The AoE is bonkers for what? Trash mobs? It's irrelevant on most of the content you want to optimize for, which is bosses. The damage on the proc is multiplied by tanking stances which means that on a DK tank, that proc is twice as dangerous when it comes to pulling things you don't want to pull.
I'm selling it for exactly what it is, a weapon with 0 secondary tanking stats. You seem to be under the false impression that if you have all the best gear available to you, you suddenly somehow magically get all your caps without losing any EH. In reality, when you are BiS, you want your weapon to serve as a tanking stat stick so you can wear more BiS gear/gems, instead of having to sacrifice EH by using inferior alternatives just to reach the same values a tank with a proper tanking weapon would have. Your Shadowmourne "BiS" will be worse than a Gloren/Crypt BiS because your weapon contributes nothing. Even when compared to 264 Ramaladni's, Shadowmourne is worse because even though it has 13 more stamina, making up for the expertise with rest of your gear will cost you far more. How are you going to get that expertise? You wanna wear Grinning Skull Boots over Impending Resurrection? 35 stamina lost. Wanna use exp/stamina gems? 9 stamina lost each gem. Suddenly Ramaladni has 70+ more stamina if you want to keep your expertise high.
Shadowmourne needs to have a huge stamina advantage over a hit/exp equivalent in order to provide the same EH and then when you consider the fact that it actually has less stamina than both Gloren/Crypt, it's just laughable. If you want to try and make Shadowmourne look better than a hit/exp weapon, you're gonna have to scrape as low as ilvl 251 and that's the bottom of the barrel you're scraping.
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Banned
Edited: March 21, 2018
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Member
The reason the parry from SM sucks isn't because it's minuscule, but due to the fact that it's a proc and procs sucks for tanks. in by itself it's abut 68parry rating thats=parry from a whole item.
Twice as dangerous? oh please it's still nothing compared to a WW/Divine Storm or almost any other AoE. if you're taking aggro from another tank via the SM proc then there is no other tank. the fact that you actually think you can outaggro anything with it is pretty odd. the only thing it can do is pull **** u don't wanna pull.
And concerning nucleus during bpc and such. that's an exaggeration. if you end up pulling nuclous with ur SM then your boss positioning is awful to begin with. and if you as a TANK pull nuclous then oh man there is a goodchance the nuclous are all over the place if you're that close. and even if a nuclous spawns next to you. even if it wasn't you who grabs it with SM how about the warrs/palas/dk or hell even LB or W/E else AoE going on....
From all the bosses in ICC with the only boss that it applies for is the LK. in most cases you're the MT with pala OT, if bear is MT then you're OT and hence completely no problem.
At the end it's a significant difference between Gloren hc, probably 2kish HP which is pretty significant. from 82k hp tank to 80khp tank. boohoo. hmm factoring in DS, and especially VP and everything yea it's a significant loss indeed.
SM is not a great weapon that we can agree on, but it's not fking awful. Dks in are just so strong that one can afford to use an inferior weapon and not be 'just ok" still outperforming other tanks(only bears better MT imo) and doing really good. our short CDS and in any 25manhc with sacrifice/MS. you can tank **** with noodles.
Am not arguing that SM is a strong tank weapon. I 100% accept there are better options. I myself never use my SM for tanking. forever Gloren hc. all am saying is. it's by no means "trivial content"
if you use SM as your tank weapon you can do ANY content as a DK. cuz we're tough sons of *****esEdited: March 23, 2018
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Banned
The parry you get from the strength is so terrible it sucks on at least 3 different layers. It's avoidance, it's also the worst kind of avoidance AND it's unstable.
Oh, you mean those abilities that are under the full control of their respective players unlike Shadowmourne's RNG purple jizz proc, which means they can avoid damaging things you don't want damaged and you can't? Good comparison there, genius. The problem isn't stealing aggro from the second tank when he already has established aggro, the problem is the proc happening on things the other tank wants to aggro from afar like shamblings/nucleus and your garbage RNG proc getting in the way and breaking CC.
The Nuclei spawn all over the place which means they can easily spawn near your Shadowmourne. The range of the proc is also around 15 yrds, longer than any other melee AoE and it's RNG on top. This is why Shadowmournes are switched to backup weapons and all controlled AOE is used with care on that fight. Another reason Shadowmourne is bad on that fight is if it's being used by the Keleseth tank, where the constant AOE damage will shorten the lifespan of the Dark Nuclei he's tanking.
