In a traditional system, you are paying a monthly fee. If you don't like the fact there are people here paying for everyone else to play for free and they get some benefits for it, this simply isn't the place for you.
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Moderator
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Member
Maybe you shouldn't quote pieces of text out of context and then read between the lines for the sake of making a defensive reply to something that isn't explicitily stated or implied.
Edited: October 31, 2017
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Moderator
It's explicitly stated that it "affects other players" with the reasoning about "traditional systems." I don't need to say anything about the rest of your post to state a simple: if you don't like that reality, our servers aren't for you - which also applies to the restrictions on Lorderon.
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Member
This is really on you here, an emotional reponse to you taking meaning from a post that isn't written. You're reading between the lines, my post was an observation and should be taken as a whole, not in parts. It's certainly not a statement of personal opinion and it's definitely not open to interpretation, I wrote it pretty clearly as an observation to be taken as written.
An observation of a situation or a fact is not an opinion, you can choose to deny the observation but I think you'd have a pretty hard time making a convincing case towards the contrary, because what I wrote was fair and logical. Whether or not I like the model or want to play on it is pretty irrelevant, it's not an opinion it's an observation to give insight into why someone might not like the server, or might have a poor experience on the server.
Reading comprehension is important on the internet, most arguements happen because of a lack of effort on the part of others to fully read and understand the point of view and intent of a post. Your decision to pull some text out of context and then to jump to your own conclusion of the meaning and intent (rather than what is written, as it's written) is the only issue here.. Which is also why I will not address you directly on the topic, you're not on the same page and you write as if you're looking for an argument.
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Moderator
So, when did you get chosen as the herald for every single player in Icecrown, so that you have facts, not just a personal opinion that is irrelevant to all the thousands of people playing and having fun instead of whining because of a pixel-equipment version of penis envy?
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Member
You just did it again, if you weren't a moderator I'd tell you to go have a cup of tea and go back and then re-read my post with a calm and clear mind. Because none of this is making any sense, I'm not going to engage you in this because you've still not actually read my post and you're just going on a tangent around a topic/subject that is irrelevant in relation to my post.
It's interesting that I've effectively defended the OP with logical reasons to show how gear affects players more than pixel envy, and you've decided to ignore the entirety of that and jump straight to pinning me for pixel envy and some mild "server bashing". Should I tell you that my Icecrown Warrior has 2 trinkets and a weapon purchased from coins? Or that my Outland Warrior has a DST purchased with coins? Regardless of my actions or opinions, my post is just an observation and doesn't have to be in line with my opinions or actions.
You seem to be unwilling to read my post in full and understand where I'm coming from, so I will just leave it there.
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Moderator
I'v read your post. I've been here for many, many years and, as awesome and original as you might believe you were, your post has shown up since we were called Molten. It's still nothing but personal opinions, which you try to push as "facts" to give them an aura of "undeniable validity."
The things you point out are only your personal opinion for as long as people don't care about what you claim to happen, and all you claim can happen just the same with people who get fully carried by a guild or friends who rush them to get equipped without skills to match. On the other hand, many people who have played retail and know how to play better than many (or even most) of the supposedly skilled who get equipped by drops can just not want to bother with doing it all over again and instead use coins to skip the process, not having achievements and other bragging rights, and still performing much better than those who do.
What you say on your second point has little to do with there being a coin shop, but the fact we have a server that has been at the same content for years and will remain so. People have had enough time to gear up to the best they could. When people are going for an instance and want it to be a steamrolling, they ask for extremely high gear, which they expect lots of people to have, so the run will be fast. Guess what? People that don't match those requirements are perfectly capable of starting their own raids without such requirements. But it's easier to complain instead.
So, you see, as I said in my first post, it all comes down to: if you don't like this reality, our servers aren't for you. Going through your "same old, same old" post didn't change that.
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Member
This leaves the question, what guilds are you applying for? There are still tons of guilds progressing towards their first LK normal kills, that will take you to ICC with 5k gear score. Localized guilds usually don't have any gear requirements. Gear just becomes an issue, if you don't want to put some effort into progression.
And to be honest, Lordaeron has similar issues. To the first, there's also a character trade option. I've seen chars with the 25hc FWH achievement for sale. So, neither gear nor achievements are a secure way to determine someones "skill". To the second, at least for pugs, because of the realms design you have to out-gear the content. Getting a virgin char into ICC is not a little bit easier than it is on Icecrown.
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Member
What is this meant to be a personal dig or something? I've been playing since around 2013 yes, that is on Icecrown, on Lordaeron and on Outland, I'm not entirely sure what relevance that has at all? What does asking you to read my post calmly have to do with you looking up my post history for the last 4 years, or why it is relevant whether you feel my views are original or awesome?
It seems like you're taking things personal here and wanting to try to demean or devalue what I have to say? Can we not keep the irrelevant childish personal digs out of this and just stick to the topic?
My observations are not facts, they are observations of situations or facts.. That's what I wrote, I didn't write that they were facts. They do however have a very easy to support statistical viewpoint... If gear is earned via defeating challenges then it can be related to skill and experience (since those are directly tied to overcoming those challenges), causing the average skill/experience of players to increase as the gear level increases. If you take away the requirement to defeat content to earn gear then this is no longer true.It's still nothing but personal opinions, which you try to push as "facts" to give them an aura of "undeniable validity."
This is hard to argue against, it's not something that requires an opinion because it's simple statistical analysys, it's an observation of the system.
