Hey guys,
For a TTW mage witch of this 3 setup would be the most optimal (self bufed):
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Member
Mage hast/crit
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Wind of Northrend
1 has the best balance out of the 3 options
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Member
I'd go for # 2 because it has more hit rating.
Both Haste or Crit are useless if you're not even able to hit the enemy.
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He is only 28 hit away from cap in setup #1.
Go for the first one, and either gem for hit, or toy around with other gear slots to get it (367 hit).
I'd sacrifice a little bit of haste for it personally, you're not that close to the point where you can fit 3 Fireballs in your 2p bonus anyway.
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Which Race are you ?
If you are Ally go for the first one, but it's still not ideal, you should fine a way to put your hit at 341 or higher, from the gear you are the best option is to used veiled ametrine to remplace one of your orange gem. That's if you are a purist overwise stay like this (in my opinion, being 2 points under the hit cap have more value then being 8 above).
If you are in the Horde go for the first one and remplace 3 orange gems by veiled ametrines in order to be higher then 368 hit points.
What the issues of the 2d configuration and of the 3d :
#2 : for raiding (optimal raid with a boomie or a shadow priest) you should have 341 hit points in alliance (because of the 1% gived by dreinei) and 368 in Horde, all points above are lost statistical points you can invest in another place. You have in the comp 2# 3102 spell power, 50.68% crit and 612 haste; the comp 1# give you 3106 spell power, 48.03% crit and 810 haste, so it's a trade of 2.65% crit for 4 spell power and 6,04% haste, the amount of crit gain for the haste lost don't worth it to my mind. (the huge difference of statistics gained is due to the amount of useless hit points of the comp #2)
#3 : This comp is more viable then the 2# but the 45,18% crit is a bit low for playing TTW spec. But orienting your TTW around haste is a way of thinking, some mages have and actually give good results, but be sure you will made you crit rate grow as soon as you can. Don't go lower then that on the crit !
I hope it may help you !
See u
Tiny.Edited: January 20, 2018
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The 3rd setup is the closest to BiS gear. #1 and #2 have more crit than my BiS mage in dalaran. Although, as Sky mentioned, you won't benefit as much of the haste as you will of the additional crit. So take #1 for now.
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Thx for reply,
am on A2 side so i dont have realy a Hit rating probleme,
* for the trinkets is [Dislodged Foreign Object] nm more optimal than the [Muradin's Spyglass] hc in term of SP gaine
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Member
you better take spyglass if you want to play ttw, dfo is for arcane and it is good only because of haste
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Some Theory :
DFO effect 20 sec, Icd 45 sec since the beginning of the effet
So let's take a 45 sec time base
Spamming 2sec cast during 45 sec mean :
During the 1st 45s of the encounter :
Spell Power from DFO : 105+105*2+105*3 ..... + 105*9 + 105*10 = 105*(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10) = 105*55 = 5775 sp
Spell Power from Muradin's : 20 first secondes : 20+20*2+20*3+ .... +20*10 = 1100 sp ; and during the 25 remaining sec : 200*(25/2) = 2500 sp
So during the 1st 45s of the encounter : DFO offer 5775 sp and Muradin 3600 sp
After the 1st 45 secondes : DFO still offer 5775 sp but the Muradin now offer 200*(45/2) = 4500 sp
So in term of sp DFO even nm always overpowered the Muradin's Spyglass
Moreover DFO offer a great combo with the Combustion of the TTW Fire spec !
See u
Tiny.
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Member
That's a strange way of calculating the value of both trinkets. DFO is for sure the better choice from a bursting perspective. But the comparison is not as clear as you make it out to be. Especially as your way completely ignores any Pyro, LB, Scorch, Fire Blast, etc. casts.
Muradin's becomes a good and really desirable trinket once it's fully stacked.
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Yes it's a rough way of calculating the value. The objectiv is to give an idea. Moreover you can totally ignore Scorch and Fireblast they don't enter in the cycle of a mage who are raiding.
So I ignore the Pyro and LB but I can included it for that I need to have a reference as crit chance, and that a new hypothesis, I'm not sure it's any gain in the purpose to give a overview to ad another hypothesis.
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About "Muradin's becomes a good and really desirable trinket once it's fully stacked." Ok, but it will not always be, don't counting the 15-20sec where it will no be se case will be overrating the trinket.
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That bored me, but let's do the maths integrating (roughly) the pyro and LB.
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In the 45s base time :
LB have the higher priority in TTWFire so we can assume : 45/12 = 3.75 LB per 45s
Lets assume a 1.25 gcd, which is approximatly the case for a 2s casting time on FB
Integrating LB to the rotation will cost 3.75*1.25 = 4.69sec
And 2 LB will be cast during the first 20 sec.
LB first made damages after 3sec.
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Let's assume that the player have 48%crit selfbuff, means approximatly 65% crit full raid buff.
He will have 65%*65% chance to have a pyro after a fireball means 42%
Let's approximate the number of pyro during 45 sec :
FB cast time 2 sec but 4.69sec used for LB : (45-4.69)/2 = 20.155
On 20 FB you will have 0.42*20 pyro means 8.4 pyro cost 8.4*1.25 = 10.5 sec.
45 + 10.5 > 45
Lets made a bit of dichotomy.
Try with 15 FB means 6.3 pyro
15 FB cost : 30 sec ; 6.3 pyro cost : 7.88 ; LB cost 4.69 ; Total = 44.18 sec
Seems good lets assume 16 FB, 6.3 pyro and 3.75 LB.
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Spell power modifiers :
FB : 115 % (empowered power included)
Pyroblast : 130 % (")
LB : 122.86 %
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Lets do the case of the 45 first sec of the encounter.
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DFO :
The DFO is going 20 sec out of 45 means 44.44% uptime
but the easier way is to considere the DFO as 10 different buffs 2 seconds each.
So each stack of DFO is remaining 2sec out of 45 means 4.44% uptime
There are the value of the buff : 105 210 315 420 525 630 735 840 945 1050
SP given by DFO to FB :
105*115%*16*4.44% = 85.78
+
210*115%*16*4.44% = 171.56
+
315*115%*16*4.44% = 257.34
+
420*115%*16*4.44% = 343.12
+
525*115%*16*4.44% = 428.90
+
630*115%*16*4.44% = 514.68
+
735*115%*16*4.44% = ...
+
840*115%*16*4.44% = ...
+
945*115%*16*4.44% = ...
+
1050*115%*16*4.44% = ...
= 55*85.78 = 4717.9
SP given by DFO to Pyro :
105*130%*6.3*4.44% = 38.18
+
....
= 55*38.18 = 2100
SP given by DFO to LB :
105*122.86%*3.75*4.44% = 21.48
+
....
= 55*21.48 = 1181.34
So in 45sec the DFO give a total amount of 4717.9 + 2100 + 1181.34 = 7999.24 SP
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Muradin :
The first seconds are a bit harder to estimate because every damage spell trigger him
But let's do a simulation. assuming no flying time
2s
First hit FB ; LB cast ; 42% chance have pyro || Buff up to 1
1.25s
1.75s
1st hit LB || buff up to 2
0.25s
2d hit FB ; 84% chance have pyro || Buff up to 3
2s
3rd hit FB ; 1st Pyro || Buff up to 5
0.75s
2d hit LB || Buff up to 6
0.75s
start casting the next FB
2s
4th hit FB ; 69% chance have pyro || Buff up to 7
0.25s
3 hit LB || Buff up to 8
0.75s
1st hit DoT Pyro || Buff up to 9
1s
5th hit FB ; 2d Pyro || Buff up to 10
Lets count the time spend to bring up the buff to 10 :
2s + 1.25s + 1.75s + 0.25s + 2s + 0.25s + 0.75s + 1s = 9.25 s
Lets same as DFO considere each buff as an individual one
Lets calculate the uptime of each of them
For the first 9 we'll take and average uptime because we don't know when the pyro actually proc.
there are the different buffs : 20 40 60 80 100 120 140 160 180 200
The 200 sp buff remain 45 - 9,25 = 35.75 sec means an uptime of 79.44%
The other remain 9.25/9 = 1.03 sec means an uptime of 2.28%
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Finnaly :
SP given by Muradin to FB :
20*115%*16*2.28% = 8.39
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40*115%*16*2.28% = 16.78
+
....