If you don't consider 2k HP a significant loss in EH, that pretty much invalidates any opinion you might have on tanking weapons.
You wont be outperforming anyone with this kind of terrible optimization. You can technically tank heroic bosses with a 232 weapon you got from RDF. Does that mean those weapons aren't trash compared to actually BiS alternatives? No, it just means your raid members are going to have to work harder to carry your handicapped self.Edited: March 23, 2018
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Member
You seem to have a hard time differentiating between good and bad, standing in marrow fire=bad, backpeddling in pvp=bad, getting parry=not bad. regarding how minuscule it is. it is still a defensive state which you're getting for free if you don't have a decent tank weapon. and yup the only downside is it being unstable. which I already told you about. selective reading=bad
Do you honestly think warrs/palas and dks aren't using SM @ LK/Vala/Tald?
Dude, the nuclei if not from your SM it will be pulled by some DPS SM. and you know what it's FINE! this isn't like pre core where the nuclei come melee range. they stay max distance to chain. the kele tank will take it from you. the dps will move abit from it and dps tald/vala. and you won't even keep it for long. kele tank will tank it.
unless you raid in Lordaeron you're just being silly here. in most LoD farming guilds you will find most SM users have SM than not. I propose you pay more attention to that. and to also add. your SM proc even with ur threat modifiers is COMPLETE ****. Wandering plague and LB will take em from you. and have you not heard of fragment cancel macro????
Using extreme cases to justify any concept is ridiculous, 99% of cases your OT is there to taunt the Shambling PLUS some form of Range attack. HoR for pala since taunt+damage, FF for dudu, IT for dk and well with a dk it's never an issue he can taunt,DG IT twice or w/e. only warrs will have taunt issue, but again they probably have Vigilance in a bis fury to get unlimitted taunts from all the ghouls attacking him. and if you think your SM proc will PULL the shambling from a tank and his Ranged..then pigs can fly.
oh and TRUST ME! "bad mdps about 80%" MDPS will keep using every AoE even when shambling is coming.
That was not sarcasm my friend Did I miss something? pretty sure I CLEARLY said 2kHP is significant esp when we factor in DS,BT and especially Vampiric Blood.
Using extreme cases to discredit a weapon which we already established is INFERIOR is pointless. SM is not a good tanking weapon but it's not JUST for trivial content.
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Banned
You're not getting the parry for free, you're sacrificing significant EH you could have with a better weapon for insignificant parry, the worst avoidance per rating point that exists. Sacrificing significant EH for insignificant avoidance = bad. Mmkay?
It was pretty clear that I was specifically talking about the BPC fight where any good Shadowmourne DPS will switch to a backup weapon when going on Keleseth or risk wiping the raid for 500 more DPS. Just because this is too complicated for you, doesn't mean good raiders don't do it.
"Just because one person is ******ed, it's okay for me to be ******ed too!". I have no idea what you're even trying to say here. It's very easy for a nuclei to be within your melee range when it spawns, especially if it chains to someone else other than you. It can lead to situations where the Keleseth tank will taunt a Nuclei and then your RNG proc will go off, hitting the Nuclei, causing it to go back to you after the taunt wears off. If there's multiple Shadowmournes on Keleseth then it turns into a complete clown fiesta for the Keleseth tank who is now getting his orbs aoe'd down by kids with Down's Syndrome trying to inflate their DPS.
Obviously a lot of guilds have Shadowmourne because it's BiS for DPS. That doesn't mean those players don't swap when situation demands, like on BPC. Regardless of what you feel like the threat of Shadowmourne is on a tank, the reality is that the threat is more than twice that of a DPS with Shadowmourne and that makes it twice the liability.
As for your macro, you seem to not understand how it actually works. You cancel Chaos Bane, which is the buff you get after you reach 10 stacks and triggers the AoE, you do this because it allows you to gain more stacks, more strength and more AoE procs. If you're canceling the fragments themselves, you're not only creating yourself unnecessary work, where you have to constantly pay attention to your RNG stacks, diverting your attention from more important things, but now you're also neutering your Shadowmourne, which makes it even worse on tanks than it already was.
Is it? A big part of tanking is minimizing extremes. This is why you use glyph of taunt and cap hit. Even if it's just a 0.5% chance to miss, when it does it happen, it can majorly screw you over. You need to stop comparing tanks to DPS and trying to justify dumb behavior just because there's DPS that do it. If a DPS dies, you can still easily finish the raid. If the tank dies, it's RO.
When a single, already inferior, weapon ends up introducing a whole new layer of raid wiping RNG in your tanking, the ridiculous thing to do is to argue it's not terrible.
It sure looked like sarcasm to me, especially with that boohoo in there. Poor communication on your part.Edited: March 24, 2018
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Member
lose EhP compared to to what? Are you still trying to compare SM to some other tanking weapon? because am not. am just saying SM is not only JUST Trivial content. Unless it gives you some magical -stamina debuff, you ain't losing nothing. and if you have a weapon that gives you more stamina then basically just use it.am not saying to use SM over any weapon that gives them better stats/EhP. it's not rocket science. SM is by no means a good tanking weapon.but far from being a Trivial content only weapon. and parry=good mmmmkay?
You're purposely pretending not to understand this at this point, Lets go over the scenario you placed slowly
1. DPS will move form point A(Vala/Tald) to point B(Kele). You the tank is going to be 15yards+ away from Point B and his nuclei.
2 You the tank like the "good dps who will use their backup weapon" will do even better. and not even go to kele lol
Some of the examples you give are pretty odd, like you haven't tanked this fight at all. if a NUCLEI SPAWNS @ melee range something will just hit it. this isn't about being bad it's just how it is. you have 16-17DPS. a high chance some form of AoE will concede with a Nuclei spawning. it's NOT THE end of the world.
whether you're using SM or Gloren if a Nuclei spawns @ melee. there is a very very high chance something is gonna hit it. you being the 18th SLIM RnG isn't gonna make a difference. because guess what in both scenarios the Kele tank will still take it. unless it dies.
and now concerning the scenario you placed about tank taunts it and then you pulling it by your bane, your bane which applies for any other SM user. and it's not like the Nuclei is just gonna immediately chain to you. taunts are a 3second debuff. a tank will 100% hit it by sth by then. because of he doesn't the nuclei will go to a high TPS healer!
As mentioned you're speaking about bane cancel and not fragment cancel big difference.
Not justifying nothing, if a bane proc concedes with any form of AoE by any dps you won't be pulling ****. you're under the assumption just because you have frost presence on your chaos bane is like a mini IT or something, it's nothing like that. it's completely completely**** AoE threat compared to the worst attack by any dps. compared to the lousiest attack by any tank it's nothing. "and also I forgot to mention Heroic Throw for warr b4 as range attack" so yea u won't be pulling **** from tanks
Whether you use SM or the devil's weapon itself. this extreme cases have little to do with SM and everything to do with sleeping Off tanks.
What Layer of RnG? the TWO fights mentioned that we have yet to find a single scenario that even sticks? At what raid will an OT not hit the shambling after it's 2-3 seconds animation +3seconds(taunt duration) ?
but nooo, the problem isn't the OT not taking the Shambling it's the SM lol?
And to avoid this silly extreme cases, you can always have fragment cancel macro for them 2fights and P1LK to your abilities just like rune strike! you don't need to focus or nothing.you just spam your abiltiies and no bane. (and ofc in this hypothetical scenario we have a DK TANKING VALA AND TALD LOL)Edited: March 24, 2018
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Forum Veteran
Point is, everyone with sense of game will take weapon that actually empowers tanking when they are tanking.
And people who dont give a crap about putting more pressure on healers and some additional wipes on your raid team will tell you that SM is not "that bad". Which, it's not. You can get it done.
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Wind of Northrend
yo i just wanna tag in here real quick to say that you don't need infinite EH to tank bosses, you get enough and then going for avoidance (aka mitigation) is smart. personally, with 30% buff i always play with SM and at least couple of dps items on my gear for better threat in general, but when it comes to no buff content i always equip highest EH set for lich king and sindragosa (because these are the only bosses which can, realistically speaking, 2 hit you to death from full hp on a no buff run [also technically speaking bpc when tanking valanar and taldaram]).
in fact, i use very simple rule for this
>if boss can kill you in 2 hits from full hp, then play serious gear and don't joke around
>if boss can kill you in 3 hits from full hp, equip some mitigation/avoidance or damage items for threat (up to 3)
>if boss can only kill you in more than 3 hits from full hp, you may equip 4-5 dps items (trinkets, weapon, some offpieces like rings or wrist for higher hit/expertise) or avoidance items for higher mitigation (again, trinkets, offpieces which provide more overall avoidance which means less overall dmg taken)
again, you don't need same EH for all 12 bosses, the only serious bosses you may want to respect are sindragosa and lich king (and tanking 2 bpc bosses), especially if you don't have great items yet.