What I claim to happen does happen for a lot of people, it's a reality of the situation on the server that applies to many players, but not all of them. Regardless of the fact that this is entirely situation and individual depending, it is still a real thing that occurs on a day to day basis, it is a real part of the server for many players and is widely discussed on a fairly regular basis.
The things you point out are only your personal opinion for as long as people don't care about what you claim to happen, and all you claim can happen just the same with people who get fully carried by a guild or friends who rush them to get equipped without skills to match. On the other hand, many people who have played retail and know how to play better than many (or even most) of the supposedly skilled who get equipped by drops can just not want to bother with doing it all over again and instead use coins to skip the process, not having achievements and other bragging rights, and still performing much better than those who do.
Using coins to skip the process is fine, but you're ignoring the statistical analysis point of looking at the data and assessing averages.. Sure there are many players who turn up and buy a full gearset and are genuine rank 1 gladiators or top 100 raiders from retail... But we are not talking statistical anomalies we're talking stastical averages.
What you say on your second point has little to do with there being a coin shop, but the fact we have a server that has been at the same content for years and will remain so. People have had enough time to gear up to the best they could. When people are going for an instance and want it to be a steamrolling, they ask for extremely high gear, which they expect lots of people to have, so the run will be fast.
It has a fair bit to do with there being a coin shop, because the coin shop accelerates the process of gearing while reducing the natural process of fully geared players dropping out of the system from stopping playing or taking breaks. There is less organic rise in gear level causing the average gear level of the server to remain higher than in an organic non shop system, because in an organic system when a high geared player drops out the new players that replace him/her generally have to take a much longer route up. A Shadowmourne on retail was something around a 2 month + project, on Icecrown that is not the case.
The reasons behind wanting to steamroll content do not change the fact, you're using justification here as an argument towards an observation.. It's an observation of the system, it's not an opinion that needs a counter argument or a justification..
Guess what? People that don't match those requirements are perfectly capable of starting their own raids without such requirements. But it's easier to complain instead.
So, you see, as I said in my first post, it all comes down to: if you don't like this reality, our servers aren't for you. Going through your "same old, same old" post didn't change that.
Yes people can start their own groups, but you're purposely ignoring the point here. If you look at the server as a whole and the day to day social dynamics, expectations of the general playerbase and the individual experiences of players then you will see why making their own groups may not always be an effective or realistic option. And ultimately what we're talking about here is the overall experience of the server as an observation to support a view that is regularly stated (such as in the OP), denying that it has an effect on the server doesn't change anything for those players.
Observation is the key here, you're just turning it into argument where you're pitting your arguments against what you think are my opinions or views, based on you taking meaning that isn't written from my posts. And "same old same old" posts exactly what? Did I say in 2013 that I didn't like the shop? I guess you probably also missed where I said I didn't like the shop but also felt it was necessary, feel free to dig up those posts because there are plenty of them that you have decided not to highlight.
Ignore what was written, come to your own conclusions based on emotions and feelings and then turn it into a personal dispute rather than discussing the subject, great discussion.
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Moderator
No, I don't care who you are or how long you've been here. I was talking about the content of your post. It's whining as old as Molten.
Your "observations" are opinions.
It happening doesn't makes it be a "server issue" because of a coin shop. A lot of things happen every day. A lot of things would happen just the same without a coin shop, these included.
Statistical averages are that a very small amount of players donate, and an even much tinier do for more than the minimum to skip queues. Fully gearing with coins? I wish they were more than a "statistical anomaly."
See above.
The desire to steamroll would still exist without a coin shop. Lots of players are fully geared after all these years. They don't want to carry people, they want to no-brain it quickly for the loot and nothing else. On that being people who geared with coins, see above.
If that many people are undergeared, there's no reason for it to be unrealistic. If most people are uber geared, it's not their fault and they shouldn't be expected to not want to steamroll content for the sake of newbies. That's what getting in a guild and helped exists for.
Your observations are just your personal opinions, no matter how you try to paint them as more than that.
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Member
I stopped reading at this point. "Lack of population" on Lordaeron. As a Neltharion player I don't know what you're talking about. You sir made my day.
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Member
I legit hope you're trolling.
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Member
lack of population
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Member
@ Obnoxious
An observation is neither an opinion nor a fact, it is unbiased in intent.. Observe the situation and describe it as it appears, as it happens, as it is. It can be wrong if details are missed, it can only be biased if the intent to be false is present, at which point it is no longer an honest observation.
I've had enough of going around in circles with you, your replies towards me show nothing but a personal dispute and unwillingness to look at the situation from a neutral point of view, constantly taking the defensive and taking your own meaning from words rather than what is stated.. It's not possible to have a discussion with you because you had no intent to have a discussion from the first reply, where you quoted some text out of context and then deciphered your own meanings from what was written.
Just know that your ability to constantly find a way to stay on the offensive with your posts does not add credibility to what you say, and your general postings only shows a real tendancy to be in denial of reality. The fact that gear or the coin system has the effects I describe does not need to be seen as either a negative or a positive, it's a situation of "It is what it is". But rather you have chosen to instead deny it completely and turn the discussion into a personal attack where you will give no credit, no 2 way conversation, just deny it outright and try to discredit the poster instead.
Anyway, I'm done.. My first post said it quite accurately so have a good day.
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Moderator
Now that's something I can agree and use to describe your "observations," if I wasn't being clear already, reason why I never felt the need for the talk to be two-way and simply an exposition that this isn't a case of "it is what it is," but of a case of you saying a verbose version of "I'm biased and this is what it is because I say so."
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