1. 3 Weeks Ago  
    The end result is more or less the same (SD would be more reliable if anything) and we do need to simplify things somehow in order to compare the two (three) classes.
    To a degree, that's fine. But on this particular point, I'm going to have to disagree. The Druid mechanic can affect one hit per crit. Block isn't limited by that, and it is a disservice to the block tanks to clump them together. You can categorize them together, I suppose, but equating them to being exactly the same will cause misunderstandings and misconceptions.
    The reason Ardent Defender is superior has nothing to do with Will of the Necropolis working differently as both talents work the same way, it's just superior because it's literally a superior version of Will of the Necropolis with an extra 5% mitigation and an AFK cooldown.
    So you tack on "and an AFK cooldown", but deny that Ardent Defender has no function to it that is different from Will of the Necropolis.
    O.K.

    Mercy has some very questionable ideas of how tanking works that don't always cross paths with reality. Better not to dwell on it. For the purposes of not confusing anyone new to this, what Mercy said isn't true. Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender work in the same simple way, they reduce any damage to the last 35% of your health. That is to say, if you take a hit at 36% health, the first 1% of health damage will be unmitigated, everything else will be.
    Oh?
    Well, I'd be happy to see some documentation of this from live and evidence that it functions on Icecrown in the same way. I'm always happy to learn new things. Usually that's the purpose of discussion and the exchanging of ideas.
    p.s. It'd probably be in your best interest to keep the ad-hominem to yourself.

    These talents are just pure EHP and calling them a "healer crutch" is the equivalent of calling EHP a "healer crutch", which is just bizarre, considering stacking EHP is by far the most safe and therefore most effective way to tank in this patch.
    Yes. That's what they are. Claiming that enhancing EHP doesn't serve as a crutch to healers, regardless of the fashion, is to ignore how enhanced EHP affects healers. Unless... surely you don't think Protection Paladins and Druids are chosen above Blood DKs when necessary for bosses that hit hard in melee because of their damage output or their raid buffs?

    Back to the point, though. Yes, Ardent and Will of the Necropolis are healer crutches. Next up, you're going to tell me why some tanks shouldn't use damage-increase item and talent setups for farm content.

    Regarding OP's question, yes it is possible for you to have a harder time getting into groups as a DK tank. The issue with the public perception of DKs as tanks is that their survivability varies the most out of any of the tanks due to the nature of their healing mechanics requiring more involvement on the player's side than the block equivalents of other tanks (yes, Savage Defense is for all intents and purposes block when it comes to 1 target, which is what most bosses are). The divide between a good Blood DK and a bad one is far greater than that of good/bad bears and paladins in terms of their personal survivability. If a raid leader is forced to choose between a bear/paladin and a DK tank (raid comp aside), none of which they've raided with before, they will most likely choose the player with the safer and less involved class, as again, safer translates to more effective when you can't really vouch for one player or the other. That's not to say DKs aren't a category of their own as their second highest EHP, best cooldowns and massive burst healing actually exceed the survivability of other tanks during damage spikes, which makes them very well suited for dealing with spiky fights like Sindragosa and Lich King. You're just gonna have to work for your value while the bear/paladin get it passively. One saving grace is that the potential for value of Death Strike is times more than that of block in capable hands.
    After reading this whole paragraph, I couldn't help but think about Warriors and why you left them out. Or both other DK tanking specializations. But I think we all know why.
    But to address some of your points;
    If I were a raid leader forced to choose between tanks, raid composition not withstanding, none of which I've raided with before - honestly, I don't think I'd give a rat's backside, because I wouldn't be pugging a tank for content where the tank choice would actually matter.

