WotLK Arcane to Fire

[kawasakigpz]

For being sure you will have the proper info, track Improved Scorch and diseable "only cast by myself"
Moreover set up a second bar for the lock debuff ("Improved Shadowbolt" - i'm not sure, you need to verify the name)
This way with 2 little bars you will know that if none of the 2 bars are active you will have to set up the scorch debuff

Good luck



Tiny.


@Gnimo : I got you. I think your arguments are right. Even if to my PoV, it's not really consistant to choose a spec with a "all goes wrong" PoV. I don't play these times, but I'm pretty sure that even in PuG people want to improve, and continue to copy their specs on top guild players, so for dunjons maybe FFB is cool. But even in PuG raids I feel if people think like setting them up for a "all goes wrong" situation and a selfish spec, then the level in PuG will decrease even more, we have to remember that if you do the choice of a FFB spec your raid miss 3% crit on one of his player, and theoratically miss a part of his dps by playing a less powerfull spec.
Little by little PuG will be made by FFB mages, BM Hunt, DestruLock, when a proper raid will be more effectiv with a fire or arcane mage, a MM Hunt and a Demono or Hybrid Lock (Affli at low rank is not competitive due to the amount of stat requiert).

Thanks man very helpfull

@gnimo

Yeah Ill transition , Im in the FFB mainly cuz hit problem with pugs. Sometimes is ok, sometimes I miss 3% hit and miss some spells which is annoying. If I go for more hit , Ill lower my dmg.

[Princessochka]

You are, as a matter of fact, just objectively wrong for the most part, and you'd know this if you cared to avail yourself of the wealth of resources available on the matter. But it appears you'd rather relentlessly spread misinformation on the forums than do that.

Good luck for argue with Princessochka xD. I tried before, isn't easy at all, he/she can be a bit stubborn =D

I truely hope we will one day clear the mage's 3.3.5. forums of the idea that FFB is interesting in any other way then have a prettier spell to launch.

Hi
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

FFB is 100% ALWAYS better in world exploration/questing/vanilla or bk (hc) dungeons/world or bg pvp in pve spec/actual random 80lvl dungeons.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever you say about raiding (theoretically you are right, but practically quite not) - this is the part you can't ignore because it's an absolute truth (highlighted quote above). So stop saying about spreading false infromation. Nor me, nor Gnimo never said "FFB>TTW", we both said "ttw is best spec, but there are situations where ffb could be better, this or another way".

You guys build your point only around high end raiding where everyone knows and does everything needed, while on "just started to play" skill level everything is different. How about hunters and ROGUES not using md/tots? Retri paladin that is using yellow judgement and doesn't know about existense of salvation or any another his spell? 2 shamans and no bl? BALANCE DRUID THAT DOESN'T USE FAERIE FIRE? Just go join some low 10nm pug raids and you will expirience a whole new world!

FFB is modest and comfortable build to play with. 3% less hit, good burst, better aoe damage, better agro and mana management, independence from others. And on "gearing" / "fixing gear+stats setup" phase it "MAY" give better results than TTW (i never said it precisely "WOULD"). For example if i had 11-12% of hit and no another item to get 14% - i'd rather stay ffb and stack crit instead of gemming lots of hit or going without hit cap.

And yea, i don't want another holywar, and i'm not going to link or claim anything (i'm too lazy) - but i simply know that until i'm done with 10mens (get fully optimized 264 gears) i would better stay arcane or crit stacking ffb, believe me or not.

[TinyToys]

Hi Princess

I'm a bit stubborn to and I shouldn't have put oil on fire on this debat.

I got your point and he seem right. I have not realize since that long, that the burst and the rng-relation of the FFB make her a more permissive spec for new players, less experimenced. That spec actually give more room for mistakes with less impact on the dps output.

So yes for a less experienced player it can be a solution.

But, as you say I (and other ppl who argue in the same way as me) am concern about the high end content. And the fact of being permissive on mistakes and pulling people in the FFB direction have really bad consequences on the high end content. Indeed I saw a lot of people staying as FFB for the high end content, with the justification "I always did more dps as FFB then in TTW", these people are now experienced, but they continue to do mistakes and need to play FFB in order to fullfill these mistakes with a high-damages value burst phase. And these people who play FFB at high end, are a pain in the *** of player (as me and others) who have train themself to don't make mistakes and play correctly TTW, in order to be optimize and reach the limits of their class-dps. They don't provide the Magic Focus, and made lose 3% crit to 2 players of the raid....

This is the reason why I'll never promote the FFB spec, if a player stay in this spec he will be a bit toxic for his mates mages sooner or later, by not providing the crit he must and by not dealing the damages he should.

