Gold squish to maintain healthy economy, fighting gold sellers with AI

[Tribull]

I didnt have time to read it all yet. So the gold gets reduced by half, but the prices of ingame stuff like trainings, mounts, repairs, arena teams etc stays the same? Wtf

[Deathmastered]

Do you even read what I write? Again I am quoting myself from above.....



And I find your statement a bit contradicting. So if the server recover 100% of the initial gold squish but as you said he haven't played at all and thus only have 25% of the initial gold. With the inflation of the server what stops the server from growing from the inital 100% to lets say 400%? Nothing if you don't devalue the currency. And besides, if he stops playing what gives him the right to come back to the exact economy he left? Things change over time and he just needs to adapt to it.

Ok, let me put it other way. People who play will earn gold back. If he wont play he will only get the gold reduced and reduced. Now I'm not saying that is wrong from perspective "play to get gold", but it does decrease the chance that he will want to come back because of the disadvantage.

I didnt have time to read it all yet. So the gold gets reduced by half, but the prices of ingame stuff like trainings, mounts, repairs, arena teams etc stays the same? Wtf

Yes, exactly.

[ollsson]

Ok, let me put it other way. People who play will earn gold back. If he wont play he will only get the gold reduced and reduced. Now I'm not saying that is wrong from perspective "play to get gold", but it does decrease the chance that he will want to come back because of the disadvantage.

Ok lets take your example and just by the easiness of it lets say when you stop play the server stop changing gold.

I said it was an example and just to make it easier to prove my point I said that all gold on the server would stay put.

I am very well aware of that if he doesn't play the server the rest of the server will continue to earn gold whilst he's only getting his gold reduced. BUT you are still missing the most important point of my argument. Everyone lose the exact same % which means their part or size of the economy is the exact same size before as after. So except for the in-game fixed prices like riding, repair and vendors becoming more expensive, everything else will still be ratio based.

And taking someone who don't play for 2+ years as an excuse or argument to not put this in place is crazy. Because if no gold squish would be put in place the inflation would still make him feel poorer compared to the server. The only thing that in his place feels good is that he has the same number he had before.

The biggest problem with a discussion like this is because people are being affected "negatively" themselves they are arguing with feelings and can't use logic or math to see the bigger picture. I believe this is good for the economy and will make it feel more blizzlike after the squish.

[Selaya]

no you're wrong the servers economy rn is stable, and squishing the gold will not help, its more complicated than whatever you're making up, rn there's a stable gold supply (mined from quests, mobs et cetera) - demand (spent on training, ah cuts, repairs et cetera) balance on the servers i know anything about (OL and IC)

besides, expectations: whatever
reality:

If the results were so great, why are we here, at this point?

I'm all for creating good circulation and steady economy, but this is merely a battle with windmill. People see way less incentive to actively participate in eceonomy and sink coins by trading on site. Why bother if next year economy is going to get disturbed again, then what.. next year again? -50% gold is just small part of consequences that will last half a year on economy until it "settles down". This is not "omg I will have less gold" post. I'm highly confident that I will benefit greatly from this squish, same as I did from previous. And so will the chineese farmers. What this accomplishes is people spending gold before squish on boe's and stuff so they don't "lost half" and instead they lose 85% of their wealth - it streams into chineese farmer and few barined people pockets.

[RagnarTheGreat]

Because if no gold squish would be put in place the inflation would still make him feel poorer compared to the server.

You're missing the major point that players have put forth is that Inflation on TBC and WoTLK servers is minute to almost negligible which is why they are unhappy with their gold being taken away with the bull**** and lazy excuse that this is all to fight Botters and Gold sellers when there are better and less universally penalizing methods to combat this. I cannot speak for Neltharion but currently at Frostwolf, the demand for items is now Half of the supply compared to last year. Another gold squish in a couple months will put a long staleness on the AH due to lack of a massive playerbase and a yearly one will just break the morale.

The biggest problem with a discussion like this is because people are being affected "negatively" themselves they are arguing with feelings and can't use logic or math to see the bigger picture. I believe this is good for the economy and will make it feel more blizzlike after the squish.