+
180*115%*16*2.28% = 75.51
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200*115%*16*79.44% = 2923.39
= 45*8.39 + 2923.39 = 3300.94
SP given by Muradin to Pyro :
20*130%*6.3*2.28% = 3.73
+
....
+
200*130%*6.3*79.44% = 1301.23
= 45*3.73 + 1301.23 = 1469.08
SP given by Muradin to LB :
20*122.86%*3.75*2.28% = 2.10
+
....
+
200*122.86%*3.75*79.44% = 732.00
= 45*2.10 + 732.00 = 826.50
So in the 45 first seconds the Muradin give a total amount of 3300.94 + 1469.08 + 826.50 = 5596.52 SP
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The calcul for the muradin after the 45 first seconds is easy (200sp buff uptime = 100%):
SP given by Muradin to FB :
200*115%*16 = 3680
SP given by Muradin to Pyro :
200*130%*6.3 = 1638
SP given by Muradin to LB :
200*122.86%*3.75 = 921.45
So after the 45 first seconds the Muradin give a total amount of 3680 + 1638 + 921.45 = 6239.45 SP
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Let compare :
In the first 45 sec :
DFO give an avarage of 7999.24 SP when the Muradin only give 5596.52 SP
And after the 45 first secondes the DFO still give 7999.24 SP when the Muradin ony jump to 6239.45 SP
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If you have issues with how i have represent the thing in order to have an approximativ overview of both buffs do not hesitate to tell me but please be precise man make sure you read all I wrote above.
Gratz for them which had the courage of reading this !
See u
Tiny.
PS : please forgive my orthography mistakes.
PS : For Bensten and all people who have issues with rough calculating take a look at these ratios :
On my first post I got these results
1st 45s : DFO : 5775 sp | Muradin : 3600 sp | ratio : 0.62
After : DFO : 5775 sp | Muradin : 4500 sp | ratio : 0.78
On my 2d post :
1st 45s : DFO : 7999.24 sp | Muradin : 5596.52 sp | ratio : 0.70
After : DFO : 7999.24 sp | Muradin : 6239.45 sp | ratio : 0.78
In conclusion you can see that the approximation was really made on in how much time the muradin buff will grow up but for the rest results are the same in terms of proportion.
So even if their was rough, the first maths I gived a good overview of the reality, they was enough to compare the 2 trinkets even if the numbers are not the sames, the proportions was respected.
BUT rough way cost me 10 minutes of my life when precise one cost me over then 1h30. It's called efficienty when it comes to such a huge difference ! ^^Edited: January 21, 2018
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Well, I never questioned the spellpower advantage in favor of DFO on paper. But your calculations completely ignore the fact that DFO has to proc - and it has a terrible proc chance. You don't get this proc every 45sec. Especially on a class that isn't casting as frequently as all the other casters.
DFO (264) averages to 254 SP on a 100% proc chance. In reality it ranges in the area of 210-230 SP and this is still assuming you can make full use of the proc. On encounters with forced downtimes it easily falls behind Muradin's (and keeping Muradin's stacks up is almost effortless, any LB tick will do the job).
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haste = arcane ; crit = fire, more cirts more % for pyro, it is rng but it is what it is, if you want dfo on mage go as arcane
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Member
At the beginning of a fight DFO is long to proc, it's true (he have a proc rate around 10%), so due to the same simulation I bring to you above at a begining of an encounter he can neeed 9.25 to proc, which can seems huge.
But that fact is not true during the encounter as you see in the simulation when the rotation is on you put an harmfull spell on you opponent in between every 0.25s and 1s, so you will almost certenly have your DFO proc after 10 harmfull proc, so in between 2.5s and 10s.
So let's assume 10 secondes it means you will and 10 sec to the icd. Means to the basetime we used
DFO damages remain.