    That's not to say DKs aren't a category of their own as their second highest EHP, best cooldowns and massive burst healing actually exceed the survivability of other tanks during damage spikes, which makes them very well suited for dealing with spiky fights like Sindragosa and Lich King.
    Best cooldowns? Last I checked, Paladins had the most powerful cooldowns. Unless you're talking about excess of cooldowns, which even then is not a Blood DK.
    DKs best suited for spiky fights like Sindragosa and Lich King? Sindragosa, sure, because DKs are wonderful at mitigating magic damage. But Lich King? Not so much. Now that you mention it, weren't other people in this thread discussing why Paladins and Druids chosen over DKs for progress, and that fight in particular? In fact, wasn't that the comp for world first (no-buff) Light of Dawn? Do you think they chose those tanks because of their damage output or their raid buffs?

    Surely I don't need to pull up a bunch of examples to illustrate to you why tank/healer/boss interactions and "crutches" are important on progress, but not necessary for farm? Perhaps I should use the term "training wheels" instead of "crutch" and you'd get upset a little less?

  2. 3 Weeks Ago  
    Any competent progress guild are or were using a fix setup to progress, rather than mixing around. In ICC the only encounter you want to setup your raid for is LOD, 11/12 HC is pretty much free loot with a LOD ready setup and there is no need to switch. Only thing to look at, is some heal off spec for Vala. Having a stable raid group with loot council has more value than switching around for minor improvements.

    Beating the clock is the only situation where min/max is realy usefull.
    On a private server, a full decade after the content's initial release, sure thing. But back when it was cutting edge? Only when the encounters turned out to be a breeze. You don't think the "clock" was an issue in a no-buff ICC environment when most players were in T9 and non-heroic ICC gear from early bosses?
    Also, why wouldn't it be useful to min/max tanks and healers so the healers can spend more time raid healing and potentially allowing you to drop healers for another dps or two? How many bosses do you think Paragon did with 3 or 4 healers? How many of those bosses do you think they kept the same number of healers for the entire progress on those bosses? How many bosses in ICC do you think were popularly done with only 2 tanks?

  3. 3 Weeks Ago  
    On a private server, a full decade after the content's initial release, sure thing. But back when it was cutting edge? Only when the encounters turned out to be a breeze. You don't think the "clock" was an issue in a no-buff ICC environment when most players were in T9 and non-heroic ICC gear from early bosses?
    It wasn´t any different in retail especialy for ICC. As we all know, ICC was opened wing after wing each month. Real progress guilds that try to rush an encounter where equiped with nearly bis 9,5 items, thats at least equal with icc25 nh and over geared for icc 10 nh. The real difference between a privat server and retail was that progress guilds first stepped in icc with much higher gear than on a pserver.

    Also, why wouldn't it be useful to min/max tanks and healers so the healers can spend more time raid healing and potentially allowing you to drop healers for another dps or two?
    Why would you make a fight much more unsave if time is not an issue?


    How many bosses do you think Paragon did with 3 or 4 healers? How many of those bosses do you think they kept the same number of healers for the entire progress on those bosses? How many bosses in ICC do you think were popularly done with only 2 tanks?
    What do you want to prove here? That a guild that had more than one raid already nearly bis geared while stepping in ICC the first time, using advanced tactics, not for the simple task to progress but the archiv as much first kills as possible, is surprisingly not rely to basic and most save tactics? progress guilds do not showed up with a bush of 4k GS players, they came with a lot of chars being nearly bis geared for T 9,5 hc.
    Sure Paragon did not used a 2 tanks and 5 heals for every fight, but that was only for the rush for first kills.

  4. 3 Weeks Ago  
    So you tack on "and an AFK cooldown", but deny that Ardent Defender has no function to it that is different from Will of the Necropolis.
    O.K.
    No, I was denying a difference in the mechanics of the damage reduction that somehow makes Ardent Defender better. Both of these talents are supposed to behave in the same manner. The reason Ardent Defender is better isn't because of any such differences but rather because it's just numerically better and has a secondary effect.

    Oh?
    Well, I'd be happy to see some documentation of this from live and evidence that it functions on Icecrown in the same way. I'm always happy to learn new things. Usually that's the purpose of discussion and the exchanging of ideas.
    "Patch 3.2.0 (04-Aug-2009): Redesigned. Any damage that takes the paladin below 35% health is reduced. This reduction applies only to the portion that pushes the paladin below 35% health (example: a paladin at 50% health takes a 40% hit; the first 15% hits as normal while the next 25% is reduced)."

    I did some basic testing on Icecrown and concluded that Ardent Defender works exactly like it's described in these patch notes. Will of the Necropolis on the other hand seems to be a one time 15% reduction to the entire hit that resets once you reach 35% or above again, which actually makes it better.

    Yes. That's what they are. Claiming that enhancing EHP doesn't serve as a crutch to healers, regardless of the fashion, is to ignore how enhanced EHP affects healers. Unless... surely you don't think Protection Paladins and Druids are chosen above Blood DKs when necessary for bosses that hit hard in melee because of their damage output or their raid buffs?

    Back to the point, though. Yes, Ardent and Will of the Necropolis are healer crutches. Next up, you're going to tell me why some tanks shouldn't use damage-increase item and talent setups for farm content.
    No idea what your point even is. Are all upgrades now a crutch because they make success more likely? Are tank talents a crutch for the tank because they help him succeed in his given role? Are healer talents the same? DPS? Gear? Raid composition? Is being good at this game a crutch? What about using a mouse with extra buttons? Reading guides? More like reading your disability benefits. Is yelling "Charge!" in a raid full of crutches offensive? So many questions.

    After reading this whole paragraph, I couldn't help but think about Warriors and why you left them out. Or both other DK tanking specializations. But I think we all know why.
    It's pretty self explanatory. Warriors are objectively the weakest tank and the other two specs are inferior to Blood in raid tanking. If you want to compete against bears/paladins, you will be playing Blood.

    But to address some of your points;
    If I were a raid leader forced to choose between tanks, raid composition not withstanding, none of which I've raided with before - honestly, I don't think I'd give a rat's backside, because I wouldn't be pugging a tank for content where the tank choice would actually matter.
    I mean, ok? That doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do in fact pug relevant content and tank choice matters to their success. OP will most likely encounter these people while gearing up, hence why I mentioned it.

    Best cooldowns? Last I checked, Paladins had the most powerful cooldowns. Unless you're talking about excess of cooldowns, which even then is not a Blood DK.
    Here's a comparison between the different tanking cooldowns. DK cds are effective and very low on downtime. Paladin cooldowns are gimmicky with very long downtimes. Vampiric Blood alone is worth more than their Divine Guardian, T10 bonus and Hand of Salvation combined. Ardent Defender is good but if you're using it as a cooldown and not anti wipe protection, you're just an inferior DK.

    DKs best suited for spiky fights like Sindragosa and Lich King? Sindragosa, sure, because DKs are wonderful at mitigating magic damage. But Lich King? Not so much. Now that you mention it, weren't other people in this thread discussing why Paladins and Druids chosen over DKs for progress, and that fight in particular? In fact, wasn't that the comp for world first (no-buff) Light of Dawn? Do you think they chose those tanks because of their damage output or their raid buffs?
    They chose bear/paladin because it's the safest option, as they should have. No idea what relevancy this has for the potential of DKs on the fight. I didn't call them the best on these fights, just potentially more effective than other tanks when played right. On average bear/paladin tanks will perform better because of their lower reliance on personal skill and thus reduced risk of errors.

    Surely I don't need to pull up a bunch of examples to illustrate to you why tank/healer/boss interactions and "crutches" are important on progress, but not necessary for farm? Perhaps I should use the term "training wheels" instead of "crutch" and you'd get upset a little less?
    Oh good, they have wheelchairs now. Maybe now we'll finally get to LK by the end of this Summer.

  5. 3 Weeks Ago  
    No, I was denying a difference in the mechanics of the damage reduction that somehow makes Ardent Defender better. Both of these talents are supposed to behave in the same manner. The reason Ardent Defender is better isn't because of any such differences but rather because it's just numerically better and has a secondary effect.
    Except that I didn't say the difference in damage reductions makes Ardent better. In fact, I pointed out the fact that Ardent not being just a damage reduction is why Ardent is better. I thought that was pretty straightforward.

    I did some basic testing on Icecrown and concluded that Ardent Defender works exactly like it's described in these patch notes.
    Oh, really? You're sure it works *exactly* that way? No issues with it at all?

    No idea what your point even is. Are all upgrades now a crutch because they make success more likely? Are tank talents a crutch for the tank because they help him succeed in his given role? Are healer talents the same? DPS? Gear? Raid composition? Is being good at this game a crutch? What about using a mouse with extra buttons? Reading guides? More like reading your disability benefits. Is yelling "Charge!" in a raid full of crutches offensive? So many questions.
    Um, duh? What do you think crutches are? Clearly they aren't there to hinder the player?

    It's pretty self explanatory. Warriors are objectively the weakest tank and the other two specs are inferior to Blood in raid tanking. If you want to compete against bears/paladins, you will be playing Blood.
    So they aren't worth mentioning at all, then?

    I mean, ok? That doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do in fact pug relevant content and tank choice matters to their success. OP will most likely encounter these people while gearing up, hence why I mentioned it.
    It doesn't really matter though. Doing this is not really any different than using gearscore. It's a metric that only outlines potential. The likelihood of getting someone that is actually competent doesn't improve. A Paladin, for example, may have a few more minor safety nets than a DK or a Warrior, but none of those are going to save you from an incompetent player.

    Here's a comparison between the different tanking cooldowns. DK cds are effective and very low on downtime. Paladin cooldowns are gimmicky with very long downtimes. Vampiric Blood alone is worth more than their Divine Guardian, T10 bonus and Hand of Salvation combined. Ardent Defender is good but if you're using it as a cooldown and not anti wipe protection, you're just an inferior DK.
    Except that it doesn't work that way. Stacking 3 CDs just because you want to match the power of some other CD is arbitrary and irrelevant to boss mechanics.

    They chose bear/paladin because it's the safest option, as they should have. No idea what relevancy this has for the potential of DKs on the fight. I didn't call them the best on these fights, just potentially more effective than other tanks when played right. On average bear/paladin tanks will perform better because of their lower reliance on personal skill and thus reduced risk of errors.
    DKs are not the "safest option", but you don't have any idea why that's relevant to a DK?
    Your "on average" figure only works out if you're dealing with average players. Last I checked, the other comments in the thread were addressing why those were the preferred tank choices at the top tier of players on the server. Perhaps the top tier discussion and the average joe is indistinguishable by the OP, but that doesn't mean that is where the conversation was aimed.

    Oh good, they have wheelchairs now. Maybe now we'll finally get to LK by the end of this Summer.
    We? Seems to me you're the one that gives a damn about word usage. It's nice to know that you think it's important enough to focus part of your comments on it. That's not what this discussion was about, though. It's about what people think of tank classes, not what people think of "Mercy's vocabulary choices".

  6. 3 Weeks Ago  
    It wasn´t any different in retail especialy for ICC.
    Really? Why would you think that?
    As we all know, ICC was opened wing after wing each month. Real progress guilds that try to rush an encounter where equiped with nearly bis 9,5 items, thats at least equal with icc25 nh and over geared for icc 10 nh. The real difference between a privat server and retail was that progress guilds first stepped in icc with much higher gear than on a pserver.
    Last I checked, there were people going into ICC for the first time with donated Lich King weapons and Ruby Sanctum trinkets, and some that are even complete "BiS". Donating for gear, as I'm sure you're well aware, wasn't a thing on Live. There are only a handful of guilds who have finished LoD with no 30% buff on here, and the progress on Lordaeron was the closest thing to have ever existed on Warmane to Live progress. Feel free to show me any guild that is doing progress on no-buff LoD without heroic Lich King weapons or RS items right now. When you show me that, I'll tell you that doesn't represent the remaining 99.99% of the community.

