WotLK human double trinket advantage pvp

[Mercy]

We know 90% of Alliance PvPers are human

Where's your evidence of this? Anecdotal? Don't cite me the arena ladder, because if you're going to try and tell me that represents the entire part of the community that does PvP, I'm going to fall out of my chair.

and we know most PvPers go Alliance because they have no other competitive choice.

Even if it were true that EMFH was so good for DPS specs that it guaranteed a win for those players, it's nearly useless for Disc & Holy Priests and Holydins. It's not even an option for RDruids and RShaman.

How is no choice and piss poor faction balance in PvP fine with top 50 ladder teams in all active brackets being 80-90% Alliance?

TIL Arena rankings was the end-all, be-all of faction balance.
If a racial causes most teams want to choose a certain race/faction, then that's fine, so long as the factions overall reamain balanced in terms of population and activity. Which, aside from the arena ladder you like to cite so much, is pretty well balanced overall.

Why wouldn't a custom change to EMFH achieve anything when it's clear that EMFH is the primary cause of these issues?

What issues? The low representation of Horde in the arena ladder? You don't think that a custom change to the racial could have larger ramifications than the "balance" of the top of the arena ladder? If that's the case, then you're definitely rather short-sighted.

wotf is really strong
orc tenacity is huge, bloodfury is also really big since you can choose when to use it and its a guaranteed ap buff instead of the 66% of kmS that dbw has.
"15 times weaker" ****ing rofl

Arcane Torrent shouldn't be forgotten, either.

I'm assuming you're talking about the orc racial Hardiness when you say tenacity, which isn't anywhere as big as you might think because it's not only a small percentage on a single type of CC but it's also subject to diminishing returns of talents and meta sockets, which usually means that instead of 15%, it averages around 10%. This came up in a different thread but if you actually took a look at the meta sockets the top warriors use on Icecrown and Blackrock, you will notice that they almost exclusively go for 3% crit, not 10% stun reduction, which should give you an idea of how much more impact damage has over the falsely perceived impact of this racial. If there's anything EMFH gives you, it's flexibility and damage.

I'd say you're vastly overestimating how much they care about such a negligible difference in stun DR and damage.
I'd also say you're underestimating the value of the stun CC type.

As for Bloodfury, read what I wrote on page one and feel stupid:

Feel free to explain the downside of having the Orc racials for a spec (RShaman) that would normally use a resilience trinket anyways, nevermind that the spec isn't even an option for Humans.

The conclusion that EMFH is 15 times better than other racials is based on a simple number comparison that even a 12 year old should be able to understand, which is why I have the utmost confidence that you'll manage. It's also accurately reflected by the overwhelming representation of humans at the highest ranks on all active ladders, which is also several times more than any other race.

Perhaps useful in 15 times as many situations? Sure. That doesn't make it 15 times better. How much more useful is EMFH going to be for you when up against a dot cleave like AffLock/SPriest? It's not.
"Oh but it's useful in all these other situations."
But that's not how top-end PvPers min/max. They min/max on a fight-to-fight basis, not trying to grab what is useful against the majority. That's the approach of a BG hero. Especially when in a lot of comps that would be run, half the team doesn't even benefit from EMFH (cough healers).

[Mercy]

TLDR

Every Man for Himself will not be receiving custom changes, regardless of how much you lobby for it. There is far too little to gain for the number of things that it puts at risk.

[Obnoxious]

Pvp is a side-activity of wow on retail, not on private servers. ICC is 9 years old now, woltk pve (as in raids) is super outdated. There are guides to everything, theres very little to discover, nothing to strife for. You get BiS and the endgame is over, pretty much. Theres still a ton to do because its wow, but the real pve (i.e the raids) really isnt the main attraction of private servers wow. Its the experience of old wow (i.e the leveling, the gearing, etc) and the pvp (and the not being able to afford proper wow because you are from albania or something) that draws people.

And yes, more people pve then pvp. But thats because every pvper (that isnt BiS via donations) has to pve at least somewhat, for trinkets at the very least. (but not every pve-er has to pvp)

You can only really consider PVE the main activity on servers that are constantly moving forwards and that need new content. Pvp just needs other people to play.

I disagree (and I will say why), but it's refreshing that you at least can acknowledge PvP for being a side-activity to some extent, even if you are (I believe) a PvPer.

My point wasn't for what server it is or anything like that. I'm talking about the game World of Warcraft itself. As you say, even PvPers will often do some PvE content, while PvErs don't even have to touch it if they don't like, and they will experience just about everything in the game just the same. I'll go as far as say that doing only PvP is ignoring the major portion of the game - which, once again, is completely fine. I'm by no means advocating people should go do PvE if they don't like. All I did was call PvP for what it is in the scope of the game, no matter if retail or private server or backyard home server. How people will use it doesn't changes the nature of the game, is all.

And I'm not even really sure it's different in the private server "scene." I mean, it might be, I don't know, but why would we get so many people complaining about long time for queues, lack of people doing 3v3, not all that many teams competing for 2v2. Should we get any of that if the vast majority of people were here for PvP?

[Ostlimpa]

Every Man for Himself will not be receiving custom changes, regardless of how much you lobby for it. There is far too little to gain for the number of things that it puts at risk.

You gave us Outland and that was probably the best decision Warmane has ever made. It solved the EMFH problem, the DK problem, the hunter problem, the arena problem, the PvE problem and ofc the addiction to achivements! Thank you! =)

[KomodoV01]

You gave us Outland and that was probably the best decision Warmane has ever made. It solved the EMFH problem, the DK problem, the hunter problem, the arena problem, the PvE problem and ofc the addiction to achivements! Thank you! =)

the thing is, there was no problem to begin with

[AluschI]

the difference between passive stats is 14 (167 arp / 153 resil) (dbw hc/medalion)
then you have the 30s duration buff giving 700str/haste/crit, this is the thing that makes people go "ooooh human so op reee" except that the str buff is the only good variation of the proc.

Random procs of dbw is fun in BGs but can be a big disadvantage in arena. Yes DBW can proc str in a good situation or it procs haste in the worst possible situation, let you stay with a long cd. There is a reason why top arena players rely on a trinkets to activate.

check 2v2 pvp ladder in icecrown and you will clearly see that nearly all of the teams in top 100 are alliance, andd nearly all players playing as human race.

Thats only because nearly every serious pvp player is going for human for that tiny advantage. When 90% of all serious pvp players are human you will find the same scale in arena. but that does not tells us that human dominating arena because they are human.

If human was that strong there would have been the same scale on retail back in the days like here on warmane. But retail wotlk arena ladders were dominated by horde.

For warmane: If you do not look close minded at arena ladders you will see that there are not only many humans but nearly every alliance/human comp in top 100 has at least one class that can use SM. On the other hand not a single horde team at the moment in top 50 has a single SM class.
Rerolling human and donating BiS SM class is a easy and fast way to dominate like 70%-90% of warmane player base. One reason why human is so popular.
If i would start playing arena again with the goal to get in the top 100, i would probably choose a comp that has an advantage about SM classes even without beeing BiS yourself.

[Jakkre]

Random procs of dbw is fun in BGs but can be a big disadvantage in arena. Yes DBW can proc str in a good situation or it procs haste in the worst possible situation, let you stay with a long cd. There is a reason why top arena players rely on a trinkets to activate.

Top pvper use DBW hc and StS hc. I have never seen a high rated warrior using a on use trinket.
The blatant advantage of DBW hc + StS hc goes so far that I see Orc warrior in 2s that use this combination over a pvp trinket to brake CC.

If human was that strong there would have been the same scale on retail back in the days like here on warmane. But retail wotlk arena ladders were dominated by horde.

Retail is not stagnant and most ppl back in these days didn't min max their char like here nor were highend HC items so easy to accquire.
Also faction change wasn't used so frequently like here.
Most ppl sticked to the race of their character that they played since vanilla or tbc.