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Banned
If you're not gonna compare weapons to better weapons, you're just arguing to what degree you can suck and get away with it while your raid carries you.
Here's an incomplete list of weapons better than Shadowmourne.
Spoiler:Show
The quote you responded to had nothing to do with tanks at all, it was about the possible risk factors of having Shadowmourne DPS on Keleseth. Learn to read.
15 yrds is not melee range. A 15 yrd RNG AoE proc is not the same as a controlled 8 yrd AoE. Only odd thing here is how you can blame someone of not knowing what they're talking about while simultaneously making a comparison this stupid.
Normally, you can justify a DPS using Shadowmourne because it's a significant boost to their DPS and they don't generate that much threat with the proc itself but when you actually consider Shadowmourne on a tank, you quickly realize that there's really nothing but negatives to be gained from it. Do you get any significant DPS? No. Survivability? No. All you get is just the equivalent of 2 more moutbreathers running around with Shadowmourne procs in your raid for 0 gain.
It's much better if a nucleus chains to a healer because healers like standing in between the groups, making them easy to reach. If your purple jizz aggroes the nucleus on the other side of Africa, one of the tanks will be forced to move.
I agree. There is a big difference. Canceling Chaos Bane serves the useful purpose of increasing the DPS of your already BiS weapon, something you tend to want to do as a DPSer. Canceling fragments on the other hand is just you handicapping your already handicapped weapon because otherwise it has the potential to handicap everyone else.
You need to stop comparing Shadowmourne to controlled abilities and start comparing tank Shadowmourne to DPS Shadowmourne. There's almost no difference in damage and the tank doubles the threat. Any situation where Shadowmourne was already bad in is now even worse with it being on a tank. For what gain exactly? Null.
**** happens. Your job as a tank is to negate risk, not add to it, especially when you gain absolutely nothing useful out of it, rather you actually lose tanking stats compared to better and easier to get alternatives. You just fail to understand the Murphy's Law mentality good tanks operate under.
But what about that parry?Spoiler:Show
Mitigation is not avoidance, it's damage reduction and mostly part of your EH. There are no such things as EH breakpoints where avoidance suddenly becomes better than EH because you can survive an X amount of hits. This is rubbish. Your health pool isn't a system of 3 hearts that all correspond to 1 damage and 1 heal, where you want to stop at 3 because the fourth one is too much investment. No, your hp is fluid like a health bar in a fighting game where the bigger your bar, the more variations of damage and healing you can sustain. You will always want more EH because that is by far the best way to ensure your consistent survival against the most combinations of damage and healing intake. Couple that with the fact that healers have infinite mana and there's no reason to avoid hits, there's just absolutely no reason to go avoidance ever.
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Wind of Northrend
I dont know about u guize, but, i feel like Avoidance is usefull in situations where there is nothing left but to pray to RNG and u are left with no CDs facing a hard hitting Boss. This I first found out whilr trying to tank VoA Fire boss with 1000 dmg increase stacks while doing the Achiv run...
Im not saying SM is good cos of the parry u get from Strength proc (i prefer Gloren on all races, and maybe Bryntroll on Orc), but couple of other items could be swaped for some extra avoidance on some encounters... Hell, maybe even matching some gem slots can be nice and dandy in this case since u get more stats overall for the cost of some stamina...
Also, on LK, when BiS, even 1k HP/armor wont make much of a diference tbh, from what i saw and expirienced, u will eather get one or two shoted, but some extra avoidance can come as a handy tool to have.
All in all, i think u two are simply not understanding each other and running in circles...
Bottom line should be that as long as u pop def cds on time, 1-4 item diference wont matter that much, if they are all 277 avoidance gear or 264 armor gear...
