1. Arcane to Fire

    When is the best time to switch from arcane to ttw fire?

  2. Was just talking to guild about this and have to be hit cap, or they suggested when you are 25 man ready. I'd google some guides, and check warmane guides.

  3. When you decide its time for you to play a real man's spec.

  4. Basically when you can reach the soft hit cap and have enough crit to be somewhat consistent with Hotstreaks.

    •The TTW Fire (soft) hit cap is 14%, or 368 hit rating.
    •You would need at least ~50% self-buffed crit. 47% if you consider the 3% from Focus Magic.

    The thing is that there is no set-in-stone crit benchmark, because of how RNG works. You could get lucky and have great results with 50% self-buffed, but you can also get horribly unlucky and barely get any hotstreaks. The inconsistency evens out as you get more crit, but it's still there, even at BiS. It's just how the spec works.
    This is why I would personally recommend 50% crit as a bare minimum.

  5. If you are freshmade mage with low gears, i'll suggest to switch to FFB build (since you need to join 10 man raids) once u get 11% hit (won't be problem with lady bracers and tailoring boots), 40%+ crit (means if crit is low - it's best to gem yourself with 20 crit in yellows, 12sp 10 crit in reds) and 2t10.

  6. If you are freshmade mage with low gears, i'll suggest to switch to FFB build (since you need to join 10 man raids) once u get 11% hit (won't be problem with lady bracers and tailoring boots), 40%+ crit (means if crit is low - it's best to gem yourself with 20 crit in yellows, 12sp 10 crit in reds) and 2t10.
    I'm not sure about that dude, FFB is way more related on the crit then TTWFire. The few hit you wiss will come easely with the items you speak about. 14% hit isn't really hard to reach espacially at intermédiate gear as ToC and Icc 10. Plus the fact that Focus magic will give you 3% extra crit



    If I can give you an advice follow the Sky's comment, it's a good start and try to have 2T10 bonus before swaping on a fire spec.


    But clearly don't be afraid to stay as arcane mage before reaching the requierd statistics, It overpowered the FFB spec or the Fire spec without stats easely. If you don't properly dps as arcane, made an in-depth job on your placement and your movements, respect more the Always Be Casting rule



    Tiny.

    PS: Ask for more info.
    Edited: November 13, 2017

  7. If you are freshmade mage with low gears, i'll suggest to switch to FFB build (since you need to join 10 man raids) once u get 11% hit (won't be problem with lady bracers and tailoring boots), 40%+ crit (means if crit is low - it's best to gem yourself with 20 crit in yellows, 12sp 10 crit in reds) and 2t10.
    If you're a fresh mage, FFB should be even less attractive to you.
    •Frostfire Bolt has a higher cast time than Fireball, meaning you need more haste (more so than a TTW Fire mage).
    •Frostfire Bolt has a higher crit modifier than Fireball, but non-crits hit for less. This means you rely even more on crit to do well as a FFB mage.

    Both of these stats are in shortage when you're a fresh mage, so I wouldn't opt for the FFB spec as a fresh 80.

    You could argue that it needs less hit than TTW Fire to work and that's true, but Arcane needs even less hit to work, and it will perform better.

    The only valid point that can be made in favor of FFB mage is "I like this spec, abd the spell looks pretty". If this is the case then by all means one should play FFB mage (I would agree with you because Frostfire Bolt is actually gorgeous ^^). However, objectively speaking, it's not the most competitive spec, and can even be considered irrelevant for serious raiding.
    Edited: November 12, 2017

  8. If you're a fresh mage, FFB should be even less attractive to you.
    •Frostfire Bolt has a higher cast time than Fireball, meaning you need more haste (more so than a TTW Fire mage).
    •Frostfire Bolt has a higher crit modifier than Fireball, but non-crits hit for less. This means you rely even more on crit to do well as a FFB mage.

    Both of these stats are in shortage when you're a fresh mage, so I wouldn't opt for the FFB spec as a fresh 80.

    You could argue that it needs less hit than TTW Fire to work and that's true, but Arcane needs even less hit to work, and it will perform better.

    The only valid point that can be made in favor of FFB mage is "I like this spec, abd the spell looks pretty". If this is the case then by all means one should play FFB mage (I would agree with you because Frostfire Bolt is actually gorgeous ^^). However, objectively speaking, it's not the most competitive spec, and can even be considered irrelevant for serious raiding.
    Consulted 3 good players gearing their mage twinks, all of them were testing both specs in raids, all of them said that on low gears (5-5.8 i think) FFB showed itself much better until they get better gear and proper gear setup (stats). Another thing to mention is that TTW build is ONLY for 25m raids. In good 10m setup u don't even need a mage, esspecialy low one. Also in 10m you won't get all you want for casters setup. FFB build doesn't depend on setup that much as TTW, and u won't c such huge drops in dps (even better option could be just to go arcane).

    Also i should say, that fapping on one spec isn't "objective", because FFB does just 1.5-2k less dps in bis gears in 25m. It has its uses.

  9. 5.5 gs or higher is the time to switch I'd say. FFB is rather meh spec regardless because it doesn't give focus magic.

  10. Consulted 3 good players gearing their mage twinks, all of them were testing both specs in raids, all of them said that on low gears (5-5.8 i think) FFB showed itself much better until they get better gear and proper gear setup (stats). Another thing to mention is that TTW build is ONLY for 25m raids. In good 10m setup u don't even need a mage, esspecialy low one. Also in 10m you won't get all you want for casters setup. FFB build doesn't depend on setup that much as TTW, and u won't c such huge drops in dps (even better option could be just to go arcane).

    Also i should say, that fapping on one spec isn't "objective", because FFB does just 1.5-2k less dps in bis gears in 25m. It has its uses.
    Dude we are not subjectif on that topic, we gived our reasons way we advice playing TTW and not FFB. At the opposite you didn't.
    You tell us, I have some friends who tell me that .... . And you add, TTW requiert a better raid setup then FFB.
    But why dude ? As we said before, TTW is less dependent of the crit so if you have less crit crit debuff in your raid then you will have more issues as TTW.
    When you are in a R10 as TTW you may most of time miss your 3 additionnal % of crit, but you will still have 3% more then the FFB.
    If you think that you will not have 3% hit in the raid 10, this way you will probabily raid in a r10 without any caster optimisation, so that's not a objective point of view.

    So please give us tangibles arguments about your point of view and then we will maybe update our point of view

  11. Consulted 3 good players gearing their mage twinks, all of them were testing both specs in raids, all of them said that on low gears (5-5.8 i think) FFB showed itself much better until they get better gear and proper gear setup (stats).
    This is purely anecdotal evidence, and I have nothing against you or your friends. If you want to properly determine the performance of a spec, that requires a lot of testing, especially so on classes that revolve around RNG like mages do. As I mentioned in my first post here, you could get lucky with crits and your dps will be amazing. You also have to keep as many factors constant as you can, for example raid composition and raid dps, because those influence your results a lot.
    Furthermore, if their lower-geared twinks did not meet the hit cap for TTW, or did not try arcane in comparison as well, it's fairly easy to reach the 'conclusion' they have.

    Another thing to mention is that TTW build is ONLY for 25m raids. In good 10m setup u don't even need a mage, esspecialy low one. Also in 10m you won't get all you want for casters setup. FFB build doesn't depend on setup that much as TTW, and u won't c such huge drops in dps (even better option could be just to go arcane).
    This argument seems really contradictory to me. If TTW is a 25m spec and in 10m you don't even need a mage, then what is the problem here?
    Anyway, it's true that in 10 man you won't always get all the buffs you want. That applies to everyone, and it still doesn't push FFB over the edge.

    Also i should say, that fapping on one spec isn't "objective"
    I'm sorry if I seem aggressive to you, but I'm not.

    Please keep in mind the author of this post is asking for the time to switch from Arcane to TTW Fire. It only makes sense that I'd refer to TTW Fire, rather than introduce a less-competitive alternative.

    You're basing your arguments on "I was told by good players", and then claim I'm not being objective?
    Anywho, my arguments are based on talent and spell tooltips, as well as formulas behind them. Those are facts, not opinions. I'll be happy to provide links, should you want to.

    TTW is simply superior. FFB used to be a thing in this server when Torment of the Weak wasn't properly working, and that was a long time ago.

    FFB does just 1.5-2k less dps in bis gears in 25m. It has its uses.
    What exactly are its uses that outweigh the underpeformance in dps? More damage from Blizzard? Slowing mobs?
    All mage specs have access to rank1 frostbolts, frost nova and cone of cold.

    Please keep in mind that mages are relied upon to pump out huge numbers, so why would you spec something that inhibits your own potential?

    That said, I'm not against people playing FFB mage. If you like it, by all means go for it. The OP however, isn't interested in that.
    Edited: November 17, 2017

  12. Oke, listen guys, i'm not going to link this and that, simply because things get bugged/fixed/bugged again all the time and there is no point. All i'm telling you is from my own experience. FFB has more pyro procs. And i know for sure that TTW is a spec for 25m raids. For world exploring/dungeons/rdfs/10m - FFB or Arcane are better. If you insist that question was only about TTW and there is no point in adding anything about alternatives -

    When is the best time to switch from arcane to ttw fire?
    Best time is when you are going in 25man raid. After that switch back.
    (this sounds so stupid, HAHA)
    Edited: November 17, 2017

  13. The question was about arcane -> ttw switch. Defending FFB as a spec is much like arguing for the use of protection warriors in a raid. It is in the vast majority of cases (99% of cases) not the best choice. The only real edge I can think of that FFB may have, but doesn't necessarily have, is a FFB CS spec being able to Ice Block 2x Unchained magics on Sindragosa.

