1. About DK Tanking in lordaeron

    i read some "old" topics and looks like there is a general idea around feral and prot paladin be the only relevant tanks

    is that true ? is more difficult to get a spot as a dk?

    Also is viable leveling through tanking dungeons with this class?

  2. Advantages Bears and Pallies have over DKs:

    - Both can be specced to be fully self-sufficient when it comes to bringing Attack Power debuffs on enemy bosses. Death Knights are the only tanks who don't have this capability.
    - Physical damage they take is more frequently mitigated because they're both blockers. People tend to be ignorant to the potency of blocking. Even a 2.5k block is more than 6.25% of a 40k Lich King swing. Death Knights have self-healing tools in place of blocking.
    - Death Knights have the lowest tank DPS of any tanking class. This gap is fairly significant, and isn't overcome by Hysteria either. On progression encounters where every point of extra DPS is necessary, this might be something to keep in mind.

    It's probably some combination of the above. The Bear + Prot Pala line-up is one of the most time-tested tanking duos of this patch, so it makes sense Lord guilds would favour these.

    You can level through dungeons on any tank. For the most part you really shouldn't have trouble finding groups as a DK.

  3. - Death Knights have the lowest tank DPS of any tanking class. This gap is fairly significant, and isn't overcome by Hysteria either. On progression encounters where every point of extra DPS is necessary, this might be something to keep in mind.
    Since when is DK Tank DPS that bad, that this would be a reason not to use them? It is more like that DKs are in favour if a raids DPS is that great, that a tank with max aggro is needed.

    In terms of Lordaeron with bosses hitting harder, the HP pool of druids and the ardent defender of pala are probably the saver way.

  4. When you're undergeared and racing against a tight enrage timer, an extra 2k raid DPS might be what makes the difference between a wipe or a kill. It's not a major deciding factor by itself, but it's one of several considerations that are relevant. I said as much in the next sentence.

    Blood DKs are on par with Bears and Prot Palas when it comes to EHP. The block capability is one of the main things that differentiates a Bear and a Blood DK (among other things). Blood DK physical EH actually isn't too far behind Bears.

  5. Blood DK physical EH actually isn't too far behind Bears.
    True, if a bear is gemming arp. If we only look at EHP, skipping everything else, both DK and Pala are far behind Bears. Maintaining the same armor value, bears are easily 10k - 20k HP ahead. Sure DK, with CDs and all, is on the same level as Pala and Bears.

  6. Since this needs to be spelled out, when I talk about Pally and Blood DK EHP, I'm factoring in Ardent Defender and Will of the Necropolis, since those are essentially passive EHP buffs.

  7. Since this needs to be spelled out, when I talk about Pally and Blood DK EHP, I'm factoring in Ardent Defender and Will of the Necropolis, since those are essentially passive EHP buffs.
    So? Both Ardent Defender and Will of the Necropolis are not going to improve EHP to match Bears anyway. Overall mitigation of AD and WotN is very minimal on paper and sometimes not even toucht in game. For a non fatel blow that reach 35% mark, mitigation is far less than 5k dmg, Bear is still ahead with 15k flat HP everytime and not for a few hits.

  8. It doesn't matter how frequently those damage reduction effects get tapped into. You're appraising the talents from the wrong angle and your comparison example leaves a lot to be desired.

    The Bear is only 15k ahead when you neglect to take into account that the last 35% of a Pally's/Dk's health pool is substantially increased in value. For EH comparison purposes it doesn't matter whether the damage reduction offered by AD/WotN actually comes into play.

  9. Advantages Bears and Pallies have over DKs:

    [...]
    - Physical damage they take is more frequently mitigated because they're both blockers. People tend to be ignorant to the potency of blocking. Even a 2.5k block is more than 6.25% of a 40k Lich King swing. Death Knights have self-healing tools in place of blocking.
    Blood DKs are on par with Bears and Prot Palas when it comes to EHP. The block capability is one of the main things that differentiates a Bear and a Blood DK (among other things). Blood DK physical EH actually isn't too far behind Bears.
    I was sure Druids can't block. They don't use shields. Would you explain what you mean here?
    - Death Knights have the lowest tank DPS of any tanking class. This gap is fairly significant, and isn't overcome by Hysteria either. On progression encounters where every point of extra DPS is necessary, this might be something to keep in mind.
    Even though Death Knights have access to the strongest area damage potential?
    It's probably some combination of the above. The Bear + Prot Pala line-up is one of the most time-tested tanking duos of this patch, so it makes sense Lord guilds would favour these.
    Any competent progress guild would have multiple raid comp setups (tanks are included, but applies to the entire comp) ready to go on a per-boss basis. This is the main reason why most top progress guilds that have existed on live have a "bench" and often require every player to have multiple characters ready to go. If you have access to other tanks that perform better on specific boss fights, you should use them. Paladin + Bear may be a good 'staple' or go-to comp, but it's important to note that it isn't the best at everything in every situation. Quite far from it, in fact.
    Since this needs to be spelled out, when I talk about Pally and Blood DK EHP, I'm factoring in Ardent Defender and Will of the Necropolis, since those are essentially passive EHP buffs.
    Doesn't apply in every case though. Hits at 36% don't factor the talents in. Which is why Ardent was (is) regarded as the vastly superior talent.
    Both talents are a healer crutch in any case, though, and aren't always needed. And if they are, then either the boss is a tough pickle, or the healers are in need of that crutch (or perhaps both).