Here is a simple analogy for you. You are a wage earner who earns 30k a year with 5k in savings. Then there is a multi millionaire who earns millions in a year(possibly through dubious methods) with millions more in savings. The government one day decides to take away half of everyone's money. Now the millionaire is still left with millions in his hand and he can make the lost amount back in a few months(same dubious methods) while you are left with just 15k a year and 2.5k in savings. Supposedly there is an emergency and you need to be unemployed for a year. Next year you are left with just 1.25k in savings while the cost of living stays the same and the millionaire is still unaffected and will continue to make money through legal and illegal means. And you wonder why people are getting emotional.

[dustox]

...all i can say this is bullshiat, only thing that comes in my mind is that SM is no more no1 milking cow... so hey lets take from all of them half of everything they have... once... twice... they'll have to buy now the only thing that actually costs nothing... the gold itself is just numbers inside game... but a really fat milking cow!!!...

...this has nothin to do with economy or anything else... wtf inflation/deflation/ stability wtf are you talking about this place aint no wall street... its game... leave it the way it is...
...players dont get nothin from it... it just more money milkin pwr for server....

[ollsson]

You're missing the major point that players have put forth is that Inflation on TBC and WoTLK servers is minute to almost negligible which is why they are unhappy with their gold being taken away with the bull**** and lazy excuse that this is all to fight Botters and Gold sellers when there are better and less universally penalizing methods to combat this. I cannot speak for Neltharion but currently at Frostwolf, the demand for items is now Half of the supply compared to last year. Another gold squish in a couple months will put a long staleness on the AH due to lack of a massive playerbase and a yearly one will just break the morale.

So can you with evidence say that the prices of items in the Auction House is the exact same that they were a year ago? I am agreeing with you that 50% might be pushing it but hey on the other hand. If they want it more blizzlike thats what you gotta do. But I doubt you can say the prices were exactly as they were a year ago. But what you and lots of the other people are missing is that because everyone is being deprived of the same % of gold. Only the numbers goes down. Everyone still has as much as gold as before compared to everyone else.

I cannot speak for Frostwolf because I hardly play there and I don't know anything about the inflation on that server.

Here is a simple analogy for you. You are a wage earner who earns 30k a year with 5k in savings. Then there is a multi millionaire who earns millions in a year(possibly through dubious methods) with millions more in savings. The government one day decides to take away half of everyone's money. Now the millionaire is still left with millions in his hand and he can make the lost amount back in a few months(same dubious methods) while you are left with just 15k a year and 2.5k in savings. Supposedly there is an emergency and you need to be unemployed for a year. Next year you are left with just 1.25k in savings while the cost of living stays the same and the millionaire is still unaffected and will continue to make money through legal and illegal means. And you wonder why people are getting emotional.

Okay first of all, I find this analogy very strange. You assume the wage earner who earns less is doing everything legal but the millionaire is doing it illegally? Just about here you lost all my credibility when you can't make a proper comparison.

Secondly, You're right that he can make the lost money back (yet again why throw in illegally? Just because you're rich you must do it illegally?). But what you forget to say is, what stops the poor wage earner from doing the same? Especially on Warmane, is there anything that stops the poor newly dinged lvl 80 from maxing 1 profession and go out in the world to farm stuff to sell on the Auction House?

And the third thing I find very very weird with your analogy is that the multi-millionaire can easily earn back all his money in no time but the wage earner haven't saved anymore in savings and thus its decreasing? So one person which I assume is active and farms, earns his millions while the wage earner is someone who don't play much and maybe don't play at all because he don't increase his savings?

The example above yet again show how people argue with emotions. You are using your emotions and instantly with the analogy paint out the rich person as someone who have done something illegally to earn his wealth while the wage earner is struggling by legal means. You are in your analogy trying to show how someone who is rich = crooked and don't deserves his millions.

If we take it one step further, so if the multi millionaire had let's say 40 million before the squish. He's now left with 20 million and thus lost 20 million. The wage earner had 5k and now have 2.5k thus lost only 2.5k. How can you say this is fair then? Why should we think its wrong for someone to take 2.5k but at the same time its okay to take 20 million just because he has more? You see how I argue with logic rather than my feelings?

So please I encourage you to come with arguments that disproves me but please do so without using your emotions in the arguments.