  14. The question was about arcane -> ttw switch. Defending FFB as a spec is much like arguing for the use of protection warriors in a raid. It is in the vast majority of cases (99% of cases) not the best choice. The only real edge I can think of that FFB may have, but doesn't necessarily have, is a FFB CS spec being able to Ice Block 2x Unchained magics on Sindragosa.
    Oh, cmon Rifo, Et tu, Brute? =(

    http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary
    This guy was trying to play TTW with ****ty gears and gems (he still didn't fix all of them lol). I recomended him to switch into FFB spec, he said it's better now.

    http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/profile
    This guy had better results with FFB even in 25m raids on ~6k gs mage (he was playing arcane previously). This guy is very serious when it comes to wow, he tested things alot, and he is pro on his balance druid so i can trust him. He changed to TTW recently after fixing some gears.

    Like, guys, cmon, if all you know is 25hc raiding with some top guild - don't tell me that there is just 1 best spec and thats all. I'm playing only mage for like 3 years ( http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/profile ), when i started to play i sucked and learned to play from Rifo and later from Seethatburst ( http://armory.warmane.com/character/...ecrown/summary (he is probably the best mage on server)). I was raiding with pugs, progressive guilds, top guilds, pugs again and tryed lots of things (and still trying). And i know for sure, that there are LOTS of situations when TTW spec isn't the best one. It is all about many many different things, from gears, knowledge, playstyle, raid setups to having guild or pugging. Most newbies don't have possibilities to go farm icc hc right away with some guild, they pug, and they need different solutions.

    From my expirience Arcane is best on really low unoptimized gears, because no pyro procs = no damage. After fixing gears and gems, having decent crit and lets say 2t10 - all fire specs (ttw, lb ffb, cs ffb) start to outdps arcane. But cs ffb is actually hard to play and ttw spec demands both gear setup with proper stats and raid setup. There is no way that i'll say that later on ttw isn't the best - it is. In 25m raids it is beast. Yet i must say again, that on gearing stage (when you fix your gears to haste+crit stats, when you are raiding 10m raids alot) - you may find ffb doing better job.

    When i saw tm message - i thought of some 4k-5.5k mage, that thinks that fire>arcane, and he knows that all people are playing ttw and it's the best. So thats why i offered third transitional option with trying ffb.

    If you are freshmade mage with low gears, i'll suggest to switch to FFB build.
    Edited: November 17, 2017

  15. Oke, listen guys, i'm not going to link this and that, simply because things get bugged/fixed/bugged again all the time and there is no point. All i'm telling you is from my own experience. FFB has more pyro procs. And i know for sure that TTW is a spec for 25m raids. For world exploring/dungeons/rdfs/10m - FFB or Arcane are better. If you insist that question was only about TTW and there is no point in adding anything about alternatives -


    Best time is when you are going in 25man raid. After that switch back.
    (this sounds so stupid, HAHA)
    Nice to speak with you Jesus Christ, such place for debat and argumentation hahaha.

    I don't want to be mean but if you convice anybody with a speech like that it's sad.

    As we told you no difference between TTW and FFB in the fact of raid 10men, one loss 3 hit and the other 3 crit (assuming nobody get any raid buff)

    FFB as more proc pyro. http://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/mage.php Let me know where from in the mage FFB built you get that more crit chances

    About bugs: we get since approximatly 4 years the most important debug which shuted down the FFB spec (TTW affected by attack slowing) so this is not any sort of bug which come and go....

    For the part "i'm telling you from my own experience", idk how much you have but to my point of view you didn't made enough experience on TTW, because we are here 2 experienced mages argue with you without getting any sign of an open mind on your side.

    You think because we play endgame TLK we walked not through the gearing stages and exploring world things ?

    So I'll give you an idea of my own experience and I'm sure sky have as much experience as me if it's not more. I play TLK since 2011. I up and geared 7 mages during this time on at least 4 differents private servers. I have lvled up as Frost as Arcane and as Fire, I have played early 80 as Arcane as FFB as TTW and even as frost PVE. And I have played end game TLK as TTW as FFB (when it was bugged) and a bit as Arcane.
    And overall that my personnal experience not things told by other ppl.

    But I don't established my point of view only on my experience, I have meet a lot of people (mages) and debated with them (true debats not non argumentary ones). Moreover we all did maths, sometime ppls less then the others but all time when the arguments are correctly put on the table, we all agreed on one way of thinking. Because this is a game, a program, all things are written no randomness here, so no places for intuitions. You can have an intuition, but if you cannot bring solid arguments to confirm it you cannot give real credit to this intuition, because in program/game all things can be proved.

    Sorry for ppl which have to read that (because this is not the subject), but that type of behavior really goes on my nerves.


    Tiny.
    Edited: November 17, 2017

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