WotLK human double trinket advantage pvp

[Ostlimpa]

custom changes to the racials won't happen.

What about game changes in cities? I was goin to present the idea of a giant NE-catform statue with a height greater than that of Aldor rise placed near the Flight Master - is this never going to happen? :(

I understand what you are saying, I just do not like that mentality. I have seen multiple opportunities where a BG could actually have been won, but is lost due to people just giving up. You might get honor, but you end up learning nothing.
It's like your car getting a flat tire, then just giving up and taking a uber. I don't get it.

I can agree when you notice people got the gear and skill to turn the game around, however most of the times it happens when people lack gear (speaking of Outland).

[Jakkre]

Tbh, human trinkets have pretty much nothing to do with BGs, most serious premade dps all have double dps trinkets, no matter the race. Getting out of 1 cc every 2 minutes is a lot worse then way more damage in bgs, which is why Humans dont really have any real advantage in bgs (obviously way different in arenas).

Yes, getting out of CC is not so important in BGs but the problem is the 150 less resilience w/o pvp trinket.
Humans have their gear adjusted to double pve trinkets but as horde you become squishy as f*** when u stay with 850 resilience instead of 1k on the battlefield.

[Invictum]

Yes, getting out of CC is not so important in BGs.

Come again?

Maybe if you’re in a premade or unholy DK or any of two prot specs but for anything else means staying alive, usually.

[Topikaa]

Sounds to me like ms. Topikaa plays a human.

I'am playing horde hunter.

Surely you won't believe cause in your little narrow-minded world everyone who does not cry over EMFH is playing human.

[Topikaa]

Yes, getting out of CC is not so important

No wonder why horde so bad outside of premades packed with 10 healers.

Only BG where you should have a 50/50% rate are the 40man ones as most premades dodge those.

Yeah, sure, 40 man battlegrounds is the one option for big premades to fit their asses in alltogether but suddenly they dodge it.

[Ostlimpa]

Surely you won't believe cause in your little narrow-minded world everyone who does not cry over EMFH is playing human.

Careful with your childish gibes now you little ragamuffin. I never said I cried over EMFH and while I agree it is a thorn in the side, there are far worse things that I consider to be in need of adjustments. Not to mention the fact that I no longer play Wotlk, due to a lot of reasons, Outland being one.

[DamnOriginal]

If you remove EMFH, everybody will reroll horde for pvp because their racials will be much better than the alliance ones. Removing all racials could be a solution if you want a custom stuff.

They aren't wrong though.

In the environment where EMFH is nerfed, guess what happens? Horde becomes dominant in PvE and PvP all over again.

You are objectively wrong and we know this because Warmane is running a server where EMFH doesn't exist and Horde racials are even better than they are on Wotlk, yet the faction representation in arena is balanced and not a complete joke like it is on Icecrown. Currently, Outland 2v2 ladder has 26 Alliance teams and 25 Horde teams in top 50. Outland 3v3 ladder currently has a perfect 25/25 split between factions. Meanwhile the situation on Icecrown is 41 Alliance and 9 Horde teams for 2v2 and 38 Alliance and 12 Horde teams for 3v3. How many of those Alliance teams run almost exclusively humans? Almost 100% when not counting classes that can't roll human.

It's very clear that this one racial does nothing but destroy what would be an otherwise extremely well balanced arena ladder and when it's the equivalent of having 8-15 extra racials, it's not difficult to see why. Thinking that without it the Alliance would somehow be at a huge disadvantage in PvP is just demonstrably false. What would actually happen without it is that we would see a far more balanced and diverse arena ladder like the kind Outland has. No other racial in the game is broken enough to crap on faction balance like this.

Overall Horde racials are definitely better for PvE but PvE quality does not directly depend on faction balance like PvP does. The power difference is nowhere even close to being a difference of up to 15 times either. A horde player might enjoy 20 extra spell power or 36 extra haste or 400 more hp in PvE but is that 15 times better than 3% total spirit, 5% total intellect or 26 hit? No, it's not. It's not even close. There is no justification for humans having a racial that is the equivalent of 15 extra racials in PvP just because the Horde is a tiny bit better at PvE. The the marginal advantage Horde racials have in PvE has not completely destroyed the Alliance PvE scene like the human racial has done to the Horde PvP scene on Icecrown because player balance is infinitely more important in PvP and none of the Horde racials come even close to being as broken as EMFH. By leaving EMFH unaddressed for so long, it has created a domino effect on Icecrown where more and more PvPers noticed the huge difference and switched to Alliance, creating a faction representation problem in PvP and since PvP in a faction game depends on its faction balance, this has led to flat out degradation of the overall quality of PvP and the sad situation we see today.

Tbh, human trinkets have pretty much nothing to do with BGs, most serious premade dps all have double dps trinkets, no matter the race. Getting out of 1 cc every 2 minutes is a lot worse then way more damage in bgs, which is why Humans dont really have any real advantage in bgs (obviously way different in arenas).

Another flawed argument that fails to see the larger picture. Do you actually believe funneling most min maxing PvPers to one side has absolutely no effect on the average outcome of random or premade battlegrounds? Having one racial be this broken naturally does this. Most people who are serious about PvP end up rolling Alliance because they have no other choice that comes even close to the power of that racial. When you have one side full of min maxers and the other one not, the win rates will always be in favor of the min maxers. When you remove EMFH from the equation, the min maxing question of "What's best?" becomes far more ambiguous as other racials are far more competitive with one another, which spreads the min maxers more evenly across both factions. Without EMFH, it's no longer min maxers vs regular players, it's a mix of both vs a mix of both.

It's really perplexing because you're apparently fully aware of what I'm saying, judging by this quote:

People roll on the side where its easiest to find teams (for premades or arenas), and the better one side does at that the more people roll there. (which is why you eventually see all serious players on one side).

And yet you somehow cannot connect the dots.

[Skoobydoo]

you guys are overthinking all this and making it way more complicated that it is.the general opinion is Humans are overpowered in PVP,this is going for many years now and people who want to mid max go human,rest of pvp population go alliance,even if they don't care about the racial,because everyone else are alliance and its way more easy to find people to do PVP with.its pretty much snowball effect.as for premade groups,no serious PVP player will ever take random BG seriously and mid max there or give a **** if they lose or win,its all about going to kill people and have fun not def or run a flag.

also if you remove EMFH you have pretty much TBC,where horde population is always been dominating.

[DamnOriginal]

also if you remove EMFH you have pretty much TBC,where horde population is always been dominating.

Yeah, there's no way Alliance can stay competitive without this broken racial...

Spoiler: Show

[Obnoxious]

Yeah, there's no way Alliance can stay competitive without this broken racial...

Spoiler: Show

After we had to basically bribe Horde and new players (who would otherwise have went to the vastly outnumbering faction) to go Alliance with a lot of benefits, and while not allowing the developed characters to transfer to Horde. Unless you have data like this from before that, this isn't all that valid.

[DamnOriginal]

After we had to basically bribe Horde and new players (who would otherwise have went to the vastly outnumbering faction) to go Alliance with a lot of benefits, and while not allowing the developed characters to transfer to Horde. Unless you have data like this from before that, this isn't all that valid.

Oh, would you look at that. You had to introduce a custom change to counteract a faction balance problem which resulted in better balance overall. I can definitely see why you're so reluctant to make any custom changes on icecrown now. I guess 80-90% PvP dominance by just one faction doesn't really matter as long as the overall faction numbers stay equal and the server isn't in danger of flopping at launch.

[Obnoxious]

Oh, would you look at that. You had to introduce a custom change to counteract a faction balance problem which resulted in better balance overall. I can definitely see why you're so reluctant to make any custom changes on icecrown now. I guess 80-90% PvP dominance by just one faction doesn't really matter as long as the overall faction numbers stay equal and the server isn't in danger of flopping at launch.

We introduced external benefits to encourage people to faction change to fix a population imbalance.
We didn't remove or tweak races or classes or abilities to change something some people whine about on a side-activity of the game that doesn't influences the overall population numbers for the server as a whole.

[DamnOriginal]

We introduced external benefits to encourage people to faction change to fix a population imbalance.
We didn't remove or tweak races or classes or abilities to change something some people whine about on a side-activity of the game that doesn't influences the overall population numbers for the game as a whole.

While I'm aware of your personal bias against PvP, I sincerely hope it doesn't extend to the rest of the team. If logical conclusions based on publicly available data are interpreted as whining and PvP treated with the importance of a side activity like fishing then there's not much hope for a better PvP environment on Icecrown.

[Obnoxious]

While I'm aware of your personal bias against PvP, I sincerely hope it doesn't extend to the rest of the team. If logical conclusions based on publicly available data are interpreted as whining and PvP treated with the importance of a side activity like fishing then there's not much hope for a better PvP environment on Icecrown.

PvP is a side-activity. That's not a matter of personal opinion, it's a fact easily verifiable by the ridiculously overwhelming difference in content for PvE and PvP. Denying that is plain and simple showing self-inflicted blindness.

About I calling it whining, it comes from the demonstrated inability to understand Every Man for Himself isn't going to be removed; it isn't going to be tweaked; it isn't going to be replaced. It will stay as it is because that's how the game was in Wrath of the Lich King. This thread is left be on the basis of it being people arguing and theorizing over "what if" scenarios that aren't going to happen.

[Ostlimpa]

When I read all of this, all I can think of is the release of this burden by having Warmane make Outland.
No EMFH, no DK hero class, no death grip, no chains of ice, no endless amount of defense CDs, did I mention no DK hero class?