What is the Defense and Expertise cap for ICC 25 HC AND RS 25 HC?

[Vegankiller]

Over 1k armor loss is not significant?

It wouldn't be a 1k armor loss. Like I said previously it would be around 500-600. You'd still be able to easily reach 40k with raid buffs if not more. And you'd be able to maintain the expertise.

[Vegankiller]

I am relatively certain that the armor downgrade from swapping the EoF cloak and the DBS 10hc bracers is bigger than 1k when compared to the ToGC downgrades.

Then use togc cape with 4 price armor neck and armor bracers and use double hit ring. Or use armor ring and gem a little hit.

Also you can reach above 40k armor not using the armor bracers or armor cape considering most people use the 277 upgrades

[Beanlord]

Then use togc cape with 4 price armor neck and armor bracers and use double hit ring. Or use armor ring and gem a little hit.

Also you can reach above 40k armor not using the armor bracers or armor cape considering most people use the 277 upgrades

Any reason not to opt for EoF chest, an expertise weapon, VDW boots (for plate wearers) and resorting to hybrids gems instead of resorting to togc gear and/or some pretty awful hit rings?

[Vegankiller]

Any reason not to opt for EoF chest, an expertise weapon, VDW boots (for plate wearers) and resorting to hybrids gems instead of resorting to togc gear and/or some pretty awful hit rings?

The stats on the 258 gear aren't bad and the loss isn't that great. And why go with EoF chest if you were just saying you care about hit and armor? 4 set with expertise cape and boots with mithrios will give you 40k+ armor, 35+ expertise (you can hybrid gem more easily) and you'll be hit capped.

[Beanlord]

The stats on the 258 gear aren't bad and the loss isn't that great. And why go with EoF chest if you were just saying you care about hit and armor? 4 set with expertise cape and boots with mithrios will give you 40k+ armor, 35+ expertise (you can hybrid gem more easily) and you'll be hit capped.

I was assuming that we're talking about sets of gear that are used in order to go as close to 56 as possible. If that's not the case and we're talking just about the soft expertise cap there isn't a reason to go for togc gear at all as the 264 and 277 items that provide expertise would be better.

[Vegankiller]

I was assuming that we're talking about sets of gear that are used in order to go as close to 56 as possible. If that's not the case and we're talking just about the soft expertise cap there isn't a reason to go for togc gear at all as the 264 and 277 items that provide expertise would be better.

My point is the 264 and the 277 exp gear isn't as good in most cases. A mix of both armor sets could easily get you to exp hard cap but you don't need to get hard cap for the bonus expertise to be effective. Anything over 26 is always going to be better then having 26.

[Beanlord]

Anything over 26 is always going to be better then having 26.

Completely agree, 1 + 1 does equal 2.

My point is the 264 and the 277 exp gear isn't as good in most cases.

Care to explain how this happens? In particular the bonus armor pieces you want to drop in wrist and cloak slot will hurt your EHP really hard compared to swapping boots or chest for their expertise counterparts.

[Fluffybully]

56 expertise is not a realistic value that you can reach without sacrificing a lot of other much-needed stats. It is not something you should aim to get, ever. Going above 26 is OK, if you just happen to get that much, as it is a threat increase against any boss. But if you have a choice of not getting excess expertise, do so.

It's a realistic value when you consider, that you prevent the chance of killing yourself. 56 Expertise off set armor for Sindy and Halion is definitely the way to go.

Fyi am just sayin from my pov, cuz not so long ago I almost got rekt due to mangle and maul getting parried at the same time(43 expertise + expertise food) and getting smashed for free 70k dmg. And that was at sindy, let's not talk about Halion + Living Inferno combo =).

[Vegankiller]

Care to explain how this happens? In particular the bonus armor pieces you want to drop in wrist and cloak slot will hurt your EHP really hard compared to swapping boots or chest for their expertise counterparts.

I told you to look at the stats on the 258 gear and clearly you haven't. I was just on my paladin throwing on my full expertise set, its Expertise hard capped while only losing 1.2khp from my full BIS set. And still maintaining 41k armor fully raid buffed. The stat decrease isn't that bad like I have said numerous times. In the future I will provide links to the actual gear so we don't have to repeat ourselves over and over again.

[Beanlord]

I told you to look at the stats on the 258 gear and clearly you haven't. I was just on my paladin throwing on my full expertise set, its Expertise hard capped while only losing 1.2khp from my full BIS set. And still maintaining 41k armor fully raid buffed. The stat decrease isn't that bad like I have said numerous times. In the future I will provide links to the actual gear so we don't have to repeat ourselves over and over again.

The thing is I did look at the stats, both cloak and wrist are a significant gimp to EHP, vdw boots compared to rs boots are a much better compromise and so is EoF chest. Since you mentioned links to actual gear, please do provide an armory link to your full gear set.

[Vegankiller]

The thing is I did look at the stats, both cloak and wrist are a significant gimp to EHP, vdw boots compared to rs boots are a much better compromise and so is EoF chest. Since you mentioned links to actual gear, please do provide an armory link to your full gear set.

If you looked them up you'd see it's not a significant drop in EHP. Like I stated previously you sacrifice almost 1.2k hp but are able to maintain expertise cap. I am on mobile so providing an armory link is a pain I will do it when I'm back on my desktop.

Also i use the togc gear with the vdw boots. The vdw boots are better then RS boots in most cases purely because of the expertise.

[Mercy]

It's a realistic value when you consider, that you prevent the chance of killing yourself. 56 Expertise off set armor for Sindy and Halion is definitely the way to go.

Fyi am just sayin from my pov, cuz not so long ago I almost got rekt due to mangle and maul getting parried at the same time(43 expertise + expertise food) and getting smashed for free 70k dmg. And that was at sindy, let's not talk about Halion + Living Inferno combo =).

For a bear, perhaps. I don't know much about bears. I know enough about them to have assumed we were talking about plate tanks, because bears don't need to bother with the defense cap. My statement still stands for plate tanks.

I agree with you armor is important but the gear adjusts I'm suggesting aren't a significant drop in armor. You still will have both armor prices of t10 as well as either the armor ring or the armor neck as you will have to substitute out 1 for more hit rating since you lose some hit with 4set. But not that much hit since the 1 off piece you go with will have hit. So we're talking about maybe a 400 armor loss and a <60 Stam loss. That's a beneficial trade for more expertise on those 2 fights because you won't live two rapid hits but you can live two massive slow hits.

Also if your main concern is just armor you can go for a full armor build that puts you at armor cap. But armor cap doesn't seem to be that much damage reduction compared to 38-40k armor.

To the untrained eye, armor may appear to be worth less as you get more of it. But the opposite is true, actually. The more you get of it, the better it is. Allow me to explain something;

You are at 70% physical damage mitigation through armor. You have a new armor piece you can equip which will boost your reduction to 71%. You see it as just 1%, and you think "meh, 1% ain't that much, I'm already at 70%".
But that's not really how that works. Imagine that there is a boss that is hitting you for 100k physical melee before armor reduction kicks in. That means after 70% reduction, that same attack hits you for 30k. Add in that extra 1% and you see it as only a reduction of 1k damage. No big deal, amirite?

Actually, it is a big deal. Because a reduction of 1k from 30k is a reduction of 3.3% in damage that you would've taken before. So technically speaking, that damage reduction is actually more than 3-times as powerful as you thought it was.

When people talk about tanks and refer to "EHP", they are not talking about "STAMINA". They are talking about stamina and all of the damage mitigation components of a tank's gear and talents. Which includes damage reduction talents, ARMOR, resistances, etc.

I told you to look at the stats on the 258 gear and clearly you haven't. I was just on my paladin throwing on my full expertise set, its Expertise hard capped while only losing 1.2khp from my full BIS set. And still maintaining 41k armor fully raid buffed. The stat decrease isn't that bad like I have said numerous times. In the future I will provide links to the actual gear so we don't have to repeat ourselves over and over again.

You are seriously selling armor short. It is worth more than you think it is.

[Beanlord]

If you looked them up you'd see it's not a significant drop in EHP. Like I stated previously you sacrifice almost 1.2k hp but are able to maintain expertise cap. I am on mobile so providing an armory link is a pain I will do it when I'm back on my desktop.

Also i use the togc gear with the vdw boots. The vdw boots are better then RS boots in most cases purely because of the expertise.

I do not mind waiting for the armory link.

[Vegankiller]

I think you're giving armor more credit then it really deserves for these specific fights. I understand your math for damage reduction values and how a 1% armor increase can be the difference between dying and living a hit but, my argument is that for these two specific dragon fights armor isn't as valuable. Example, If I take two 40k hits with 2 seconds in-between boss hits that's enough time for healers to cast and bring me back up before the next hit. But if I were to receive two 30k blows that are only 1.3 seconds(party haste) apart that doesn't give healers enough time to even cast. I've seen amazing healers let incredible tanks die on Sindy and halion purely because the damage comes out too fast and you can't possible get a heal off in that time.

Hell even 2 months ago when party haste was bugged to **** guilds saw BIS tanks dropping like flies on bosses they've never died too before because they'd auto tanks faster then healers can keep up. Also I know this counts for nothing but from my first hand experience every healer ive ever asked says it's easier to heal tanks that have avoidance sets over armor sets. That to me devalues armor over other stats because I'm gonna go with what helps them heal me the most. NOT saying armor isn't important but it's not as important as everyone is thinking.

[Fluffybully]

For a bear, perhaps. I don't know much about bears. I know enough about them to have assumed we were talking about plate tanks, because bears don't need to bother with the defense cap. My statement still stands for plate tanks.

Defense cap shouldn't be an issue with 277 gear. However getting hard expertise cap(Halion and Sindy only) should be a piece of cake as well, or at least having an offset gear for it.

As to the armor part. Based on gear what you have in your bags and if one needs to rip 1k armor or so to get the cap, it's totally worth it for Sindragosa and Halion. It's 1k static damage reduction vs RNG 1 shotting yourself. Bosses that hit like trucks and got parry haste enabled is where Expertise should have higher value than any other stats.