1. @Obnoxious: Do you even play on Icecrown?
    Have you tried "making your own raid" with:
    A:The proper,not inflated gear requirements?
    B:Waiting for four hours to get together a somewhat decent group,as you can't be too picky(not gearscore,but proper gear,good enchants,gemming and talents,achievments) because it takes a very,very long time to gather people and half the time you spend is about replacing leavers/people that go offline?
    C:Not seeing half the raid getting carried even though they have heroic items?
    D:People failing even after tactics are explained,and having the needed achievments?
    E:Leaders that don't know **** about how to distribute loot/players rolling on items they shouldn't,and they even try to report you just because they don't understand even after explaining it the 10th time as to why they won't get let's say the nice melee weapon as a hunter.
    These are the daily struggles of most IC raiders,those who are not part of end-game guilds that ask for heroic gear as base requirements,then livestream as one of their members jump off the cliff during phase change on heroic lk,because he doesn't know when will the platform appear.
    And lastly:If gear wasn't obtained by the way bigbazz described basic wow gearing process,then how?

  2. @Obnoxious: Do you even play on Icecrown?
    Have you tried "making your own raid" with:
    A:The proper,not inflated gear requirements?
    B:Waiting for four hours to get together a somewhat decent group,as you can't be too picky(not gearscore,but proper gear,good enchants,gemming and talents,achievments) because it takes a very,very long time to gather people and half the time you spend is about replacing leavers/people that go offline?
    C:Not seeing half the raid getting carried even though they have heroic items?
    D:People failing even after tactics are explained,and having the needed achievments?
    E:Leaders that don't know **** about how to distribute loot/players rolling on items they shouldn't,and they even try to report you just because they don't understand even after explaining it the 10th time as to why they won't get let's say the nice melee weapon as a hunter.
    These are the daily struggles of most IC raiders,those who are not part of end-game guilds that ask for heroic gear as base requirements,then livestream as one of their members jump off the cliff during phase change on heroic lk,because he doesn't know when will the platform appear.
    And lastly:If gear wasn't obtained by the way bigbazz described basic wow gearing process,then how?
    How is any of that caused by the fact a minority of people use the coin shop to get all their gear? If anything your points show that people who didn't use the coin shop have those issues instead.

  3. How is any of that caused by the fact a minority of people use the coin shop to get all their gear? If anything your points show that people who didn't use the coin shop have those issues instead.
    You did not answer my first and most(and only) important question:Do you play in Icecrown?

    So suffering from cash shop's negative effects are the players problem whom chose the legit way?
    Because most of the time these unnaturally geared,or character purchasing players that **** up things - you can't trust gear inspect,you can't trust achievments,you can't trust asking questions because it takes 3 seconds to google the answer - these would be a much smaller problem because mostly experienced raiders would have the gear/achievments that shows they're capable of clearing the raids without the shops.
    So a minority,just at the emblem vendors in dalaran there were 4 players with BiS/heroic weapons without stepping inside ICC - and that was a minute spent tabbed to my client.I'm pretty sure if i wanted to waste some time i could come up with some numbers by sitting just in dalaran.You're speaking of minority - do you know and want to show exact percentages?Or i should just believe instead of being shown some evidence - not the amount of skip donators,but actual number of gear pieces sold - no need for each piece,an overall number sold is enough.I understand that "donations" in the staffs opinion are required to keep up the servers(although i've experienced 9k+ playerbase with only vanity mounts and pets/items store elsewhere),but the main charm of warmane is not the quality of scripting,amount of players,but the cash shops,even if lordaeron would turn into a proper 1x rate server without custom raid buffs and restrictions,it would fall behind icecrown still by much,simply because there's no way to obtain gear other than raiding.

  4. You did not answer my first and most(and only) important question:Do you play in Icecrown?
    It's not important by any stretch of the meaning of "importance," as players themselves don't see it as such a huge and prohibitive deal.