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Member
@DamnOriginal
I'm honestly tired of this discussion. like this for instance
"15 yrds is not melee range. A 15 yrd RNG AoE proc is not the same as a controlled 8 yrd AoE. Only odd thing here is how you can blame someone of not knowing what they're talking about while simultaneously making a comparison this stupid. "
What does that have to do with anything? it's like you're just throwing random facts in. SM bane is 15yards? well duh me and you both said that. hence why 15yards away from Kele. and yet you come and throw it up there and calling it stupid...this point adds nothing at all. cuz even if you're not using SM you're still gonna stay that far away in order for your dps SM not to be close to kele.. so what does this add? is it just a random fact to call me stupid? because sure seems like it
with all due respect, It feels like it's a matter of ego to you now or something, it's fine if you wanna go this route but am tired of this tom and jerry hicky. so yea lets just call it.
@Angrylol
Very true, it's exactly what am trying to say. I mean if you have a tanking weapon 100% go for it over SM. but SM won't be the defining item to make you not kill a boss(excluding parry/haste)
@Asphyxiation
hah indeed, but again whenever I do anything like that I just feeling like a complete arse for abusing healers XD.
@Gnimo
Concerning your avoidance build, there was this dk tank in guild "D I R T Y" his name was Rektarian or something. he had a 100% avoidance build he used to use in LoD.with every single matching socket. it's SURPRISINGLY GOOD! but again RnG can **** you up anytime though XD.(sudden health spikes probably made the healers immune to heart attacks by now lol)
Logic says it should suck, but it was very good. either diminishing returns for dodge/parry aren't scripted properly, or he is the luckiest dude since he is the guild MT and does it every week. 100% if I try anything remotely like that build I'll get hit 3 times in a row every time lol. (and probably die in 2 since not EhP XD)
edit: just found him in armory, and he is EhP now. stability over RnG as always eh.Edited: March 25, 2018
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Banned
What does that have to do with anything? Melee DPS can't stay 15 yrds away from Keleseth and still do DPS. 8yrds Whirlwind/Divine Storm =/= 15 yrds Shadowmourne proc, conflating them doesn't work. I have no idea how someone can have this much trouble with concepts this simple. Then again, you did say you were tired.
Now if only feelings were arguments.
Obviously if the boss is hitting for infinite damage, EH has 0 value. Luckily, situations like this don't exist in raiding.
Because of the way avoidance works, it only becomes useful if you can reach unreachable amounts of it. Trading EH for 3-4% more avoidance will achieve absolutely nothing but make you more prone to randomly dying. Stamina gems also inherently have more stat value on them compared to other gems because not only is stamina more valuable point for point than parry/dodge/defense but it also comes in 30s instead of 20s and gets multiplied by stamina modifiers. Absolutely 0 reason to match sockets for a tiny bit of extra avoidance.
It's really easy to pick a random item and say that it wont make a difference because you're getting overkilled when you died anyway and there's no way you could've ever lived even with that item but that's completely ignoring all the effects that item had up until your death and the different potentials for overkill at different stages of your HP. It's the same clueless overkill argument used to to discredit Will of the Necropolis.
Except it's impossible to get to 100% hard avoidance, even outside ICC. What a story, Miss.
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Wind of Northrend
I dont know dude...
If u have enough HP and Armor to give Healers fair amount of time to top u off, and to be able survive next 2 hits again, avoidance should be the next best choice since more HP and Armor wont change a thing at that point, aka, they wont push the limit of hits u can receive without getting heals to 3...
This is ofc talking about 1-2 items, when BiS, that can be different, or couple of avoidance gems to match some sockets.
People tanked LoD with 30% buff with all kind of tanks tbh, saying that there is only 1 build that gets the job done is not true.
AGAIN, im not saying: "Go full avoidance" or "Go full ****** mode" when it comes to gear, GO FULL ARMOR AND HP BUILD when it comes to itemisation, thats the best choice for sure, but losing 1-2 items that gives u HP or Armor while having enough alrdy, to get some extra chance to not get hit at all, can save ur life in some cases for sure.
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Member
@DamnOrginial
"What does that have to do with anything? Melee DPS can't stay 15 yrds away from Keleseth and still do DPS. 8yrds Whirlwind/Divine Storm =/= 15 yrds Shadowmourne proc, conflating them doesn't work. I have no idea how someone can have this much trouble with concepts this simple. Then again, you did say you were tired. "
You seem to still have a hard time comprehending this, the dps are going to switch weapons when heading to kele while you will be no where close to kele AKA 15yards+. how are you still not getting this is beyond me.
Your tanking knowledge is very supbar, feels like you do not even know about the unhitable macro.
/script dr=function(x)return 1/(1/16+0.9560/x)end;DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance() +5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962)))
it tells you your current cumulative avoidance, when you hit 102% which is obtainable in game you technically have 100% avoidance. but ofc it doesn't mean you won't get hit.Edited: March 26, 2018
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Field Medic Moderator
Most of the time when people speak about a tank being "unhittable", they are referring to a Warrior or a (most of the time) Paladin. This is because of how much avoidance they get from block and the associated talents (Such as Redoubt procs and Holy Shield).
Accomplishing it on a DK isn't feasible. Which is why the class has access to other tools to make it sturdy.
(Assume this is outside ICC.)
Let me give you an example. My Protection Paladin with a standard EH (armor+stamina) gear set has a total avoidance of 101.06%.
41.52% of that is block chance with Holy Shield active.
Changing over to a (very) similarly geared DK, it is at 61.29%.
Also, +points for Gnimo on his latest post.
This whole "Because of the way avoidance works" talk and then proceeding to comparing stamina to avoidance stats, point for point is silly. Avoidance stats scale due to probability logic and diminishing returns. Every point of avoidance you obtain or take away changes the value of it. Avoidance also being inherently random, in itself, makes it (exceedingly) difficult to compare it with a static stat such as stamina. Stamina is much more straightforward and tangible, so it is often preferred whenever in doubt, to most people. I get that. But you're also basing all of this on logic that is hypothetical. Which coincides with my following point;
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that the tank's life is at risk. Imagine a scenario where the tank, even if only for a moment, is not in any danger of dying. The argument then shifts from these statements to what will be more efficient on healer's mana. Going to an extreme of both avoidance and EH are very rough on healer mana. With high EH and no avoidance, the tank never avoid hits, so the heals will always have to heal the tank. Whereas a tank with high avoidance and low EH will take hits less often, but will require nuke heals to top them off ASAP in the event the tank gets unlucky and is hit twice back-to-back.
Being naive enough to try and claim that avoidance is completely useless and is never better than EH is a silly argument in itself, when you consider that the two almost never compete with each other except in gems and trinkets (emphasis on "almost", because there are choices of bonus armor items vs. non-bonus armor items). Trinkets are often determined in usefulness based on boss mechanics, not because "oh this one has more stamina or whatever stat". For example, Sindragosa's Flawless Fang, while having a pretty large chunk of stamina on it, do you think it would be used so commonly if not for its on-use effect? I rather quite doubt it. Then addressing gems and enchants, if a decision on a handful of gems (let's say 3-5 gems) is going to "make or break" your ability to tank an encounter in ICC with the 30% buff up, then you have bigger problems to address than which gems you should be using. Problems that indicate that the tank, or a healer, or someone else in the party, has trouble with knowing how to play their class or how to do the encounter itself.
If we're talking about specific items in question that, for example, do not have bonus armor on them, then we're talking about differences in specs and preferences. Plenty of people have their opinions and preferences on how to min/max their class. But I feel that should be recognized as the glory of having choices in how to customize a character in this game. Being able to make choices in a game should be part of what makes it fun. Rather than looking up on the internet the 'cookie cutter how to do x y z', which is a lot less fun and enjoyable. Likely the reason Blizzard moved away from this stat paradigm in the first place. At the end of the day, I have seen a non-BiS Protection Paladin without any gems or enchants solo-tank LoD post-Phase 1, and the boss died. Which means this whole discussion boils down to people fighting over their desire to be "right" and everyone else be "wrong". You can be right, or technically right, or however you want to call it, and that's fine. What's not fine is jumping into someone else's guide/thread and telling them that their way of playing the game is wrong when it very obviously works and does get the job done. Playing this game isn't about who is right and who is wrong, but rather what sorts of things you can try out and enjoy and still manage to beat the content in the process.
With that said, this conversation can end, and the derail of the thread can cease so that the thread can be the guide it was intended to be. If you guys want to fight about this, then you are more than welcome to do so on any of the other innumerable threads on the topic in this forum section. It should be acceptable for players to choose to play in an alternative fashion, particularly when the content is being farmed and cutting-edge level of gearing isn't necessary to be a crutch for people (especially with the 30% buff in ICC). Thank you for your time and patience.
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