because i know its a concept that we all can figure out. the only difference is that the gold value differs based on what it sells for to a vendor when a player doesnt need it, disenchanting mats if your an enchanter, or it could be practacly priceless if you will actually equip the item.

Value can be subjective and objective... A BOP item has both a subjective and objective value, the objective value is the vendor or material price, the subjective value could be 10x or 100x that, depending on the class/spec/individual. Therefor it is not equal value for all members, I pointed this out very clearly in my post, but you didn't read the post properly as usual.

for the most part we agree here which is why i didnt bring it up. the only part i dont like is the part where you say...

but you didn't read the post properly as usual.

as usual. that part. its hard to get people to agree with you when you jsut add little stings like that on the end, if you cut that out im sure this will be a much better disscusion.

Fel Armaments have an objective value because you can go to the AH and buy/sell them or trade them freely as currency, and because of that the value for all party members is equal.

yes they have an objective value i never denied that but they also have a subjective one that also imparts "value" one which can be greater for some and less for others. which means that no, they don't have the same value for all party members.

On the contrary it is you who fails to value the time of others, because you're trying to position yourself in a place where you can use your subjective view on a tradable currency as a leverage against your fellow player, trying to argue a stronger claim on the item by dismissing the items status as a tradable currency that has equal value to all members.

i am not trying to position my self in a spot where i can take advantage of others im not sure where your getting this. i am trying to argue for everyone, im sorry that you think that's what i want. i must have not communicated correctly

That the item has equal value to all is an objective fact, that is not susceptible to opinions or viewpoint.. Because of the fact that it's a tradable currency. If the item were BOP, it would be entirely different.

except that it doesn't have equal value to all, ive said it before in this post. and i guess ive got to say it another time. because one person needs an item for rep it gives it a subjective value that is different from the gold value or objective value. giving it a different value from one person to another.

we could argue about this all day but i think we have both made our points. make your response if you must, but i cant see this getting any further. just more circles.

[bigbazz]

If you're agreeing that tomes have equal objective value then you can agree everyone is fully within their rights to roll need on the item without unfairly disadvantaging other players, and the distribution is decided by chance as per the games loot system.

You should then also be able to agree that putting a subjective value on a currency item to strengthen your position ahead of other players is simply greed, given the nature of the item and the trade around it. If you're agreeing to these points then why are you arguing? If you're not agreeing to this then I just direct you back to read through the thread.

[Mercy]

hi don quixote is that you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quixotism

I have to agree it is relevant.

[nubbling]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quixotism

I have to agree it is relevant.

you see the difference is that i know im fighting a losing battle, trying to convince a bunch of people that they have the power in a system they view as inevitable and some feel which is right is.... well im sure you can see how this is going. even so, i dont feel im being impractically niave when i say that all it takes is enough people to decide that this should be run differently and everything changes. my argument with you the whole time has been that change in a system like this can only come when the people who make it up decide its time for a change and make it happen themselves.

[Ingbur]

The current system is perfection incarnate.