Muradin change
on 44,18 sec we got 15 FB cost : 30 sec ; 6.3 pyro cost : 7.88 ; LB cost 3.75
So on 55 sec we got 18.63 FB ; 7.84 pyro ; 4.67 LB
So you get in addition of the previous calculations : 3.63 FB ; 1.54 pyro and 0.92 LB
In concequence you get :
200*115%*3.63 = 834.9 sp through the FB
200*130%*1.54 = 400.4 sp through the pyro
200*122.86%*0.92 = 226.06 sp through the LB
Means a total additionnal amount of 1461.36 sp
Finnaly
Let do again the comparaison :
1st 45s : DFO : 7999.24 sp | Muradin : 7057.88 sp
After : DFO : 7999.24 sp | Muradin : 7700.81 sp
Ok so the DFO still beat the Muradin in the worst case ever (no proc during 10s with a 10% ^roc rate on harmfull spells)
And know I am done showing you again and again the same thing, so if you are still stubborn give me proof, do some maths don't just come with some things you are feeling are counter arguments (up to here none of the arguments you gived counter the fact I give you before : In term of spellpower DFO nm is over the Muradin hc)
"Well, I never questioned the spellpower advantage in favor of DFO on paper." the Autor of the topic did, I was answering to him in the first place.
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@Whiteman, in fact haste and crit are both very importants statistics for the mage TTW. So the choice is personnal and depend to the ammount of crit and haste the player currently have.
See u
Tiny.
EDIT : Down time on bosses as a fire mage are an urban legend, the only bosses where you have downtime are Sindragosa (during the fly phase, before the frozen tomb) and LK 25hc during the Frostmourne phase. And these down time are so much long that they play in favour of the DFO because during down time icd of the DFO still going, an after downtime you'll have to bring up again you muradin meanwhile you ll have gain time on your DFO icd !Edited: January 22, 2018
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You don't lose the stacks on Sindra nor LK unless you miss--played. As long as you keep LB ticking you are just fine.
The only thing you show is a made up number of spells and assumptions that will vary by players depending on their gear and encounters.
With a 10% proc chance the time it takes to proc DFO is equal to the time it takes Muradin's to ramp up. This means you will always have an advantage on the first proc in favor of DFO. Obviously, you will have the same disadvantage on every subsequent proc. Muradin's becomes more and more equal the longer the fight lasts.
Let's do some calculations on Muradin's. Assuming it takes 12seconds to ramp up (max. it should take on a mage).
(1100 / 10) * (12/45) + 200 * (33/45) = 29 + 146 = 175 SP (avg. for the first 45sec)
(1100 / 10) * (12/60) + 200 * (48/60) = 22 + 160 = 182 SP (avg. for the first minute)
(1100 / 10) * (12/120) + 200 * (108/120) = 11 + 180 = 191 SP (avg. after 2 minutes)
(1100 / 10) * (12/300) + 200 * (288/300) = 4 + 192 = 196 SP (avg. after 4 minutes)
The proc of DFO grants 5775 SP over 10 ticks. That's an average of 577.5 SP per proc.
Respecting the ICD we get an average SP gain of 577.5 * (20/45) = 257 SP at best. (better than CTS normal)
With a 10sec buffer to get it to proc, this changes to 577.5 * (20/55) = 210.
With a 15sec buffer to get it to proc, this changes to 577.5 * (20/60) = 193.
Now let's have a look how this changes if you miss a single cast (e.g. you blink, ward, IB, whatever).
Missing the first tick:
567 * (20/45) = 252
567 * (20/55) = 206
567 * (20/60) = 189
Missing the last tick:
472 * (20/45) = 210
472 * (20/55) = 172
472 * (20/60) = 157
Taken from the Wowhead comments (calculated by simcraft) the average time to get it to proc on a destruction warlock with a chance of 10% is 55.5sec. I don't see any reason for the average time being lower on a mage. On the dummy I had scenarios with 20(!) casts before it procced. Of course, that's RNG and unlikely to happen, but Muradin's will stack as long as you don't miss.
For a fight like LK, we are talking about a ~10SP difference between both procs.
If you have to choose between DFO and Muradin's there's a high chance your gear favors crit much more than haste, pushing Muradin's miles ahead considering stat weights.
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