    So suffering from cash shop's negative effects are the players problem whom chose the legit way?
    Because most of the time these unnaturally geared,or character purchasing players that **** up things - you can't trust gear inspect,you can't trust achievments,you can't trust asking questions because it takes 3 seconds to google the answer - these would be a much smaller problem because mostly experienced raiders would have the gear/achievments that shows they're capable of clearing the raids without the shops.
    So a minority,just at the emblem vendors in dalaran there were 4 players with BiS/heroic weapons without stepping inside ICC - and that was a minute spent tabbed to my client.I'm pretty sure if i wanted to waste some time i could come up with some numbers by sitting just in dalaran.You're speaking of minority - do you know and want to show exact percentages?Or i should just believe instead of being shown some evidence - not the amount of skip donators,but actual number of gear pieces sold - no need for each piece,an overall number sold is enough.I understand that "donations" in the staffs opinion are required to keep up the servers(although i've experienced 9k+ playerbase with only vanity mounts and pets/items store elsewhere),but the main charm of warmane is not the quality of scripting,amount of players,but the cash shops,even if lordaeron would turn into a proper 1x rate server without custom raid buffs and restrictions,it would fall behind icecrown still by much,simply because there's no way to obtain gear other than raiding.
    So you use an example of people "with heroic gear wanting to be carried" and automatically assume they have donated. I guess the next person they play with, after you carried them, will assume the gear they got being carried by you was also donated for? And so on and so forth probably? And you're still ignoring the fact people who donate enough to get all their gear are a tiny minority, so either you're making a huge case of a tiny thing or the issue isn't the coin shop but skill. Your call for "evidence" is irrelevant as well. There's no need to go bother people for actual exact numbers or percentages. If you want to keep believing "the coin shop ruins everything," go ahead - nothing is going to change, and the advice I gave to the other guy is valid as well.

    Regarding your "9k+ server with only vanity mounts and pets," do you mean the one that was revealed to artificially create and sell gold, characters and other things?

    The fact remains that someone having donated doesn't makes them automatically bad, just like someone not donating doesn't makes them good. Bad or bellow mediocre players get carried all the time. This happens all over retail even, where people are paying a monthly fee to be unable to go behind a shield even when told to. Blaming all the woes of grouping on the coin shop is just a cop out, an easy target that can't defend itself and is certain to have people jump on the bandwagon - and it also works as a great deflection for people who are mediocre themselves and unable to compensate for someone being bad in their group.

  5. 3 pages telling me that water is wet but not a single suggestion how to improve this situation.

    To me it seems you guys just arguing to argue.

  6. First of, people saying that Lordaeron lacks population so it's not worth their time there is something that makes me laugh big time. Back in the molten times, all server had a cap of, what, 3000 or 3500 and everyone was so happy with it, and now it passes 4k and it's lack of population?! As far as I know, lack of population is more what Cata server is going through. 300-500 yes that's low, but 4000 is low too? I honestly do not understand those attitudes...

    And for those who think/say/feel/claim that donations are bad for servers, I mean, which world do you live on? Is it somewhere that you get money from the trees? Might be. Icecrown is the most financial source this project has. The majority who donates the largest amounts play on this realm (ragnaros and deathwing counts too, considering the past). Tell me then how can you have 7 decent ongoing realms, on which 2 have a cap of 12k, Icecrown, Lordearon and Outland with 15k.

    No one has to like a coin shop realm, I totally get it. But that's something we all should understand why there is, it's not to ruin the entire server. And you still have an option to avoid this coin shop realm - play on Lordaeron, very simple. In there, you have to get everything ingame.
    And honestly, who cares if you see people running around in BiS gear? Because both ways to gear up ends on the same. Player A can sit in PC 8 hours a day, he raids and PvPs a lot, so he can get BiS in anytime. Player B can barely queue for 3bgs a day because he works 8 hours a day, and he decides to spend money to buy the gear not to run around in full furious gear till the end.

    About the fact you need 6k to be in a raid, that's the "policy" of some players, especially those who wants to lead a group which may clean things fast. But not everyone has over 6k gs you know? There are always groups with lower requirements, or, in worst case scenario, you are totally free to make your own raid.

    People here are making a tempest over nothing, or over things they personally don't like. But that's life. And it's been this way for so long, so why all this drama now?! There has to be something to whine about all the freaking time, isn't it?
    Icecrown is fine the way it is (except on those laggy moments, but that has nothing to do with the main subject of the topic). People like it, I do like it, that may explain why 12k with 1k queue, but no, wait, coin shop ruins everything, god oh my...

    Can we end the drama now please?
    Hop hop get to work.
    Edited: October 31, 2017

  7. Ive been on Molten for 7 years now and its just a fact that the skill level of players fell dramatically since then. All the good players from the times when you couldnt buy chars stopped playing and sold their chars to the new age 12btw players. Too bad that such a good server has such a bad player base.
    At molten times playerbase was as bad as it is today. It is very common for a realm with a fast leveling rate, that bad people do not learn their class until they hit RDF HC requirements. That is mostly not a problem and do not block them form gearing up in RDF while learning nothing. In 99% of all RDF groups a 5k+ GS player carries them anyway.

    I face the same amount of bad players today as i faced back on molten. Only different is, that it is far more easier to get carried through ICC nm today, thanks to a incredible geared player base. Lack of skill is mostly visible at challenging encounter, but than hits like hammer.

    Theses days i did more occulus runs than back on molten. On molten way more player avoided a boss fight where gear is useless.

  8. ITT: People complaining about a business doing business, and a lack of understanding of how to financially run a server.