  10. I was sure Druids can't block. They don't use shields. Would you explain what you mean here?
    Savage Defense is basically a block mechanic and is extremely reliable due to the high amount of crit and AP bears have.

  11. Okay, I can get behind that. But I also think it's best to not oversimplify it because they function very differently.

  12. Hits at 36% don't factor the talents in.
    Im sorry if I missunderstood this, but you are saying if you take dmg while you are 36% hp WoTN and Argent wont reduce dmg?

  13. But I also think it's best to not oversimplify it because they function very differently.
    The end result is more or less the same (SD would be more reliable if anything) and we do need to simplify things somehow in order to compare the two (three) classes.

  14. Any competent progress guild would have multiple raid comp setups (tanks are included, but applies to the entire comp) ready to go on a per-boss basis. This is the main reason why most top progress guilds that have existed on live have a "bench" and often require every player to have multiple characters ready to go. If you have access to other tanks that perform better on specific boss fights, you should use them. Paladin + Bear may be a good 'staple' or go-to comp, but it's important to note that it isn't the best at everything in every situation. Quite far from it, in fact.
    Any competent progress guild are or were using a fix setup to progress, rather than mixing around. In ICC the only encounter you want to setup your raid for is LOD, 11/12 HC is pretty much free loot with a LOD ready setup and there is no need to switch. Only thing to look at, is some heal off spec for Vala. Having a stable raid group with loot council has more value than switching around for minor improvements.

    Beating the clock is the only situation where min/max is realy usefull.


    Im sorry if I missunderstood this, but you are saying if you take dmg while you are 36% hp WoTN and Argent wont reduce dmg?
    WoTN and Argent is only activ if dmg drops a tank down under 35,01% and dmg reduction is only done to the dmg that drops you down 35%.

  15. Doesn't apply in every case though. Hits at 36% don't factor the talents in. Which is why Ardent was (is) regarded as the vastly superior talent. Both talents are a healer crutch in any case, though, and aren't always needed. And if they are, then either the boss is a tough pickle, or the healers are in need of that crutch (or perhaps both).
    Im sorry if I missunderstood this, but you are saying if you take dmg while you are 36% hp WoTN and Argent wont reduce dmg?
    Mercy has some very questionable ideas of how tanking works that don't always cross paths with reality. Better not to dwell on it. For the purposes of not confusing anyone new to this, what Mercy said isn't true. Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender work in the same simple way, they reduce any damage to the last 35% of your health. That is to say, if you take a hit at 36% health, the first 1% of health damage will be unmitigated, everything else will be. The reason Ardent Defender is superior has nothing to do with Will of the Necropolis working differently as both talents work the same way, it's just superior because it's literally a superior version of Will of the Necropolis with an extra 5% mitigation and an AFK cooldown. These talents are just pure EHP and calling them a "healer crutch" is the equivalent of calling EHP a "healer crutch", which is just bizarre, considering stacking EHP is by far the most safe and therefore most effective way to tank in this patch.

    Regarding OP's question, yes it is possible for you to have a harder time getting into groups as a DK tank. The issue with the public perception of DKs as tanks is that their survivability varies the most out of any of the tanks due to the nature of their healing mechanics requiring more involvement on the player's side than the block equivalents of other tanks (yes, Savage Defense is for all intents and purposes block when it comes to 1 target, which is what most bosses are). The divide between a good Blood DK and a bad one is far greater than that of good/bad bears and paladins in terms of their personal survivability. If a raid leader is forced to choose between a bear/paladin and a DK tank (raid comp aside), none of which they've raided with before, they will most likely choose the player with the safer and less involved class, as again, safer translates to more effective when you can't really vouch for one player or the other. That's not to say DKs aren't a category of their own as their second highest EHP, best cooldowns and massive burst healing actually exceed the survivability of other tanks during damage spikes, which makes them very well suited for dealing with spiky fights like Sindragosa and Lich King. You're just gonna have to work for your value while the bear/paladin get it passively. One saving grace is that the potential for value of Death Strike is times more than that of block in capable hands.
    Edited: June 20, 2018

12 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •