What is the Defense and Expertise cap for ICC 25 HC AND RS 25 HC?

[DarkenedHue]

Example, If I take two 40k hits with 2 seconds in-between boss hits that's enough time for healers to cast and bring me back up before the next hit. But if I were to receive two 30k blows that are only 1.3 seconds(party haste) apart that doesn't give healers enough time to even cast. I've seen amazing healers let incredible tanks die on Sindy and halion purely because the damage comes out too fast and you can't possible get a heal off in that time.

I guess what you're getting at is that when damage income becomes too massive and rapid, armor has no hope of possibly saving you, so at that point you might as well stack avoidance and hope to get lucky because avoiding a hit completely is the only way you'd live anyway.

While it's technically true that there are some situations that might indeed be the case, most of the standard parry-hasting bosses aren't typically among them. Both Halion and Sindy hit for pretty manageable amounts. Provided you're appropriately geared, and that you were topped up beforehand, you should be able to survive 2 back-to-back hits against them even if you end up not receiving any heals in that period. Even if you don't end up being able to survive that, the over-kill amount will likely have been small enough that it might have been possible to survive had you just had a tiny bit more EHP.

Besides, 1.3 seconds is actually a good enough window to have at least received a small heal or two, as well as some variable amount of incidental healing.

Also I know this counts for nothing but from my first hand experience every healer ive ever asked says it's easier to heal tanks that have avoidance sets over armor sets.

Your healers are certainly suggesting something pretty strange. The reason armor plays better into the tank-healer dynamic in late WotLK is because your healers will likely almost always be spamming heals on you as if you had 0% avoidance regardless (because they're going to have the wherewithal to be able to do that). Having Stamina and Armor to increase your EHP, in conjunction with the constant influx of healing provided by your healers, is how your tank is ensured to be at its highest possible HP before every hit lands, thus most reliably reducing the chance for any hit on you to be a lethal one. Avoidance is nice too, sure. You avoid an extra hit here or there, but the same level of guarantee doesn't exist. It's not that it doesn't help you survive; it's simply that it's not something that's advisable to bank on. Chances also are that having avoided the hit isn't going to stop your healers from queuing heals on you anyway, because they'd have to do it in anticipation for the next one.

[Mercy]

Defense cap shouldn't be an issue with 277 gear. However getting hard expertise cap(Halion and Sindy only) should be a piece of cake as well, or at least having an offset gear for it.

As to the armor part. Based on gear what you have in your bags and if one needs to rip 1k armor or so to get the cap, it's totally worth it for Sindragosa and Halion. It's 1k static damage reduction vs RNG 1 shotting yourself. Bosses that hit like trucks and got parry haste enabled is where Expertise should have higher value than any other stats.

I didn't say defense cap is an issue. I'm saying that a Druid has far more stats they can spend elsewhere because they don't have to invest nearly as much of their budget on defense. You very clearly haven't played a plate tank very much if you honestly think the 56 expertise cap is "cake", much less actually being worth pursuing.

On the topic of armor, I'm confused. "I'm going to get the hard expertise cap so I take less -potential- damage from physical attacks while sacrificing a large chunk of my best stat for physical mitigation!"
I might've understood if you were arguing for a frost resistance set for Sindragosa, but for expertise? Seriously?

I guess what you're getting at is that when damage income becomes too massive and rapid, armor has no hope of possibly saving you, so at that point you might as well stack avoidance and hope to get lucky because avoiding a hit completely is the only way you'd live anyway.

While it's technically true that there are some situations that might indeed be the case, most of the standard parry-hasting bosses aren't typically among them. Both Halion and Sindy hit for pretty manageable amounts. Provided you're appropriately geared, and that you were topped up beforehand, you should be able to survive 2 back-to-back hits against them even if you end up not receiving any heals in that period. Even if you don't end up being able to survive that, the over-kill amount will likely have been small enough that it might have been possible to survive had you just had a tiny bit more EHP.

Besides, 1.3 seconds is actually a good enough window to have at least received a small heal or two, as well as some variable amount of incidental healing.

^

[Vegankiller]

I guess what you're getting at is that when damage income becomes too massive and rapid, armor has no hope of possibly saving you, so at that point you might as well stack avoidance and hope to get lucky because avoiding a hit completely is the only way you'd live anyway.

While it's technically true that there are some situations that might indeed be the case, most of the standard parry-hasting bosses aren't typically among them. Both Halion and Sindy hit for pretty manageable amounts. Provided you're appropriately geared, and that you were topped up beforehand, you should be able to survive 2 back-to-back hits against them even if you end up not receiving any heals in that period. Even if you don't end up being able to survive that, the over-kill amount will likely have been small enough that it might have been possible to survive had you just had a tiny bit more EHP.

Besides, 1.3 seconds is actually a good enough window to have at least received a small heal or two, as well as some variable amount of incidental healing.

This simple isn't true. Sindragosa and halion hit for a lot on heroic difficulties and if their autos are sped up even bis tanks with cds being rotated will drop.
Why would avoidance be better then expertise as well that makes no sense. I can either gear for the chance to miss the 2nd party haste auto. OR I can get expertise cap and not have auto attacks rapidly hitting me. I know I can live between the normal gap in between autos so why not just gear to make sure to make sure that happens.

You can go with more armor and pray to God that much armor keeps the overkill from two fast autos low enough.

You could go with avoidance and pray that you avoid the 2nd quick auto.

Or you can avoid the 2nd quick auto and be assured that 1 auto won't kill you.

Also 1.3 seconds on a heal was just a random number I used. With party haste those autos come out much quicker.

[Vegankiller]

On the topic of armor, I'm confused. "I'm going to get the hard expertise cap so I take less -potential- damage from physical attacks while sacrificing a large chunk of my best stat for physical mitigation!"
I might've understood if you were arguing for a frost resistance set for Sindragosa, but for expertise? Seriously?


^

No, the idea is I take more expertise to avoid 2nd quick parry attack that would kill me even if I was armor capped. You don't take expertise to mitigate the damage you take it to avoid the 2nd quick attack.

[Mercy]

I think you're giving armor more credit then it really deserves for these specific fights. I understand your math for damage reduction values and how a 1% armor increase can be the difference between dying and living a hit but, my argument is that for these two specific dragon fights armor isn't as valuable. Example, If I take two 40k hits with 2 seconds in-between boss hits that's enough time for healers to cast and bring me back up before the next hit. But if I were to receive two 30k blows that are only 1.3 seconds(party haste) apart that doesn't give healers enough time to even cast. I've seen amazing healers let incredible tanks die on Sindy and halion purely because the damage comes out too fast and you can't possible get a heal off in that time.

You're misunderstanding. What I presented to you wasn't arithmetic. If you are seeing only arithmetic there, then that's part of the issue. It is a logical presentation of facts that cannot be disputed.

Also I know this counts for nothing but from my first hand experience every healer ive ever asked says it's easier to heal tanks that have avoidance sets over armor sets. That to me devalues armor over other stats because I'm gonna go with what helps them heal me the most. NOT saying armor isn't important but it's not as important as everyone is thinking.

As someone who currently mains a healer, and has mained a healer for a very large portion of my WoW career, I can tell you that the only two types of healer in WotLK that are going to tell a tank they are easier to heal are 1) bad healers, or 2) a holy paladin that is spamming Holy Light and only makes the claim because their holy light casts are useless on you more often than they otherwise would be.

A tank build for avoidance, by nature, has less EHP (this includes armor and overall mitigation) than a tank build specifically for EHP. This means that even though the avoidance tank takes damage less often, when they do take damage, they take more of it. If I'm a nuke-heal-spamming Holydin, it doesn't affect me *that much*. If I'm literally *any* other healer, it's going to make a huge difference. Because that is forcing me, a holy priest, to react with more panic, rather than just casually and occasionally pinging you with heals.

There are only two situations where you should actively seek out more avoidance.
1. When a boss hitting you two times back-to-back will most likely kill you. Such can be evidenced on fights like Brutallus back in TBC, where otherwise EHP-built tanks would instead use an avoidance set. If getting more EHP will not increase the number of hits it will take a specific boss to kill you, then it is OK to get more avoidance instead of more EHP. But unless you're willing to get down to an exact science and switch gear out on a per-boss basis, then you're not going to benefit from this.

2. You're playing an Unholy DK where the up-time on your Bone Shield benefits from avoidance, and thus making the effect last longer. But just the same as the above point, this is only useful until a point.

[Mercy]

No, the idea is I take more expertise to avoid 2nd quick parry attack that would kill me even if I was armor capped. You don't take expertise to mitigate the damage you take it to avoid the 2nd quick attack.

If, on the bosses in question, you are legitimately concerned about a parry-haste melee attack killing you, then I would strongly suggest that you keep farming whatever content prior to that boss so that you can get some gear and not be a paper tank.

Also stop letting the melee in your group attack from the front of the boss. And yell at Hunters that don't position their pets properly.

[Vegankiller]

You're misunderstanding. What I presented to you wasn't arithmetic. If you are seeing only arithmetic there, then that's part of the issue. It is a logical presentation of facts that cannot be disputed.

I understand the logical points you were making I wasn't disputing that, I was saying that I understood the mitigation example you gave. And again I feel my argument is being completely ignored. Even with Max ehp build parry haste on Sindy or halion will kill you. So expertise is more beneficial because it can remove the 2nd quick hit entirely.

As someone who currently mains a healer, and has mained a healer for a very large portion of my WoW career, I can tell you that the only two types of healer in WotLK that are going to tell a tank they are easier to heal are 1) bad healers, or 2) a holy paladin that is spamming Holy Light and only makes the claim because their holy light casts are useless on you more often than they otherwise would be.

A tank build for avoidance, by nature, has less EHP (this includes armor and overall mitigation) than a tank build specifically for EHP. This means that even though the avoidance tank takes damage less often, when they do take damage, they take more of it. If I'm a nuke-heal-spamming Holydin, it doesn't affect me *that much*. If I'm literally *any* other healer, it's going to make a huge difference. Because that is forcing me, a holy priest, to react with more panic, rather than just casually and occasionally pinging you with heals.

There are only two situations where you should actively seek out more avoidance.
1. When a boss hitting you two times back-to-back will most likely kill you. Such can be evidenced on fights like Brutallus back in TBC, where otherwise EHP-built tanks would instead use an avoidance set. If getting more EHP will not increase the number of hits it will take a specific boss to kill you, then it is OK to get more avoidance instead of more EHP. But unless you're willing to get down to an exact science and switch gear out on a per-boss basis, then you're not going to benefit from this.

2. You're playing an Unholy DK where the up-time on your Bone Shield benefits from avoidance, and thus making the effect last longer. But just the same as the above point, this is only useful until a point.

I do agree with you on all of these points. EHP is of course preferable on fights like lk,marrowgar,dbs,PP. But I'm purely stating what I've been told by healers. I do not heal and never have so I always make an effort to communicate with my healers before pulls. Some gear sets I know are better for some fights but for most I ask. I also think it's poor character to call these healers "bad" just because they think a certain set is easier to heal then others. This server isn't perfect and a lot of stuff isn't coded exactly how we all remember it. If someone thinks something works better in a certain situation maybe they are right. I play with some amazing players that are far better then I ever wish to be and I find it rude you call them bad based on an opinion they have.

[DarkenedHue]

This simple isn't true. Sindragosa and halion hit for a lot on heroic difficulties and if their autos are sped up even bis tanks with cds being rotated will drop.
Why would avoidance be better then expertise as well that makes no sense. I can either gear for the chance to miss the 2nd party haste auto. OR I can get expertise cap and not have auto attacks rapidly hitting me. I know I can live between the normal gap in between autos so why not just gear to make sure to make sure that happens.

I don't properly remember my damage values so correct me if I'm wrong but Sindy melees for something like 30-35k, and Halion for around 25-30k. If you're a BiS tank and you're either a Bear, Blood DK or Pally you should have the inherent EHP to survive those kinds of double hits unless you weren't already at full HP when they went off.

I didn't mean to suggest that avoidance was better than being immune to parry-hastes entirely, that was just a comment on the armor vs avoidance point you brought up. I don't disagree that there is immense value to guaranteeing that you're not getting hit quicker than every 1.8 seconds.

[Vegankiller]

If, on the bosses in question, you are legitimately concerned about a parry-haste melee attack killing you, then I would strongly suggest that you keep farming whatever content prior to that boss so that you can get some gear and not be a paper tank.

Also stop letting the melee in your group attack from the front of the boss. And yell at Hunters that don't position their pets properly.

Hi my name is Eaglebloo I tank for my guild D I R T Y. Rest assured that I have the relevant gear and make sure my melee,hunters and warlocks stand back side of Dragons. It helps to have the extra expertise to avoid myself from parrying. I've tanked Sindy heroic on a bear pally and dk and on all 3 I find the extra expertise to be very beneficial.

[Mercy]

Hi my name is Eaglebloo I tank for my guild D I R T Y. Rest assured that I have the relevant gear and make sure my melee,hunters and warlocks stand back side of Dragons. It helps to have the extra expertise to avoid myself from parrying. I've tanked Sindy heroic on a bear pally and dk and on all 3 I find the extra expertise to be very beneficial.

I know. I was being a smartass.

As I had said in previous posts, having extra expertise is OK. I'm just arguing that aiming for the 56 cap is not feasible, and it's not something you should sacrifice bulk amounts of armor for if you can help it.

[Eva]

It's a 3% EHP loss to eliminate any chance of a damage spike.

If only to blame others in cases where they actually do kill you.

[Vegankiller]

I know. I was being a smartass.

As I had said in previous posts, having extra expertise is OK. I'm just arguing that aiming for the 56 cap is not feasible, and it's not something you should sacrifice bulk amounts of armor for if you can help it.

And I respect your opinion on that but I feel the extra expertise has really made a difference for us when downing Sindy and halion HC. I'll record our Monday 25Hc run and post it on this thread. I'll use expertise set first with cap and 41k armor and if we need a 2nd attempt I'll go with armor cap set and that should be a decent example to compare side by side.

[Mercy]

I understand the logical points you were making I wasn't disputing that, I was saying that I understood the mitigation example you gave. And again I feel my argument is being completely ignored. Even with Max ehp build parry haste on Sindy or halion will kill you. So expertise is more beneficial because it can remove the 2nd quick hit entirely.

It shouldn't happen often.

Also, Sindragosa and Halion are two very different encounters for tanks. I wouldn't lump them together.
Halion does hit very hard with his melees, I know. The damage for Halion is physical, fire and shadow. The latter two depending on the realm you are in. Of course you already know this, but bear with me.

Sindragosa is different in that the magical damage during that encounter are frost and arcane. At the start of WotLK, players were presented with the frost resistance crafted set(s) specifically for Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad (a design decision Blizzard didn't go forward with in later tiers). I have personally tanked Sindragosa on both a DK and a Paladin, multiple times over, for a number of years. On all difficulties, as well. Almost always, I use my frost resistance set. This set on my Paladin puts me at 37k armor, 21 expertise. On my DK, I am at 33.9k armor and 25 expertise. Self-buffs.
I've never died to a parry-hasted attack from Sindragosa. Ever. That's not to say she hasn't parry-hasted me, but just that damage is never what would kill me on that fight. There are other things in that fight that are far more threatening. Hence the frost resistance set.

Halion is very different because there isn't an effective usable shadow or fire resistance set. And of course his melee attacks hit harder than Sindragosa. I'd be worried if they didn't, considering he is a full half-tier above Sindragosa. But it's also a fight that both the tanks and the healers have to change their approach in order to handle it well. Flame Breath hurts, and there isn't a resistance set for it. But if none of your raiders are standing in fire, then there's not going to be any damage going out aside from the occasional debuff and the tank damage. That changes in the shadow realm of the fight, but the bulk tank damage is still a concern and is usually the focus of the healers.
I have died to parry-hasted attacks on Halion, but that has only ever been in combination with a breath that I didn't have a CD for.

TLDR; On those fights, parry-hasted attacks shouldn't be too common, and they shouldn't be life-threatening. It's the magic damage you should be more worried about.

[Mercy]

And I respect your opinion on that but I feel the extra expertise has really made a difference for us when downing Sindy and halion HC. I'll record our Monday 25Hc run and post it on this thread. I'll use expertise set first with cap and 41k armor and if we need a 2nd attempt I'll go with armor cap set and that should be a decent example to compare side by side.

If you feel it has made quite a difference, then that's all I need to hear, really. We could argue until dawn and still not be finished. But I've always been a strong advocate of "find what works for you", so I'll shut up and go back to my hole.

[Fluffybully]

@Mercy
Just outa curiosity, when was the last time you've tanked either halion or sindy on hc?

It's not the 1 parry problem it's the 2 parries in a row problem. 2 parries equals to almost instant next hit and let's assume tanking Halion outside with a big add on you, and being unlucky enuf to get 3 hits at the same time it's pretty much bai life. Avoiding pointless deaths and wipes is worth the expertise cap.