    Why would you make a fight much more unsave if time is not an issue?
    I think you should ask the overwhelming majority of guilds on Icecrown that farm ICC why they prefer a 4 healer comp. Unless you think 4 or less healers is the proper healer comp for doing progress. (It's not.)

    What do you want to prove here? That a guild that had more than one raid already nearly bis geared while stepping in ICC the first time, using advanced tactics, not for the simple task to progress but the archiv as much first kills as possible, is surprisingly not rely to basic and most save tactics? progress guilds do not showed up with a bush of 4k GS players, they came with a lot of chars being nearly bis geared for T 9,5 hc.
    Sure Paragon did not used a 2 tanks and 5 heals for every fight, but that was only for the rush for first kills.
    What do I want to prove? That min/max isn't just useful for "beating the clock". That it's also useful for making fights more safe and reliable to finish. And that tweaking raid composition on a per-fight basis aims to accomplish the same thing.

    Believe it or not, if you're finishing ICC within one or maybe two raid nights, then that's "farming". Wiping on the same boss hundreds of times (of which, the vast majority of players here do not have the patience for), trying to figure out itemization and raid composition nuances, is the essence of "progress raiding".

  7. 3 Weeks Ago  
    Oh, really? You're sure it works *exactly* that way? No issues with it at all?
    Yes. Ardent Defender works fine. WotN is bugged in a way that makes it better for raids and worse for everything else.

    Um, duh? What do you think crutches are? Clearly they aren't there to hinder the player?
    I don't know, I can't remember the last time someone bragged about the mobility of crutches.

    It doesn't really matter though. Doing this is not really any different than using gearscore. It's a metric that only outlines potential. The likelihood of getting someone that is actually competent doesn't improve. A Paladin, for example, may have a few more minor safety nets than a DK or a Warrior, but none of those are going to save you from an incompetent player.
    Higher gearscore people will on average perform better than lower gearscore people. It's that simple. Just like paladins will on average perform better than DKs because they're more foolproof. People develop these biases because they work in practice.

    Except that it doesn't work that way. Stacking 3 CDs just because you want to match the power of some other CD is arbitrary and irrelevant to boss mechanics.
    Just compare them side by side, it's pretty obvious which ones are better.

    Icebound Fortitude = Divine Protection
    Glyphed Hand of Salvation vs Vampiric Blood - 20% damage reduction for 10 secs on a 2 min cd vs 15% extra health and 35% more healing for 15 secs on a 1 min cd. No contest
    Divine Guardian vs Anti-Magic Shell - 20% damage reduction for 6 secs on a 2 min cd vs 75% less spell damage for 5 secs on a 45 sec cd, as well as debuff protection. No contest again
    T10 - 12% dodge vs 12% damage reduction. No contest.

    Paladin cooldowns are just weak with heavy downtime while DK cooldowns are not only stronger but also have much less downtime.

    DKs are not the "safest option", but you don't have any idea why that's relevant to a DK?
    Your "on average" figure only works out if you're dealing with average players. Last I checked, the other comments in the thread were addressing why those were the preferred tank choices at the top tier of players on the server. Perhaps the top tier discussion and the average joe is indistinguishable by the OP, but that doesn't mean that is where the conversation was aimed.
    It's not relevant to what I was saying, which is that DKs have the potential to outperform other tanks in terms of survivability on LK. I never claimed they were the safest choice, in fact I specifically stated the opposite and that over the course of multiple runs their performance will vary more than that of paladins/bears, encompassing both the best and the worst tank moments. If you think top players don't deal with averages, you are sorely mistaken. Even top players aren't machines, they make plenty of mistakes. This is why they stick to the most consistent choices and not the ones with the most theoretical potential.
    Edited: 3 Weeks Ago

  8. 3 Weeks Ago  
    I think you should ask the overwhelming majority of guilds on Icecrown that farm ICC why they prefer a 4 healer comp. Unless you think 4 or less healers is the proper healer comp for doing progress. (It's not.)
    You answered yourself, they are not progressing, they farm and that being overgeared. Using less healers to have more dps has nothing to do with progression, at this point the content is on farm and to min/max dps is only to crunch down the time needed to clear ICC for the 123325435x time. That has nothing to do with progression, being short on gear.

    What do I want to prove? That min/max isn't just useful for "beating the clock". That it's also useful for making fights more safe and reliable to finish. And that tweaking raid composition on a per-fight basis aims to accomplish the same thing.
    Changing multiple char pre pull to min/max while you easily beat the boss with your LOD setup is jsut wasting time. Need to change and to have multiple geared chars in the backend that all waste their IDs on one raid is pure bull**** for progression. If you progress you want to equip your raid as fast as possible, not wasting IDs for minor improvements, not spreading gear over 100 char instead of 25 LOD setup.

    Believe it or not, if you're finishing ICC within one or maybe two raid nights, then that's "farming". Wiping on the same boss hundreds of times (of which, the vast majority of players here do not have the patience for), trying to figure out itemization and raid composition nuances, is the essence of "progress raiding".
    The only thing you are right about progress raiding is the wiping part and the only reason for that is the missing knowledge about boss mechanics. itemization and raid composition nuances is not part of it. You want a good raid comp that is able to beat every boss, the only hard thing is learning mechanics without having access to guides or DBM. What you do not want is to waste IDs on multiple twinks or force guild members to attend a raid for only one boss, wasting IDs, leaving them undergeared.

    I was part of a raid guild that had most realm first kills from vanilla to wotlk, we were not at the top world wide but still fast enouph to beat bosses before guides appear. First priority was always to have a strong core raid with skilled players and geared chars. Switching chars/players only to have the 100% perfect setup for one boss and not a 90% one was never a thing. The one time we switched chars for one boss was 4 horsemen vanilla.

    Having the perfect setup is way less important than having a skilled core raid with the best possible gear. Giving gear to classes and people who make the most out of it was key, and not switching someone because he does not match the perfect setup for one situation.

  9. 3 Weeks Ago  
    To put it simple...

    Bear, Feral Druid, is the best Main tank when u want safety.
    It is reliable and it doesnt require a lot of skill to survive.
    When BiS, combining Barkskin with Enrage and Sindra Trinket for 1st, 3rd and 5th Reaper, Survival Instincts for 2nd, Frenzied Regeneration Glyphed with ToC 25m HC Trinket for 4th with posible Hand of Sac from a Paladin.
    Maintaining aggro is also simple, since u just have to do FF and Mangle off CD with a spam of Lecerate and/or Swipe.
    Keep Demo Roar on the target and you are good...

    Prot Paladin is the best off Tank, duo to a lot of suportive spells for both Main Tank and the Raid (If specced right).
    When it comes to Main Tanking, Paladin Lacks personal Cooldowns since the couple he has have a long downtime, aka Cooldown.
    So, paladin can tank one or two Soul Reapers every 2min which is more than enough for an offtank.
    When it comes to aggro, just spam Hammer and Shield of Righteousness while keeping Holy Shield up constantly.
    One more reason paladin is good for offtanking, especialy if he has to tank a lot of targets is hish High Block Chance.

    Blood DK is the most rewarding spec when it comes to tanking if u manage to master it.
    Blood Tap with Sindra Trinket and AMS, Vampiric Blood with ToC 25m hc Trinket, Icebound, Army of the Dead with Death Pact, Rune Tap, Death Strike, all those things timed well will make a Blood DK as viable as Bear tank when it comes to main tanking when it comes to survability.
    When it comes to Aggro u can have both it and Self Healing, so you need to work your way and balance IT spam and DS usage perfectly, or else u might die or make your DPS die.
    This is why BDKs are the hardest and the most rewarding in the tanking world from my pov.

    When it comes to the DMG as some said, which can be important when chaising hard enrage timers, Bear does Most DPS when it comes to Single Target, Paladin follows him right after with a bit higher AoE DMG output, while DKs have solid Single Target DMG with complete garbage AoE potential.

    So, if u want to roll a DK, go for it... If u master it well, i doubt u will have hard time getting in raids.
    On top of it all, Double Aura from DK tank can be really usefull in 10m Raids aswell as in 25m raids, which can make up for the less personal DPS with the use of Hysteria, so have that in mind aswell...

    As for Frost DK Tank, Unholy DK Tank, No. Simple. Nope. Dont use them.
    U dont see a lot of Survival Hunters DPSing, and for that same reason there is no need for you to go Frost or Unholy cos Blood is better.
    They are simply weaker than Blood in any fight in ICC. Or in any encounter in whole WotLK for that matter.
    If a spec works better on Hardest Hitting Boss in the Game, where u HAVE to use all the CDs u have or u will die, it will work just as good on Bosses that dont require u to use Any CD most of the time, and can be tanked without the use of Icebound for the whole fight.

    As for Warrior tanks, why chose the weakest link out of 4?
    If u want or have fun with Prot War, play it, but dont moan or QQ when people decide to chose something more reliable over you.
    Sure, safeguard and Sunder Armors can be usefull when offtanking, but in my eyes, Paladin is a lot better choice when looking at the bigger picture...
    Im not saying u cant tank with Warriors, people have proven that Warriors can be capable tanks, but other tank options are simply better regardless.

  10. 3 Weeks Ago  
    I stand corrected on WotN's behavior. It doesn't quite mirror Ardent's functionality; it mitigates the entirety of the hit that took you below 35%. This is still essentially an EHP increase, but rather than the last 35% of your HP having a flat increase in value, it's the portion of your health pool that gets crossed past the 35% mark.

    DamnOriginal's assessment that this is actually even better for raiding is correct. This is even more so true on fights like heroic LK, where huge surges of damage are constantly involved.

    When I talk about blocking with regard to Druids I'm referring to Savage Defense. In end-game gear Druids and Paladins have comparable blocking frequencies and block values, when it comes to tanking a single target. The effectiveness of Savage Defense's block as a mitigation tool withers quickly the more targets you're tanking, but for the purposes of boss-tanking comparisons this simplification is helpful. Warrior tanks have slightly lower Block Values than both these classes, and a much lower blocking frequency (they don't have a talent like Holy Shield, which accounts for a lot of a Paladin's blocks).
    Edited: 3 Weeks Ago

  11. 3 Weeks Ago  
    I stand corrected on WotN's behavior. It doesn't quite mirror Ardent's functionality; it mitigates the entirety of the hit that took you below 35%. This is still essentially an EHP increase, but rather than the last 35% of your HP having a flat increase in value, it's the portion of your health pool that gets crossed past the 35% mark.
    Something I noticed that is mildly amusing is that Ardent is currently scripted as an absorb mechanic, rather than a straight damage reduction.

    When I talk about blocking with regard to Druids I'm referring to Savage Defense. In end-game gear Druids and Paladins have comparable blocking frequencies and block values, when it comes to tanking a single target. The effectiveness of Savage Defense's block as a mitigation tool withers quickly the more targets you're tanking, but for the purposes of boss-tanking comparisons this simplification is helpful. Warrior tanks have slightly lower Block Values than both these classes, and a much lower blocking frequency (they don't have a talent like Holy Shield, which accounts for a lot of a Paladin's blocks).
    For a single target tanking situation, the comparison is fine. But if you're going to be teaching people (talking about newbies here, I don't think people who already know how to play are going to bother reading such material unless they want to give input themselves), you need to be able to explain what is different, why, and when it is applicable. Especially when you consider that ICC isn't the only content that people play through.

  12. 3 Weeks Ago  
    Something I noticed that is mildly amusing is that Ardent is currently scripted as an absorb mechanic, rather than a straight damage reduction.
    Not sure what's amusing about that considering that's exactly how these talents are supposed to work.

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