[RagnarTheGreat]

So can you with evidence say that the prices of items in the Auction House is the exact same that they were a year ago? I am agreeing with you that 50% might be pushing it but hey on the other hand. If they want it more blizzlike thats what you gotta do. But I doubt you can say the prices were exactly as they were a year ago.

I never mentioned anything vis-a-vis prices in the AH so I dont know why you would bring that up. You are speaking in ratios of gold but you dont seem to understand the numbers in the ratios. Gold with 3 people before gold squish - 2:3:10000. Gold with 3 people after gold squish - 1:1.5:5000. I don't know how to put it more simply to you. There is negligible inflation. The poor sods with 2k-3k gold cannot afford basic utilities while the buying power of the one with 10 million gold still stays the same. How is that in any way fair ? Like others said the only way to make this fair is reducing the squish % on players with varying amount of golds i.e. 10% on less than 3k, 20% on less then 10k and 30% on less than 17k up untill 90% on less than a million.

Okay first of all, I find this analogy very strange. You assume the wage earner who earns less is doing everything legal but the millionaire is doing it illegally? Just about here you lost all my credibility when you can't make a proper comparison.l

You seem to be brain dead after I read this argument. I said the millionaire might "POSSIBLY" be using suspicious methods to reach this amount of wealth. Google "probability".

But what you forget to say is, what stops the poor wage earner from doing the same?

Exactly the point here. The issue Warmane is making here is that it is pointless to earn your gold the legal way when they are being punished for doing just that while the gold sellers and botters go on with their merry lives and continue doing it. This is a punishment for being within the T&C of Warmane while those who break it continue to break it and might as well encourage everyone else to start botting and buying from TP sites since you're ****ed either way.

And the third thing I find very very weird with your analogy is that the multi-millionaire can easily earn back all his money in no time but the wage earner haven't saved anymore in savings and thus its decreasing? So one person which I assume is active and farms, earns his millions while the wage earner is someone who don't play much and maybe don't play at all because he don't increase his savings?

The example above yet again show how people argue with emotions. You are using your emotions and instantly with the analogy paint out the rich person as someone who have done something illegally to earn his wealth while the wage earner is struggling by legal means. You are in your analogy trying to show how someone who is rich = crooked and don't deserves his millions.

Just what the actual **** ? At no point did I imply all rich people are crooked. Don't pull out arguments out of thin air just to defend your inability to understand how this affects ALL players and not just the poor and rich. I personally had millions before the first Gold squish which was reduced to still hundreds of thousands all acquired through AH and in-game methods and I was one of the less active people on the AH.

If we take it one step further, so if the multi millionaire had let's say 40 million before the squish. He's now left with 20 million and thus lost 20 million. The wage earner had 5k and now have 2.5k thus lost only 2.5k. How can you say this is fair then? Why should we think its wrong for someone to take 2.5k but at the same time its okay to take 20 million just because he has more? You see how I argue with logic rather than my feelings?

Definitely does not understand how the economy works. The key here is not in the amount lost by each person but in the difference in purchasing power after the loss. You want logical arguments but you are blind to logic. There are no feelings involved in my argument. The only feeling I have about the gold squish is that it is an ineffective method to stop Botters and Gold sellers. Hell, I wont even mind if they decided to take 95% of my wealth if it meant the immediate end of all Botters and Gold sellers and that the can never return.

[sexyboy008]

dude really? i have 1600 gold on my 8 characters,200 gold each character. and you're gonna take half of it, this **** is heartless.
you own the whole server you should be giving away free gold to poor people.
for earning this gold i died 69 times and you people just dont care if i die or live
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/13/4e/cc/1...oss-quotes.jpg
and you're not doing any of the above......
#IDONTLOVEYOU

[Sc00pie]

the main prob is I am saving for epic flying and if i get to 4999 gold and you squash the gold then i have another 2.5k to farm
SAD TIMES

[ollsson]

I never mentioned anything vis-a-vis prices in the AH so I dont know why you would bring that up. You are speaking in ratios of gold but you dont seem to understand the numbers in the ratios. Gold with 3 people before gold squish - 2:3:10000. Gold with 3 people after gold squish - 1:1.5:5000. I don't know how to put it more simply to you. There is negligible inflation. The poor sods with 2k-3k gold cannot afford basic utilities while the buying power of the one with 10 million gold still stays the same. How is that in any way fair ? Like others said the only way to make this fair is reducing the squish % on players with varying amount of golds i.e. 10% on less than 3k, 20% on less then 10k and 30% on less than 17k up untill 90% on less than a million.

We were talking about inflation, to me that kinda implies Auction House prices. Now why would prices of lets say riding skill change? So yes the inflation we're talking about here is the one that the Auction House reflects well. When the price of for example Primo's go up from 500g/each to 1000g/each. Now that is the inflation. And with a gold squish the supply and demand will bring it down to more reasonable prices again.

I understand numbers and ratios quite fine thank you, I am on my last year in my master of engineering with a bachelor in economy on the side so I think I understand this quite more than most people here. How would the purchasing power of said poor sods change if the prices in-game changes as well? And I feel like I have to make it clear once again, I am not talking about riding skill, vendor prices or anything that is a fixed price. I am talking pure Auction House prices now. Have dynamic % squish because of your amount of gold is just plain stupid communism ideas. Of course everyone is gonna have the exact same %. The people with more gold is already losing more so making their % even higher is just stupidity.

You seem to be brain dead after I read this argument. I said the millionaire might "POSSIBLY" be using suspicious methods to reach this amount of wealth. Google "probability".

Thank you for attacking my intelligence, just shows on what level you do your arguments. And not emotional at all when you bring personal attacks into this. What I was meaning with my comment is, why even bring illegal ways of farming into the analogy? It just shows how you feel and try to "black talk" the rich people even in the analogy. Why even add "possibly" to the analogy? Isn't it better to assume everything is equal except the amount of gold? That sounds like a far better analogy from a logic perspective.

Exactly the point here. The issue Warmane is making here is that it is pointless to earn your gold the legal way when they are being punished for doing just that while the gold sellers and botters go on with their merry lives and continue doing it. This is a punishment for being within the T&C of Warmane while those who break it continue to break it and might as well encourage everyone else to start botting and buying from TP sites since you're ****ed either way.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I never meant botters and exploiters as the rich people here. I simply meant hardcore farming players who play honestly and farm all their materials to sell on the Auction House in a legit way. And cannot in any way see how gold squish would encourage botting? We're back on the most simple thing. Everyone lose exactly the same % of their gold meaning they all have the same % wealth of the total economy. It is just the numbers that changes. How would this encourage botting?

Just what the actual **** ? At no point did I imply all rich people are crooked. Don't pull out arguments out of thin air just to defend your inability to understand how this affects ALL players and not just the poor and rich. I personally had millions before the first Gold squish which was reduced to still hundreds of thousands all acquired through AH and in-game methods and I was one of the less active people on the AH.

So you didn't imply that the rich people in your analogy had gotten their money illegally when you twice mentioned how they "might" get it illegal? As I said above, why even imply it if that's not what you mean?

Definitely does not understand how the economy works. The key here is not in the amount lost by each person but in the difference in purchasing power after the loss. You want logical arguments but you are blind to logic. There are no feelings involved in my argument. The only feeling I have about the gold squish is that it is an ineffective method to stop Botters and Gold sellers. Hell, I wont even mind if they decided to take 95% of my wealth if it meant the immediate end of all Botters and Gold sellers and that the can never return.

As I said above, I am finishing a master of engineering and a bachelor in economy on the side, so I am pretty sure I understand economy. And I have played on Warmane/molten since 2010/2011 so I kinda understand how this economy works as well. How can I possibly be blind to logic? I am trying to explain to you how dividing everything by 2, no one will become richer and no one will become poorer (except for towards in-game fixed prices). But compared to each other no one has become more poor.

[Anyone0]

We were talking about inflation, to me that kinda implies Auction House prices. Now why would prices of lets say riding skill change? So yes the inflation we're talking about here is the one that the Auction House reflects well. When the price of for example Primo's go up from 500g/each to 1000g/each. Now that is the inflation. And with a gold squish the supply and demand will bring it down to more reasonable prices again.

50% gold squish is equal to a sudden 100% inflation. Prices will be a mess for a few months but, since rates are not changing, prices will eventually stabilize where they are now. And if you save the gold and lose 50% of it, you can buy 50% less with it. So it's basically a 100% inflation combined with 50% reduction in the numbers you see, which visually hides the fact that it's actually inflation.

[RagnarTheGreat]

We were talking about inflation, to me that kinda implies Auction House prices. Now why would prices of lets say riding skill change? So yes the inflation we're talking about here is the one that the Auction House reflects well. When the price of for example Primo's go up from 500g/each to 1000g/each. Now that is the inflation. And with a gold squish the supply and demand will bring it down to more reasonable prices again.

With that bachelors in Economics I would've expected you to understand that taking away everyone's money is not the only effective method to reduce inflation. Will it bring prices down for a short time ? Yes. Is it sustainable ? No. Because for the last time, Botters and Gold sellers will continue to flood the market. One effective way would be to increase the AH cut on items Sold Out.

I understand numbers and ratios quite fine thank you, I am on my last year in my master of engineering with a bachelor in economy on the side so I think I understand this quite more than most people here. How would the purchasing power of said poor sods change if the prices in-game changes as well? And I feel like I have to make it clear once again, I am not talking about riding skill, vendor prices or anything that is a fixed price. I am talking pure Auction House prices now. Have dynamic % squish because of your amount of gold is just plain stupid communism ideas. Of course everyone is gonna have the exact same %. The people with more gold is already losing more so making their % even higher is just stupidity.

Okay Mr. Bachelor in Economics lets ignore the most basic and important gold dump in game i.e. Vendors, training and skill ups which take up a considerable amount of money and talk about pure AH prices. AH prices rely on the cost of producing the item+profit surely you know that.

[QUOTE=ollsson;2868659]Thank you for attacking my intelligence, just shows on what level you do your arguments. And not emotional at all when you bring personal attacks into this. What I was meaning with my comment is, why even bring illegal ways of farming into the analogy? It just shows how you feel and try to "black talk" the rich people even in the analogy. Why even add "possibly" to the analogy? Isn't it better to assume everything is equal except the amount of gold? That sounds like a far better analogy from a logic perspective.

Why even bring Illegal ways of farming into the anology ? My dear friend that is what the entire gold squish is based on and the reason for this 16 page thread. I don't know what Black Talk is but assuming it is something derogatory. Then again I am also one of the "Rich People" who got rich by legit means and there are several others just like me. Then there are those who got rich by illegit methods, hence the "possibly".

[QUOTE=ollsson;2868659]There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I never meant botters and exploiters as the rich people here. I simply meant hardcore farming players who play honestly and farm all their materials to sell on the Auction House in a legit way. And cannot in any way see how gold squish would encourage botting? We're back on the most simple thing. Everyone lose exactly the same % of their gold meaning they all have the same % wealth of the total economy. It is just the numbers that changes. How would this encourage botting?

The hardcore farmers are a very minuscule amount of people in the game who can afford to invest their time into farming and playing the AH. As you must already know, majority of players here are those who cannot afford to spend hours on a day to grind mats and craft stuff. These are the people with jobs, kids, families and other commitments. They cannot realistically become "hardcore farmers". If they could, there wouldn't be an inflation in the first place as the supply of goods will far outweigh the actual demand. How could this encourage botting ? Well, they can't farm like others and botters are not suffering from this decision so they could just get a bot to grind for them while they go on about their work.

So you didn't imply that the rich people in your analogy had gotten their money illegally when you twice mentioned how they "might" get it illegal? As I said above, why even imply it if that's not what you mean?

No, I implied a possibility which holds truth because there indeed exist botters. I meant it as a possibility that some of them are botting, not all of them.

As I said above, I am finishing a master of engineering and a bachelor in economy on the side, so I am pretty sure I understand economy.

Thank you for the reminder.

And I have played on Warmane/molten since 2010/2011 so I kinda understand how this economy works as well. How can I possibly be blind to logic?

God complex much ?

I am trying to explain to you how dividing everything by 2, no one will become richer and no one will become poorer (except for towards in-game fixed prices). But compared to each other no one has become more poor.

True, but in game fixed prices are one of the major issues here. If this was purely an AH price squish, no one would have a problem with it.

[trumpftwx]

We were talking about inflation, to me that kinda implies Auction House prices. Now why would prices of lets say riding skill change? So yes the inflation we're talking about here is the one that the Auction House reflects well. When the price of for example Primo's go up from 500g/each to 1000g/each. Now that is the inflation. And with a gold squish the supply and demand will bring it down to more reasonable prices again.

I understand numbers and ratios quite fine thank you, I am on my last year in my master of engineering with a bachelor in economy on the side so I think I understand this quite more than most people here. How would the purchasing power of said poor sods change if the prices in-game changes as well? And I feel like I have to make it clear once again, I am not talking about riding skill, vendor prices or anything that is a fixed price. I am talking pure Auction House prices now. Have dynamic % squish because of your amount of gold is just plain stupid communism ideas. Of course everyone is gonna have the exact same %. The people with more gold is already losing more so making their % even higher is just stupidity.




Thank you for attacking my intelligence, just shows on what level you do your arguments. And not emotional at all when you bring personal attacks into this. What I was meaning with my comment is, why even bring illegal ways of farming into the analogy? It just shows how you feel and try to "black talk" the rich people even in the analogy. Why even add "possibly" to the analogy? Isn't it better to assume everything is equal except the amount of gold? That sounds like a far better analogy from a logic perspective.





There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I never meant botters and exploiters as the rich people here. I simply meant hardcore farming players who play honestly and farm all their materials to sell on the Auction House in a legit way. And cannot in any way see how gold squish would encourage botting? We're back on the most simple thing. Everyone lose exactly the same % of their gold meaning they all have the same % wealth of the total economy. It is just the numbers that changes. How would this encourage botting?





So you didn't imply that the rich people in your analogy had gotten their money illegally when you twice mentioned how they "might" get it illegal? As I said above, why even imply it if that's not what you mean?





As I said above, I am finishing a master of engineering and a bachelor in economy on the side, so I am pretty sure I understand economy. And I have played on Warmane/molten since 2010/2011 so I kinda understand how this economy works as well. How can I possibly be blind to logic? I am trying to explain to you how dividing everything by 2, no one will become richer and no one will become poorer (except for towards in-game fixed prices). But compared to each other no one has become more poor.

All your degree and ''logic'' is irrelevant if you cant distinguish real world economy with WoW economy.

In WoW gold is created by quest rewards, looting mobs and selling items.

Gold disappears when you repair, buy item or skill from vendor, pay fee in AH.

As you can realize this means there will be always more gold created than ''destroyed''.

This means that AH prices will inflate forever until a gold sink is created that majority of players will try to get.


Reducing the total amount of gold by 50% only reduces the prices in AH for couple months before they come back to their previous level and inflate even further.

Saying that your ''buying power'' doesnt change is not true.
examples:
You have 10000 gold
You farm quests for 100G/hour
Earn gold from proffesions for 100g/hour
Nether vortex costs 100g
Item from vendor costs 50g
wipe repairs costs 50g
talent reset costs 50g
280% flying costs 5000g

first month after squish assuming AH prices get reduced by 50%.


You have 5000 gold
You farm quests for 100G/hour
Earn gold from proffesions for 50g/hour
Nether vortex costs 50g
Item from vendor costs 50g
wipe repairs costs 50g
talent reset costs 50g
280% flying costs 5000g

In the end all you achieved is delaying AH inflation mostly by screwing over player who are farming gold for seomthing like flying. This is not a good solution for 90% of the player base who are casual and are saving gold for flying mount/epic items.
All this means for them is that they lost they earned gold and now need to farm for their flying mounts even longer.

Only players who are affected positively by this change are people who have no gold.

Gold sellers and bots who make their gold from quests and mobs will greatly benefit.

[TheFeeler]

I dont post much into such big threads. but sometimes its a must. @Warmane what if after the so called squish people decide to put Primos at lets say 1000 Gold/per unit. or more. and theres no lower. Selaya and i saw Leulz Posts too. are pretty much right. as well veterans. after the last squish i dont think theres need of another. as people saying its stable ah. people that saying there must be a gold squish. lol. do you people even play daily? or once or twice a week.