You got my point ? I hope we can stop here the little bit of animosity between us, I truely have the feeling you are a nice and smart person =)


See u



Tiny.


PS: Maybe promoting the TTW will made people improve in general. I personnaly got some privates forum messages of player who start TTW and don't reach the good result we speak about. They usually just come and tell me they have issues to reach good numbers as TTW (lower/mid geared) we speak a bit and fix their mistakes. Usually after this phase of selfquestionning, they improve a lot in their gameplay and dps output. I hope they will be sooner or later raiders with high value. And I'm pretty sure it's better to helping people to improve in the most competitive spec instead of giving them a shortcut as FFB which will not help them to fix mistakes.

[DarkenedHue]

I got your point and he seem right. I have not realize since that long, that the burst

Does it, though. You're comparing 20% haste vs 13% more straight up Pyro damage, slightly better nuke damage, and a shorter nuke time comparable to 5% haste (Fireball has a lower baseline cast speed). Rawr seems to suggest FFB would barely hold a lead if the fight was only 20 seconds long. Past that, TTW would only need 3 or 4 seconds to catch up and then leave FFB far behind.

And the fact of being permissive on mistakes and pulling people in the FFB direction have really bad consequences on the high end content.

I'm not seeing how, DPS-wise, FFB is more forgiving than TTW. They are essentially the exact same rotations, just with a different filler nuke. If anything, I'd suggest TTW would be more beneficial to a newbie because of its Magic Absorption talent.

[TinyToys]

Does it, though. You're comparing 20% haste vs 13% more straight up Pyro damage, slightly better nuke damage, and a shorter nuke time comparable to 5% haste (Fireball has a lower baseline cast speed). Rawr seems to suggest FFB would barely hold a lead if the fight was only 20 seconds long. Past that, TTW would only need 3 or 4 seconds to catch up and then leave FFB far behind.



I'm not seeing how, DPS-wise, FFB is more forgiving than TTW. They are essentially the exact same rotations, just with a different filler nuke. If anything, I'd suggest TTW would be more beneficial to a newbie because of its Magic Absorption talent.

Yeah true, if you give advice to a Fire mage, he should be able to apply them to TTW and FFB without any difference, and make a better capitalization of these advice in TTW.

But one point was highlighted to me by going in the same debat each time again and again (FFB vs TTW for newly mage players). The fact that some people (even people with experience on the mage field) continue to argue in favor of FFB for low people. I didn't got why, same as you, I have a really hard time to find positiv points to chose FFB and not TTW. But something come to me like 1-2 mounths ago. Low experienced-players, seems more confident as FFB mage (not all of them but a part). Why ? that was the question I cannot answer before. But I think I got a beginning of an answer. Playing mage, as you know, is about concentration, never loosing time, always stay focus, even at top lvl mage competition on the recount the mage who win is the one who have the highest activity time, the more FB/Pyro delivered and the maximum uptime on the LB. I started on this assumption, and I transposed that point to lower players. And I may finnally have find why unexperienced-players can be more effective with FFB. If a low-player find a way to be properly focus on what he his doing during his icy veins, he will have a huge gain out of it, meanwhile to pull out the complete dps capacity of the TTW, the same player will have to stay focus a lot more time. Indeed, when the FFB is highly related on is rng and burst phase, the sustained dps of the TTW overpowered FFB a lot. But for a newbie, it can be hard to keep his concentration at the lvl requiert by the TTW to get over the FFB burst, and this during enough time.

Idk if you got my point, but as I said before, in my opinion, advicing someone to play FFB is a mistake, and even if he feel more confortable with it, it will lead him on a bad way for the high end experience, because to my mind someone can perform better as FFB then as TTW, but it is only due to a missplay did by not being enough focus during the entiere encounter.

So please do not make me say what I didn't =)

TTW will always outperform FFB. But yet I can understand why some people give credit to the FFB spec (I think, it's because they don't play in a good state of concentration during the whole fight). And I understand either why experienced mages like us have issues to understand this last point, it's mainly because we are playing seriously our mage in order to maximize him every time. And finnaly, I am not ok with promoting FFB, because a newbie should prefer have a longer learning phase in order to be able to go higher with his performances (later). For what I know any player who take the time to learn and ask other experienced players, can be a high level mage. Some friends of mine tell me every time : "mage is the easier class to play" and to that I answer "Yes, look at me I'm a ****ing noob on this game, OTP mage since 2k11, and I can pull the same (and even better) amount of damage then any (fire) mage I meet, but anyone who can manage to be more focus then me can beat me on any boss he want". To conclude this little "out of subject" Mage is about focusing, staying concentrate. Since not a lot of time, I think that FFB is a bit more permissive on this point then TTW, this is why I can yet be ok with the fact some people can see advantages in being FFB mage which I cannot see myself.

Was a long paragraph ^^, forgive my english and I hope you got my points,



Regards



Tiny.


Edit : About Magic Absorption. I'm ok with you it can really help newbies =). Moreover to my mind the Magic Absorption, is one of the ultimates points to bring in the spec in order to overpowered mages which have a different spec, at the very highest level of playing mage (in a high raiding guilds).

[DarkenedHue]

And I may finnally have find why unexperienced-players can be more effective with FFB. If a low-player find a way to be properly focus on what he his doing during his icy veins, he will have a huge gain out of it, meanwhile to pull out the complete dps capacity of the TTW, the same player will have to stay focus a lot more time. Indeed, when the FFB is highly related on is rng and burst phase, the sustained dps of the TTW overpowered FFB a lot.

It seems you're operating under the assumption that a newbie would instinctively know to pay more attention to his DPS during his burst phase, than during the rest of his rotation. I don't think that is necessarily true, but even if it we assumed it was, TTW would still ultimately pull ahead by virtue of its sheer DPS superiority. If someone half-assed the rotation of TTW, they'd still be well above another person who half-assed the non-burst phase of FFB the same way. Even if someone played poorly the whole fight after the initial 20 seconds, they would, in all likelihood, still do much better as TTW than as FFB by on account of TTW's intrinsic raw numbers advantage alone.

The other point that really needs to be stressed is that FFB's supposed burst superiority is almost non-existent. 20 seconds of Icy Veins barely bridges the inherent gap between FFB and TTW. You might burst a small amount more, but the TTW mage would be hot on your heels right behind you the whole time. Less than 5 seconds after your IV ends, the TTW mage would take the lead, for you to never regain it. It's a huge stretch to say FFB bursts a significant amount more.

In general, I think the claim that FFB is more suited to new players could not be more wrong unless you specified some kind of context where FFB is actually indisputably better. For instance, the sustained AoE. Maybe a new player might go through RDFs a lot and find himself spamming Blizzard relentlessly. And maybe the RDFs he runs happen to include very awfully specced tanks that don't pick up attack speed slows. In that context, it could be more acceptable to say FFB might be more suited to a fresh 90 who happens to be farming RDFs a lot. But once a player graduates from that initial RDF-gearing phase and steps into the raiding scene in earnest, FFB quite surely takes a backseat to TTW, unless of course the fight(s) happen to play to FFB's strengths somehow (in practice, they'd want to be Arcane over TTW at that gear level, but the discussion is TTW vs FFB).

To sum up what I think it comes down to, FFB's main advantages are:
- More mana-efficient when executing single target DPS
- Somewhat better sustained AoE DPS due to stronger Blizzard crits
- The ability to use 2x Ice Blocks close to each other if specced into Cold Snap

Unless one or more of these apply to your situation, you're better off defaulting to TTW or Arcane. The burst advantage of FFB is next to negligible, and if your gear is at the point where you're terribly pressed for Hit, you should probably be Arcane. Even TTW with a 2% miss chance will out-DPS FFB, so lacking Hit is not a compelling enough reason on its own to be FFB.

[toniplavna]

Is the Incineration debuff one where we should stop casting scorch?

[TinyToys]

Is the Incineration debuff one where we should stop casting scorch?

What do you mean by incineration ?

All I got are : Incineration
or : Incinerate

The first is a Talent from mage fire build, not a debuff, so he don't apply to the whole raid and he can be cumulate with the Improved Scorch debuff gived by this talent Improved Scorch

The second is a warlock spell which have no link with the critical strike improvement.

If you look for spell/debuff which remplace the Improved Scorch debuff take a look if another raider have one of these talents in is template and if he use a lot the related spell. Improved ShadowBolt and/or Winter's Chill

Usually Mages as Fire, and Frost can put this debuff up. Warlock class can too first as a Demonologist (but they stop during their burst phase under the 35% life of the boss when they start filling their rotation with Soul Fires.) and second as Affliction (they are stop refreshing it under the 25% life of the boss when they start filling their rotation with Soul Fires.). At the moment Warlocks don't refresh the debuff you or any other mage have to do it (usually in well prepared guild/raids, the weaker dps sacrify it self (under 35/25%) for doing it whenever it is a mage or a warlock but remain that burst phase of warlock at this moment is pretty huge so make sure you don't make them loose it by asking them to refresh the debuff by launching a shadowbolt.

I hope it was useful !

See u,



Tiny.

PS: you can find most the answer of your questions by digging this website =) (https://sites.google.com/site/pvemag...ation-gameplay)

[toniplavna]

Yeah I want to know the name of the warlock debuff so that I dont need to cast scorch. I ll put it to NeedtoKnow addon so I can track it. So I found that debuff name is Shadow Mastery,