[Skoobydoo]

Random procs of dbw is fun in BGs but can be a big disadvantage in arena. Yes DBW can proc str in a good situation or it procs haste in the worst possible situation, let you stay with a long cd. There is a reason why top arena players rely on a trinkets to activate.

looking at this comment you probable play PVP in MOP or CATA.there is no on use dps trinkets in WOTLK that are even half as good as DWB.also even if you get the worst prock its still 700 extra stats that you have for 30 sec and the trinket only has 90 cd.from cataclysm and above the gameplay in arena change too much people start to use CC setups and then blow all their dmg in CC window thats why they start using on use trinkets,but WOTLK pvp is not as scripted.

If human was that strong there would have been the same scale on retail back in the days like here on warmane. But retail wotlk arena ladders were dominated by horde.
.

well one of the reasons why people didnt swap to alliance was because faction change option didnt exist when WOTLK release it was added later on in the expansion.you was also not able to have alliance and horde on same account.and when this options was finally available half the expansion is over,even if you swap you need to loo for new parthners and new guild,until all your friends and guild also swap with you (like what Method did when they swap from alliance to horde in WOTLK).so people was playing same faction they played in TBC,and in TBC WOTF was just as strong as EMFH since all top comps had fear.

as for warmane i dont understand how can people still compare it to retail.warmane WOTLK lasted way longer then retail WOTLK expansion.players here also have way better gear since they had more time to farm it or buy it.the population overall know very well the benefits from rolling 1 faction/race/class or another.on retail people was playing whatever they was playing in TBC.

about faction balance and EMFH.i honestly cant see problem here.sure alliance dominate top arena ladder but so what?faction dont matter at all for arena queue and from what i see BG queue for alliance is really fast.so what exactly is the balance problem?the way i see it if they remove EMFH or rework it people will have very little to no reason to play alliance and will move horde,like in TBC.

[Mercy]

Retail is not stagnant and most ppl back in these days didn't min max their char like here nor were highend HC items so easy to accquire.

I'd say that while the latter portion of this line is true, the former part of it couldn't possibly be any less true. It is really quite the reverse. The top-end of Warmane's community has nothing on the top-end of retail's. Much of what we have here now was built upon the shoulders of those that came before us.

well one of the reasons why people didnt swap to alliance was because faction change option didnt exist when WOTLK release it was added later on in the expansion.you was also not able to have alliance and horde on same account.and when this options was finally available half the expansion is over,even if you swap you need to loo for new parthners and new guild,until all your friends and guild also swap with you (like what Method did when they swap from alliance to horde in WOTLK).so people was playing same faction they played in TBC,and in TBC WOTF was just as strong as EMFH since all top comps had fear.

I think it's also worth mentioning that a faction change on retail has always been costly for what it does. Meanwhile, here on Warmane, players are able to faction change for free.

[Jakkre]

I'd say that while the latter portion of this line is true, the former part of it couldn't possibly be any less true. It is really quite the reverse. The top-end of Warmane's community has nothing on the top-end of retail's. Much of what we have here now was built upon the shoulders of those that came before us.

I don't say that ppl didn't min max their char back then, my point is that the amount of players that do it is much smaller than nowadays.
Reason for that is that most players didn't had the time to accquire all the gear before newer content was released.

On a stagnant realm like Icecrown everybody who plays on it for some years comes sooner or later to the point where his character is completly BiS geared and his race and professions are all adjusted to give him the most benefit. Thats the reason for the overrepresentation of humans in arena.
On retail such fine tuned characters hardly existed and therefore the retail arena ladder of Wotlk doesn't show us what race performs the best in pvp.

[AluschI]

Top pvper use DBW hc and StS hc. I have never seen a high rated warrior using a on use trinket.
The blatant advantage of DBW hc + StS hc goes so far that I see Orc warrior in 2s that use this combination over a pvp trinket to brake CC.

"Top" pvper on warmane do this, this has a reason: it works for many opponents. Top pvper should know how to handle someone who rely on a random proc. If sacrifice a pvp trinket over two proc trinkets works on warmane, that does not mean it is a good choice, it simply means that your opponents do not know you, yourplaystyle and how to beat it. That is a complitly different situation to retail top arena gameplay.

looking at this comment you probable play PVP in MOP or CATA.there is no on use dps trinkets in WOTLK that are even half as good as DWB.also even if you get the worst prock its still 700 extra stats that you have for 30 sec and the trinket only has 90 cd.from cataclysm and above the gameplay in arena change too much people start to use CC setups and then blow all their dmg in CC window thats why they start using on use trinkets,but WOTLK pvp is not as scripted.

Dont know what you are talking about... First 700 haste is not compareable with atp activ and even if you get 700 str and you cannot controle your enemy in this critical 30sec(missing cds), the enemy controles you if skilled. Second, real top wotlk pvp was all about cc and timing, heal/dd mirror matches were very long games over 30 mins where tiny mistakes had to be used right in time.
But again, bursting through half BiS geared people with a SM BiS gear comp is a warmane thing to slowly get the rating up. That is not realy top pvp if you ask me.

[Jakkre]

"Top" pvper on warmane do this, this has a reason: it works for many opponents. Top pvper should know how to handle someone who rely on a random proc. If sacrifice a pvp trinket over two proc trinkets works on warmane, that does not mean it is a good choice, it simply means that your opponents do not know you, yourplaystyle and how to beat it.

First of all, u don't sacrifice anything when u take a pve trinket over the pvp trinket as a human. Even w/o taking the proc effect into account the pve trinket has higher base stats than the pvp trinket.
Second, top rated arena players on retail used proc trinkets such as DBW when they were able to get them.
The only "on use" trinket that is considered strong is bauble of true blood.

That is a complitly different situation to retail top arena gameplay.

Many of the top rated retail arena players also played on Arena-tournament and they fine tuned their character there much more than back on retail.
For obvious reason they all roll human when the class allows it and they all use proc trinkets.

[Skoobydoo]

Dont know what you are talking about... First 700 haste is not compareable with atp activ and even if you get 700 str and you cannot controle your enemy in this critical 30sec(missing cds), the enemy controles you if skilled. Second, real top wotlk pvp was all about cc and timing, heal/dd mirror matches were very long games over 30 mins where tiny mistakes had to be used right in time.
But again, bursting through half BiS geared people with a SM BiS gear comp is a warmane thing to slowly get the rating up. That is not realy top pvp if you ask me.

and may i ask what trinket on use can replace DBW?pls do give us example.

[Frostwolf011]

Even if it were true that EMFH was so good for DPS specs that it guaranteed a win for those players, it's nearly useless for Disc & Holy Priests and Holydins. It's not even an option for RDruids and RShaman.

I'm sorry but WTF!? Resto specs aside, but since when and in what universe is having solace/BOTB worse than PVP trinket/BOTB??? You are seriously telling me that168sp and 144mp5 are worse than 154 resilience and WoF/AT. You an easily get 154 resilience from gems and enchants, but getting that much sp and mp5 together is near impossible.

Perhaps useful in 15 times as many situations? Sure. That doesn't make it 15 times better. How much more useful is EMFH going to be for you when up against a dot cleave like AffLock/SPriest? It's not.

2s or 3s? Because in theory shadow play is excellent, but in practice they are extremely vulnerable and are hard countered by plenty of comps.

"Oh but it's useful in all these other situations."

Double trinket is better for all dps classes and better for healers in healer/dps vs healer/dps situations. So basically almost all situations, because If a double dps comp times their cc chains, WotF won't do you much good because the fight will be over in 30 seconds.

But that's not how top-end PvPers min/max. They min/max on a fight-to-fight basis,

If they need more resil they won't change factions, they will just swap gear because in the end double trinket proc burst is still more valuable than WotF/AT/BF.

[Ostlimpa]

the thing is, there was no problem to begin with

Oh certainly not, it was just the most grand problem WoW had ever seen in its lifetime, even surpassing that of flying mounts.