    @ Obnoxious

    An observation is neither an opinion nor a fact, it is unbiased in intent.. Observe the situation and describe it as it appears, as it happens, as it is. It can be wrong if details are missed, it can only be biased if the intent to be false is present, at which point it is no longer an honest observation.
    What you miss in your "observations" is that there is much more to observe than just your provincial point of view. Looking at Icecrown from the eyes of an HC raider, there are hundreds and hundreds of players that have geared 5-10 characters each the organic way. In my time I've seen more than capable players who might not have any over-geared characters apply to guilds, both progressive and end-game, and geared themselves up naturally. They've grown into more than capable raiders with 5+ near-bis characters, with many of them never donating more than the queue-skipping minimum amount.

    and for the record, Lord didn't shrink in population because of organic gearing requirements, it did because of over-buffed raids.

  9. Because most of the time these unnaturally geared,or character purchasing players that **** up things - you can't trust gear inspect,you can't trust achievments,you can't trust asking questions because it takes 3 seconds to google the answer - these would be a much smaller problem because mostly experienced raiders would have the gear/achievments that shows they're capable of clearing the raids without the shops.
    There is no way to prevent this. Even if the marketplace is shut down, players can still easily trade accounts.

  10. At molten times playerbase was as bad as it is today.
    From my experience it wasnt. At that time you couldnt buy chars so easily like today. Acc sharing wasnt even a thing and inspecting people and their achievements ment something cause you knew that those achievements were actually theirs. Today you have no way of knowing if their KS and LOD achieves mean anything and you get the confirmation when they die in Ladys AoE.

    And i dont agree that today its easyer to get carried. Its true that the average gs of people today is higher but with that you get another problem which is this fake elitism of people who buy 6k chars with achieves and them start *****ing and whining in raid chat about the most petty **** which leads to groups disbanding at record times. Groups now disband at the same pace even if the gs of people is higher its just the attitude of the players that is way worse.

    While the average GS of the server got higher the average age of the players got lower and consequently the skill lvl dropped. And this imo is what makes puging and socializing on here really ****: the 12btws.

  11. From my experience it wasnt. At that time you couldnt buy chars so easily like today.
    On Ragnaros like 75% of all fresh level 80s had no clue how to play their chars. DDs that can´t even pull 1k DPS.
    For me, it is the same if someone buyed a char and can´t play it or rushed to lvl 80 and can´t play it.

    And i dont agree that today its easyer to get carried.
    On my first icc guild run i got an item on nearly every boss. Usually there is more gear dispelled than needed by raid members, makes it very easy for one getting carried to gear up. Back on Molten i had to do progress runs and hadn´t the chance to get a spot in an overgeared icc run.

    Its true that the average gs of people today is higher but with that you get another problem which is this fake elitism of people who buy 6k chars with achieves and them start *****ing and whining in raid chat about the most petty **** which leads to groups disbanding at record times. Groups now disband at the same pace even if the gs of people is higher its just the attitude of the players that is way worse.
    Things that does not happen in a organsied guild, that you should attend if you want to raid. Anyway, Pugs on Ragnaros were barely able to clear the first wing NM, most Pugs end at bugship that days. Even with a raid full of 6k GS buyed chars, you will get at least to prof, i would call that an hugh improvement.

    While the average GS of the server got higher the average age of the players got lower and consequently the skill lvl dropped. And this imo is what makes puging and socializing on here really ****: the 12btws.
    Most people i met are in their late 20th or older. There are only a few kids that try out old expensions and mostly go back to legion in no time. I would say that most people who play wotlk today played it retail, therefor they are at least in their 20th now. This does not make them more mature, thought.
    People who are serios with wotlk, will join a guild to raid and do not attend Pugs. This may explain the different point of view.

  12. At molten times playerbase was as bad as it is today. It is very common for a realm with a fast leveling rate, that bad people do not learn their class until they hit RDF HC requirements. That is mostly not a problem and do not block them form gearing up in RDF while learning nothing. In 99% of all RDF groups a 5k+ GS player carries them anyway.

    I face the same amount of bad players today as i faced back on molten. Only different is, that it is far more easier to get carried through ICC nm today, thanks to a incredible geared player base. Lack of skill is mostly visible at challenging encounter, but than hits like hammer.

    Theses days i did more occulus runs than back on molten. On molten way more player avoided a boss fight where gear is useless.
    To be completely honest, this exact thing is why pre-nerf Cataclysm heroic dungeons (on retail) were such a huge controversy. I'm not speaking about donations, but the sudden increase in difficulty that required people to know how to play the game, as opposed to heroic dungeons in the dungeon finder (patch 3.3+ with all that emblem gear and whatnot) in the previous expansion.

  13. People who are serios with wotlk, will join a guild to raid and do not attend Pugs. This may explain the different point of view.
    Youre right here. My experience is based only on the pug scene of the server since after moltdown i never joined a serious raiding guild (but did raid with them)

    But i think that pugs reflect more the average status of the server than organized guilds. I personally think its a sad state when after all this time on wotlk pugs cant even clear icc on normal. Every "LK run +linked achi" that is advertised is just a scam for people to whisper and in 99.9% of the time RO at 8-10 bosses. Even the players themself tell in raid chat to say LK run cause they dont want to wait. Fake DCs (alt+f4) cause came just for an item/had only 1 hour of time and people leaving after DBS cause the trink didnt drop/they didnt win the token is almost folklore here.

  14. From my experience it wasnt. At that time you couldnt buy chars so easily like today. Acc sharing wasnt even a thing and inspecting people and their achievements ment something cause you knew that those achievements were actually theirs. Today you have no way of knowing if their KS and LOD achieves mean anything and you get the confirmation when they die in Ladys AoE.

    And i dont agree that today its easyer to get carried. Its true that the average gs of people today is higher but with that you get another problem which is this fake elitism of people who buy 6k chars with achieves and them start *****ing and whining in raid chat about the most petty **** which leads to groups disbanding at record times. Groups now disband at the same pace even if the gs of people is higher its just the attitude of the players that is way worse.

    While the average GS of the server got higher the average age of the players got lower and consequently the skill lvl dropped. And this imo is what makes puging and socializing on here really ****: the 12btws.
    How the gear is earned is irrelevant to this specific point in my defending the OP's viewpoint (or dismissing the view of the guy I was quoting originally), I was pointing out that a geared playerbase does affect other players in the way they experience the game and it's not just about pixel envy, of course that leads to discussion of the shop.

    The other point I was making is how gear is traditionally used as an indication of experience and skill, since it is traditionally earned by defeating content (thus if you have a Glorenzelg you have taken part in a successful Lich King kill... It doesn't however take skill or experience to buy Glorenzelg with coins, therefor if a coin shop is introduced to the system you can no longer relate skill/experience with equipped gear..

    This point was never challenged or disputed, despite that it was the main point I was making, and from a completely neutral standpoint, it's not a negative or a positive or an anything, it just is. These are observations, I find it most annoying in this thread that the actual points made in my post were ignored in favour of instead forming a coin shop defense program to instead try to make it a personal dispute effectively about things I didn't even say or suggest.


    And to quote myself in a post I made regarding coin shop before this thread, before Obnoxious decides to rejoin the conversation and talk about how I'm such a biased anti-shop fanatic.

    Originally Posted by bigbazz
    Dragonspine Trophy, Void Reaver loot, SSC loot not including Vashj or Hydross and also excluding all T5 tier tokens. I'm against the shop but they gotta stay in business and this isn't too big of a deal considering Hyjal is already open and T5 has been cleared for months, all of the harder/later T5 boss loot is still not available on the store.
    The fact that I've used the shop myself, or the fact that despite me disliking the shop I still feel it's necessary is something I've not been shy about, having posted about it on many occasions... But it sure was conveniently left out of the conversation here when I get painted as some biased dishonest person with an agenda in my completely rational and fairly neutral post.
    Edited: November 1, 2017

  15. But i think that pugs reflect more the average status of the server than organized guilds.
    I never experienced a good pug raid neither on molten, warmane or even retail. Only exeption were guild raids that fill up spots with randoms. Pugs were ever bad and will ever be. If pugs refelct the average status of the server, it was always bad.

    I personally think its a sad state when after all this time on wotlk pugs cant even clear icc on normal. Every "LK run +linked achi" that is advertised is just a scam for people to whisper and in 99.9% of the time RO at 8-10 bosses. Even the players themself tell in raid chat to say LK run cause they dont want to wait. Fake DCs (alt+f4) cause came just for an item/had only 1 hour of time and people leaving after DBS cause the trink didnt drop/they didnt win the token is almost folklore here.
    Thats what i expect if i would raid with a group that do not feel commited towards this group. 12k Players and a much bigger player base is a nice place to disappear into the mass after alt+f4, simply attend the next pug raid next week.
    There are so many things bad with pugs: raidleaders not matching their own requirements, Item xy reserved, 6k GS players without entch or gems and so on.
    I am not even sure if it is possible to build up a trustworthy pug icc raid on a wotlk realm. To achieve that a pug raid with a well known name and a good steady raidleader is needed, maintaining a blacklist is a must. But at this point there is no big difference to a guild.
    I only saw a good working pug raid on a vanilla server, doing only molten core at a time where most guilds stopped raiding mc but expierenced raider still needed one or two items from it. Good raidleaders, maintaining a blacklist, with a "always clear" reputation and steady raidtimes was the thing.

First 1234 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •